jcchristie
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:36 pm

I realize that it would be difficult for a triple seven to use the gates at LGA. But could it take off on those runways, are they long enough?
 
brilondon
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:44 pm

With very little fuel and passengers on full flaps and full power the answer is yes. They have 767-300's leave from LGA so I don't think that it such a stretch for a B777 to do the same.

[Edited 2008-08-18 14:52:15]
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A342
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:45 pm

With a light load, yes.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
LHR777
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:46 pm

I don't think it would be a problem, considering L1011's and DC10's have used LGA.
 
jcchristie
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:08 pm

yeah and they used to have 767-400's there too.
 
LGAtoIND
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:15 pm

With a light load yes, the 777 can take off on LGA's 7000 ft runways. The problem is not the runway length, however it is that the Port Authority/FAA have restricted LGA to all planes larger than a 767-400 due to the strain that the weight puts on the piers and the larger length of the plane's wingspan.
 
Viscount724
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:21 pm



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 3):
I don't think it would be a problem, considering L1011's and DC10's have used LGA.

The L1011-1 and DC-10-10 were specifically designed to be able to operate at LGA.


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However I think they were limited to only a few gates due to the congested ramp area.. The 777's approximate 50 ft greater wingspan would likely be a serious problem. LGA also has weight limits due to portions of the runways being suspended on pylons over the water. Even the lightest non-ER 777-200 has an empty weight 25% greater than the L1011-1 and DC-10-10. That could well be a another problem.
 
Alitalia744
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:32 pm



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
The L1011-1 and DC-10-10 were specifically designed to be able to operate at LGA.

Damn what I would give to see a D10 or L10 coming round the bend on an expressway approach!!!!
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STT757
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:37 pm

Remember that part of one runway is actually a pier, the weight and size of the landing dictate whether or not an aircraft can operate from LGA.
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N104UA
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:40 pm

Is there a noise ordinance in LGA with how close the city is to the airport
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STT757
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:43 pm



Quoting N104UA (Reply 9):
Is there a noise ordinance in LGA with how close the city is to the airport

The airport is in the City, Queens. The City of New York is more than just Manhattan, there's Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens and Staten Island.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
N104UA
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:48 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):
The airport is in the City, Queens. The City of New York is more than just Manhattan, there's Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens and Staten Island.

I know about the burrows I am in NYC 4 times a year and it is right on the river and surrounded by many burrows
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STT757
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:03 pm

Quoting N104UA (Reply 11):
I know about the burrows I am in NYC 4 times a year and it is right on the river and surrounded by many burrows

Borough, I was born in the forgotten borough (Staten Island). There's not different rules in different Boroughs, what goes for the residents of Manhattan goes for the residents of the other four boroughs. Keep in mind that some of the boroughs like Queens have a high population concentrations than Manhattan, Manhattan is the 3rd most populated Borough (barely edging out the Bronx). Brooklyn and Queens is where they biggest chunk of population of the City of New York reside.

Generally no matter where the airport if flying over a populated area could be avoided they will route arrivals departures that way, at Newark Airport aircraft that depart runway 4L will make a very sharp left turn for noise abatement. They try to avoid departing over populated areas which is generally when aircraft noise is at it's highest decibels, aircraft departing Newark Airport make a sharp left bank to climb out over Port Newark and the Arthur Kill between Staten Island and New Jersey which is a highly industrialized area and sparsely populated.

[Edited 2008-08-18 16:07:03]
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flflyer
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:32 pm

I use to fly DL ATL-LGA on the 1011 and they would put 300 pax on those. I was surprised that a 777 would be that much (25%) heavier.
 
Alitalia744
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:43 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 12):
at Newark Airport aircraft that depart runway 4L will make a very sharp left turn for noise abatement.

Don't aircraft departing 4L actually make a RIGHT turn?
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STT757
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:44 pm

The L-1011 was designed with LGA in mind as per their largest customers Eastern and Delta, I believe the DC-10-10 was also in the running for Eastern and Delta before their L-1011 orders thus the DC-10-10 was also designed with LGA's limitations in mind during design.

IIRC Eastern had to wait a while to get their A300s certified to operate from LGA, the Port Authority reinforced their pier runway pilings in order to accommodated the Eastern A300s. Eastern wanted to operate the A300s on their BOS-LGA-DCA shuttle, the Port Authority was able to accommodate the A300s through reinforcing the piers. DCA for whatever reasons refused to allow Eastern to operate the A300 to that airport.

Something about the A300s landing gear meant that the force of the landings were not as evenly distributed as the L-1011 and DC-10-10s, more of the force of the A300 landing was focused onto a smaller area.
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STT757
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:46 pm



Quoting FLFlyer (Reply 13):
I use to fly DL ATL-LGA on the 1011 and they would put 300 pax on those.

I flew on a Eastern Airlines L-1011 from LGA-MIA during Christmas 1989, we departed during a pretty good snow storm which caused for a little nervousness during departure.
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jfk777
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:09 am

The 777 is a monster, DC-10 or L-1011 opertating at LGA had a limit of about 400K pounds. Since the flights were to Florida or ORD mostly, they didn't carry the full load for LAX or SFO. LGA has a 1500 mile limit.
 
tinpusher007
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:42 am



Quoting Brilondon (Reply 1):
With very little fuel and passengers on full flaps and full power the answer is yes. They have 767-300's leave from LGA so I don't think that it such a stretch for a B777 to do the same

Full power yes, but I would think full flaps is going to add much more drag than lift. Perhaps a higher than normal take-off flap setting but I don't know about full. Any 777 drivers care to shed some light on this?
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Qantas744er
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:10 am



Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 18):
Full power yes, but I would think full flaps is going to add much more drag than lift. Perhaps a higher than normal take-off flap setting but I don't know about full. Any 777 drivers care to shed some light on this?

Flap detents on the 777 are 1, 5, 15, 20, 25, 30

Available for T/O are 5, and 15 but this depends on airline, weight, runway length, weather, etc. The 772's will use flaps 5 most of the time and most 773 operators will use flaps 15.

Flaps 5 will result in longer T/O roll, faster T/O speed but better initial climb rate with less drag.

Flaps 15 will result in shorter T/O roll, slower T/O speed but slower initial climb rate with more drag.

For landing flaps 25, or 30. most operators use 30 but with noise abatement regulations and conditions allowing it some will use 25. Simply depends on airline SOP and conditions.

Leo  Smile
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71Zulu
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:58 am

We had a MIA-LAX AA 777 divert to MSY last year and when they left, they took off from the 7,000 foot runway 1. Don't know the passenger or cargo load but it flew the 4 hours to LAX.
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DC8FanJet
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:10 am

I think the issue was distance between the gear for LGA's piers. DC-10 & L1011 were
designed specifically to meet the restrictions. Also, the shorter flights held down
take-off weight.

777 wouldn't have any noise issues, it's pretty quiet even by comparison to the
DC-10/L1011's.
 
UPS757Pilot
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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:33 am



Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 19):

What about Flaps 20 for T/O? We can do it in the 757/767.
 
Qantas744er
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RE: 777 @ LGA -

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:00 am



Quoting UPS757Pilot (Reply 22):
What about Flaps 20 for T/O? We can do it in the 757/767.

Not a T/O setting on the 777.

Leo
You live and you die, by the FMA
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: 777 @ LGA -

Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:11 pm



Quoting FLFlyer (Reply 13):
I use to fly DL ATL-LGA on the 1011 and they would put 300 pax on those. I was surprised that a 777 would be that much (25%) heavier.

Well, the 777 can go a tad further.  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
OPNLguy
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RE: 777 @ LGA -

Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:07 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):
Remember that part of one runway is actually a pier, the weight and size of the landing dictate whether or not an aircraft can operate from LGA.

Back in the early 1980s when we (Air Florida) had our brand-stinkin' new 727-200s with the -17R engined, the aircraft's 205,000 max takeoff weight was restricted to 176,000 lbs. by the pier limit... A big hit...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
jetstar
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RE: 777 @ LGA -

Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:50 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 14):
Something about the A300s landing gear meant that the force of the landings were not as evenly distributed as the L-1011 and DC-10-10s, more of the force of the A300 landing was focused onto a smaller area.

I read many years ago that when Airbus was designing the A-300, the Port Authority send a letter of the requirements for the landing gear spacing that was required to operate out of LGA. Both the Dc-10 and the L-1011 main landing rear was spaced far enough apart to allow the weight to be distributed of the support piers of the section of the runways that extend out into Flushing Bay.

Apparently Airbus ignored this letter and when Eastern applied to operate their new A-300’s out of LGA, the Port Authority denied the application because of the spacing of the main landing gear.

Airbus managed to somehow space the wheels out apart just enough that it met the minimums required and the Port Authority allowed the A-300 to operate out of LGA.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 14):
DCA for whatever reasons refused to allow Eastern to operate the A300 to that airport.

The reason that Eastern could not operate the A-300 into DCA is that the airport because of limited gate space no widebody’s are allowed into DCA, it had nothing to do with the A-300
 
9VSRH
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RE: 777 @ LGA -

Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:33 am



Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 23):
Quoting UPS757Pilot (Reply 22):
What about Flaps 20 for T/O? We can do it in the 757/767.

Not a T/O setting on the 777.

Leo

I just watched a JustPlanes video of the 777-200ER (Austrian, VIE-KUL-SYD and back. The 777 took off from runway 07 at YSSY and used flap 20 for take off.
 
AAH732UAL
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RE: 777 @ LGA -

Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:37 am



Quoting Jcchristie (Thread starter):
777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?

Well........... UA lands 777s at OGG. IIRC OGG is the limit for the 777 and 767 in regards to UA SOPs. OGG is about 6,000....... so LGA being 1000+ feet longer, it is possible as others have shown above. Heck, I think a 747-400 could with 500-700 feet more of runway at LGA according to the limit of about 7500 feet runways for UA 747s  Smile
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CX Flyboy
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RE: 777 @ LGA -

Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:18 pm



Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 19):
Available for T/O are 5, and 15 but this depends on airline, weight, runway length, weather, etc. The 772's will use flaps 5 most of the time and most 773 operators will use flaps 15.

yes Flaps 20 is indeed an approved takeoff setting for the 777. I have used it a number of times off runways when we have been heavy or short runways. Without looking at the data I would have no idea if one could depart from LGA. How long is the runway there?
 
71Zulu
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RE: 777 @ LGA -

Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:39 pm

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0808/00289AD.PDF

Runways at LGA are 7001 and 7003 feet.
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Starlionblue
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RE: 777 @ LGA -

Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:49 pm



Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 30):
Runways at LGA are 7001 and 7003 feet.

Yeah but they're surrounded by NIMBYs. I guess you could try to clear them with the jetblast.  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
YULYMX
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RE: 777 @ LGA -

Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:55 pm

B777 from LGA could do a 4-5 hours flight with fuel load... no more
 
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Moose135
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RE: 777 @ LGA -

Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:53 pm



Quoting YULYMX (Reply 32):
B777 from LGA could do a 4-5 hours flight with fuel load... no more

Which would fit in well with LGA's perimeter rule...but certainly a waste of the aircraft's capabilities.
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Starlionblue
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RE: 777 @ LGA -

Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:00 pm



Quoting Moose135 (Reply 33):
Quoting YULYMX (Reply 32):
B777 from LGA could do a 4-5 hours flight with fuel load... no more

Which would fit in well with LGA's perimeter rule...but certainly a waste of the aircraft's capabilities.

Not if LGA were in Japan.  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Moose135
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RE: 777 @ LGA -

Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:20 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 34):

Quoting Moose135 (Reply 33):
Quoting YULYMX (Reply 32):
B777 from LGA could do a 4-5 hours flight with fuel load... no more

Which would fit in well with LGA's perimeter rule...but certainly a waste of the aircraft's capabilities.

Not if LGA were in Japan. Wink

But why send one 777 when you can send 126 RJs?  Big grin
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Starlionblue
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RE: 777 @ LGA -

Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:21 am



Quoting Moose135 (Reply 35):

But why send one 777 when you can send 126 RJs?

I didn't want to say it myself. Big grin Jokes aside it is awful. Not even for the wastefulness. More for the absence of resilience in a market downturn...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

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