saambas
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Landing Gear Never Retracted Dash 8 RJ Flight

Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:17 am

In December 2006 I took a Dash8 400 series flight on Royal Jordanian Airlines from Aleppo, Syria to Amman, Jordon.

I was seated directly next to the landing gear, and was amazed to find they were completely extended during the whole flight!
There was no announcement from the Captain about any issues with the plane, however I did note that the flight time was a lot longer than usual. Flight time on this sector is usually around 45 minutes, but today we were in the air for around 1.25 minutes.
It was a very cold morning in Aleppo (possibly still below 0C when we took off), and the aircraft had been overnighted on the turn around.

Is this common on Dash8 flights? My immediate thought was their was a problem with the gear but captain just decided to continue to Amman with the gear extended.

Can anyone think of any reason or issue with this situation?
 
lowrider
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RE: Landing Gear Never Retracted Dash 8 RJ Flight

Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:30 am

The gear may have been pinned down for a maintenance reason. Some aircraft are permitted to conduct revenue flights like this. There are a variety of performance issues to account for, but it does not diminish safety. Cruise speed would probably be affected, and it would require more fuel, but if the only other option may have been a cancellation.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Landing Gear Never Retracted Dash 8 RJ Flight

Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:17 pm

Mx issue requiring the Gear to be extended for Flight,thus need for speed reduction to avoid Gear damage.
Out here though it would need to be a ferry flight & not a revenue flight.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
PGNCS
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RE: Landing Gear Never Retracted Dash 8 RJ Flight

Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:46 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 2):
Mx issue requiring the Gear to be extended for Flight,thus need for speed reduction to avoid Gear damage.
Out here though it would need to be a ferry flight & not a revenue flight.

Here it depends on what's in the MEL...some aircraft in our fleet must be ferried with no passengers onboard, while others are allowed to operate in revenue service with passengers with the gear down. (I honestly don't know why the difference exists.)

Obviously this is normally a one time deal to get the plane to a maintenance station to repair whatever the problem is. The plane will have to be operated below the maximum gear extended speed, which will increase flight time significantly. Also increasing significantly (VERY significantly, in fact) will be fuel burn, as others have alluded to.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Landing Gear Never Retracted Dash 8 RJ Flight

Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:38 am



Quoting PGNCS (Reply 3):
(I honestly don't know why the difference exists.)

Obviously this is normally a one time deal to get the plane to a maintenance station to repair whatever the problem is.

Out here the justification by the Regulatory Authorities is to avoid Pax casualties in case of a ferry,as purpose is to get the aircraft to a Mx base for repairs hence no revenue service provided.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
DashTrash
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RE: Landing Gear Never Retracted Dash 8 RJ Flight

Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:24 pm



Quoting PGNCS (Reply 3):
Here it depends on what's in the MEL...some aircraft in our fleet must be ferried with no passengers onboard, while others are allowed to operate in revenue service with passengers with the gear down. (I honestly don't know why the difference exists.)

Obviously this is normally a one time deal to get the plane to a maintenance station to repair whatever the problem is. The plane will have to be operated below the maximum gear extended speed, which will increase flight time significantly. Also increasing significantly (VERY significantly, in fact) will be fuel burn, as others have alluded to.

Single engine performance is why. A -100 isn't going to climb much on one motor and much weight in it. A -300 would be a little better, but not much.

I had to ferry one from HXD-SBY with the gear pinned a few years ago. Empty, no flight attendant, it wouldn't go much over 10,000 ft, and it wouldn't go anywhere near the 172 kt Vle when we got there. It'll go past 172 kts at lower altitudes with the gear down, but single engine performance on the Dash is lousy with the gear down.

Don't know why someone would leave it down on a revenue flight unless they forgot to retract it. That has happened before....
 
charlienorth
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RE: Landing Gear Never Retracted Dash 8 RJ Flight

Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:22 pm



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 1):
The gear may have been pinned down for a maintenance reason. Some aircraft are permitted to conduct revenue flights like this. There are a variety of performance issues to account for, but it does not diminish safety. Cruise speed would probably be affected, and it would require more fuel, but if the only other option may have been a cancellation

At simmons?AMR Eagle we sometimes needed to place the gear system (SD360 & ATR's) on MEL with the provision they were locked down,we would use thes aircraft on ORD-MKE & ORD-SBN trips.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Landing Gear Never Retracted Dash 8 RJ Flight

Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:39 am



Quoting PGNCS (Reply 3):
some aircraft in our fleet must be ferried with no passengers onboard, while others are allowed to operate in revenue service with passengers with the gear down.

Is this common for all US Airlines?
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
PGNCS
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RE: Landing Gear Never Retracted Dash 8 RJ Flight

Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:28 am



Quoting DashTrash (Reply 5):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 3):
Here it depends on what's in the MEL...some aircraft in our fleet must be ferried with no passengers onboard, while others are allowed to operate in revenue service with passengers with the gear down. (I honestly don't know why the difference exists.)

Obviously this is normally a one time deal to get the plane to a maintenance station to repair whatever the problem is. The plane will have to be operated below the maximum gear extended speed, which will increase flight time significantly. Also increasing significantly (VERY significantly, in fact) will be fuel burn, as others have alluded to.

Single engine performance is why. A -100 isn't going to climb much on one motor and much weight in it. A -300 would be a little better, but not much.

Sorry Dash, I wasn't specific enough. I was not talking specifically about a single aircraft type (Dash 8) or set of subtypes. I was referring to a very large fleet of several types (and many variants) of large turbojets. Obviously Climb Limit Weight has to be considered for the gear down condition, but for the sectors in question it would not be limiting on any of the types. I apologize if I was unclear. It seems as though certain manufacturers elected to allow it for some models, and others elected not to.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 7):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 3):
some aircraft in our fleet must be ferried with no passengers onboard, while others are allowed to operate in revenue service with passengers with the gear down.

Is this common for all US Airlines?

I don't know about all US airlines, but it is common at my current airline and the other two I have worked for as well. I'm sorry I can't be completely authoritative, I don't have a good link to the FAA MMELs.
 
A10WARTHOG
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RE: Landing Gear Never Retracted Dash 8 RJ Flight

Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:15 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 7):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 3):
some aircraft in our fleet must be ferried with no passengers onboard, while others are allowed to operate in revenue service with passengers with the gear down.

Is this common for all US Airlines?

I think the big difference is it all depends on the manufacture and I would say the airline. The ERJ I worked you could not MEL the retraction/extendtion system, so if the plane had to fly gear down it was pinned and ferried. But I have heard of CRJ flying revenue with gear down and pinned.

I would also think the airline MOC and dispatch would take into account: Do you have a spare aircraft that can make the trip and where does the broke plane go to be fixed? Sometime the hubs are not the best place to take the plane, if they are busy and you have an outstation that can fix the plane, ferry the plane there get it fixed and repo it where you need it.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Landing Gear Never Retracted Dash 8 RJ Flight

Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:29 pm



Quoting A10WARTHOG (Reply 9):
Sometime the hubs are not the best place to take the plane, if they are busy and you have an outstation that can fix the plane, ferry the plane there get it fixed and repo it where you need it.

L/G problems require at times a retraction test, that needs a Hangar.Outstations it might be tougher to get one on hire cheap.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
A10WARTHOG
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RE: Landing Gear Never Retracted Dash 8 RJ Flight

Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:20 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 10):
Outstations it might be tougher to get one on hire cheap.

I should have chose better wording, I mean an outstation with airline MX personal there. Many have a hangar. The one I worked at we had hangar that could hold three airplanes. From our station we only flew to two locations. They would ferry in planes that where broke, to take the load off the hubs.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Landing Gear Never Retracted Dash 8 RJ Flight

Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:37 am



Quoting A10WARTHOG (Reply 11):

True if the company has a hangar at a less congested place,its def cheaper then.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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