boeing767mech
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Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:34 am

Time to vent.

The other day I had a 757 come in with a couple write ups. Most of the write ups where no brainers, (tray tables and reading lights). But the airplane came if with a N/G disagree status message and a 3 knob throttle split on climb out. The two mechanics assigned to work the airplane took care of the check and the no brainers, while I looked up the message and information on what to do with the throttle split. Per the BFIM the N/G status message was okay for service since it happened during taxi in. I looking in the BFIM and the MM for the throttle split, I wasn't able to pin point the problem so I talked with tech services and they instructed us what to do. After bite checking the EEC and the BVCU we found no faults, tech services then instructed us to do a full power engine run so we can see if we had a leak in the PT2 system giving us a EPR split.

I went out and ran the engines and 5K of fuel later we found nothing, the engines went up like they where controlled by one lever, NO SPLIT, probe heat on or off, engine anti ice on or off, bleeds on or off, NO SPLIT, No faults with the ADC's and the TMC's so I signed off the airplane and returned it to service.

I gave the pilot the log book and he made a remark accusing me of pencil whipping the airplane. Now that pissed me off, I have NEVER pencil whipped an airplane to get it out of town. I have no problem grounding an airplane if it is not right.

Anyway...... Have any of you technicians or engineers had any pilots accuse you of pencil whipping an airplane, When you return an airplane to service after no faults where found??

David

[Edited 2008-08-19 18:39:12]
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
474218
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:27 am



Quoting Boeing767mech (Thread starter):
Anyway...... Have any of you technicians or engineers had any pilots accuse you of pencil whipping an airplane, When you return an airplane to service after no faults where found??

If you ran the engines and no fault found was found, how can that be considered pencil whipping. If you had not ran the engine and signed it off that would be "pencil whipping" the problem.

I once flew from California to Ireland to check out a flight controls problem. After two days of trouble shooting I could not find a fault. The only thing the pilot asked is that I fly with him on the next flight. Which I did and the problem did not reappear.
 
acNDTTech
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:39 am

My grand father always told me this, "There are more horses a##es in this world than there are horses." You just happen to run into one that nite.
 
flyf15
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:48 am

There are a couple pilots and a couple mechanics that make it bad for everyone.

At my airline, 99% of the time, our mechanics do a completely exceptional job. I'm very proud of our maintenance team. But, every once in a while, something pretty serious happens to us or something seems pretty busted and we get nothing but a 15 second check and a signoff saying its working fine... even if it was obviously broken and written up multiple times before. Then you have the one pilot who gets really really bent out of shape encounter this one mechanic at some point that pencil-whips stuff and from that day forth, that mechanic and that pilot both think the other employee groups are a bunch of idiots.

I wouldn't take any of it personally. Us pilots have all eyes staring at us (just as you mechanics do) and we have to cover ourselves. Plus, its our lives on the line when something goes wrong and some people get pretty distraught when they feel like they're not being taken seriously. All in all though, aside from the few and far between bad apples, its usually just a case of lack of information being shared... the pilots probably had no clue that you went through such an extensive test process before signing it off and you may not have any clue as to how broken the pilot felt the airplane was and how much it affected the flight. Couple that with a bad attitude from previous experiences and people walk away unhappy.
 
stratosphere
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:49 am



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 3):
There are a couple pilots and a couple mechanics that make it bad for everyone.

I whole heartedly agree with this statement..We had an a/c (I will not mention stations or names) that a double block turnback for a takeoff warning problem. It was just out of check so it was a ferry crew taking it back. We do not have mx at this station so an MX guy from another station drove to the affected station. Well he checked out the system from A to Z and no trouble found.( this a/c also had no history for this problem) So he called the crew back to the a/c from the hotel and told them the score.( the MX was friends with the crew).Well they finally fessed up that they had no problem and wanted to stay in town for whatever reason..Now this really pissed me off I had to do a lot of work not to mention costing the company money. I almost pondered going up the chain of command to get these pilots repremaned at the very least but in the end it would have been hard to prove and I got over it before the end of my shift..But you are right both pilots and mechanics are guilty of doing stupid things.
 
leftwing
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:27 am

May 21, 2003 - N.C. Crash Investigators Eye Maintenance

WASHINGTON (USA) - Safety investigators zeroed in Tuesday on airplane maintenance by outside contractors at a hearing into the cause of the plane crash that killed 21 people in Charlotte, North Carolina, on Jan. 8.


After such a case can you really blame the pilots....
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:58 am



Quoting Boeing767mech (Thread starter):
I gave the pilot the log book and he made a remark accusing me of pencil whipping the airplane

What did you tell him after that comment.
I guess the pilot does not know you well,If he had looked at the records,the Fuel consumed for the High power run would have told him something & if the job was not done properly,it would have reoccured & the next halt would have been inked in the PDR,no AME would want that.

I guess it depends on the individual concerned.

What I'm trying to figure out is what caused the throttle stagger reported earlier.I suggest check the lines to the EPR Tx,I won't be surprised if you find some blockage.

Was there any further update on that Aircraft later on?

regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
acNDTTech
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:23 am

What is throttle stagger?
 
boeing767mech
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:34 am

Quoting AcNDTTech (Reply 7):
What is throttle stagger?

Throttle stagger is a misalignment in the throttles with the engine readings matched, Most airplanes allow you to have a 3/4 knob split.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Middl...C_&prev_id=0186897&next_id=0177762

MEL if we had a blocked EPR line it would have shown up during the engine run, we would not have gotten a increase in EPR with the engine spooling up.

I'm going back to work tonight and first thing I'm looking up is my pencil whipped airplane. LOL

David

[Edited 2008-08-20 03:48:50]
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
fr8mech
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:55 am

When one of my folks' integrity is challenged by the flight crew, I call the flight crew management type and pull the mechanic from the aircraft. Our work is done. The flight crew has a clean, legal logbook. Bye-bye.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
andz
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:30 pm



Quoting AcNDTTech (Reply 7):
What is throttle stagger?

I figured that one out, what is pencil whipped?
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:22 pm



Quoting Andz (Reply 10):

I figured that one out, what is pencil whipped?

My understanding (entirely from this thread) is that instead of actually fixing/diagnose the problem, the mechanics do some fancy paperwork to make it seem like the problem is fixed/diagnosed.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Mastropiero
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:28 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):

My understanding (entirely from this thread) is that instead of actually fixing/diagnose the problem, the mechanics do some fancy paperwork to make it seem like the problem is fixed/diagnosed.

That is what I understand too. I have a question about the throttle missalignment: when you pull back the throttles to idle, taking as an example the picture Boeing767mech posted, all four levers will go alll the way back, or will they stay in the same position? Asuming all four go back all the way, that will mean that when pushing them forward to take off power there will be a slight difference between the power each engines provides. Is it noticeable, or it is neglectable at take off and only when cruising the crew decides to fiddle with the levers untilll all four engines have the same reding?

Thanks.
 Smile
 
boeing767mech
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:54 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
My understanding (entirely from this thread) is that instead of actually fixing/diagnose the problem, the mechanics do some fancy paperwork to make it seem like the problem is fixed/diagnosed.

You must be the pilot I talked to. We and I troubleshot the write up to the letter of the maintainence manual, we also contacted tech services for there advice and guidance on the problem since I don't know everything. So with the information we where given and all the checks and engine runs we did there was no problem, the throttles where matched, or did you miss this statment

Quoting Boeing767mech (Thread starter):
I went out and ran the engines and 5K of fuel later we found nothing, the engines went up like they where controlled by one lever, NO SPLIT, probe heat on or off, engine anti ice on or off, bleeds on or off, NO SPLIT, No faults with the ADC's and the TMC's so I signed off the airplane and returned it to service

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:01 pm



Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 13):
You must be the pilot I talked to.

 rotfl  I could be him. Does he get laid a lot?  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
aogdesk
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:38 pm

If a captain verbally accused me of whipping that, I'd be all over him. In my younger days I'd just cough in his direction (give him the "asshole" cough). Now that I'm a big boy....notice I didn't say grown up or mature......I'd humiliate him in front of his F/O. Not necessarily the right thing to do, but I give people too much respect to have someone come back at me like that.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:00 pm



Quoting Boeing767mech (Thread starter):
I gave the pilot the log book and he made a remark accusing me of pencil whipping the airplane. Now that pissed me off, I have NEVER pencil whipped an airplane to get it out of town. I have no problem grounding an airplane if it is not right.

I'm genuinely sorry that a pilot treated you that way. I will say that I HAVE seen MX pencil whipped at several operators, as have most people who have been around a while, but it always has stood out like a sore thumb and is obviously absent here.

There are problem pilots and problem mechanics, just like in every other profession: I apologize on behalf of my profession for the lack of professionalism from the flight crew. Please realize that the vast majority of us both respect and appreciate what you do.
 
474218
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:00 pm

Boeing767mech:

Not worry about the pilots comments, I can guarantee that most pilots know a lot less about how the aircraft actually works than most mechanics.

His job is to drive the plane, yours is to repair it. As long as you didn't make any remarks in the log book that the pilot who wrote up the problem didn't know what is was doing, there is no reason that a pilot should criticize your corrective action.

You are both professionals and in my opinion for him to question your actions, before he had actually flown the aircraft verifying either the problem still existed or was corrected, was very un-professional.
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:46 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6):
Was there any further update on that Aircraft later on?

MEL, a question mark???
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
kbfispotter
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:41 pm



Quoting Boeing767mech (Thread starter):
Anyway...... Have any of you technicians or engineers had any pilots accuse you of pencil whipping an airplane, When you return an airplane to service after no faults where found??

I have never been acccused of pencil whiping by a flightcrew, but I have had a flight crew tell me to (and I quote) "Just pencil whip it to get us out of here... That is what you do, is it not?" That pilot was having a bad day and wanted to get the heck out of SEA.

Boeing767mech, I have had several issues come up with our aircraft that I have ops checked the hell out of, and could not find anything wrong, and signed it off. The airplane flys fine for a day or so, then the original problem comes back... It actually happened to me a few weeks ago. One of our planes pulled back into the gate after engine start because the fuel inlet temp on the #2 engine was spiked in the red. I go out there, run the aircraft, found no issues, open the cowl, clean the cannon plug, and run it again, still no issues. I signed the plane off for return to service. The same crew boards the plane to take it out, the pax load, and the plane pushes back again. This time the got out to the runway when the problem came back. I get sent back out to the airplane, and get scolding looks from the captain, who tells me "I thought you fixed it?" When I told him what I saw last time, he just sat and glared at me...

We have a challenging job at times, but I do love it!!!

Kris
Proud to be an A&P!!!
 
474218
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:51 pm



Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 19):
The airplane flys fine for a day or so, then the original problem comes back... It actually happened to me a few weeks ago.

After three (3) sectors (flights) without a re-ocurrance we considered the problem fixed.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:15 pm



Quoting Boeing767mech (Thread starter):
I gave the pilot the log book and he made a remark accusing me of pencil whipping the airplane.

I think I'd have made an issue of it then and there. I think I'd have taken back the logbook and told the pilot that in view of the fact that he did not have confidence in the maitenance performed it was clearly a matter to be settled between supervisors - yours and his.

I'm sure you'd have had an instant apology from him.

If not, then the subsequent delay was on him and him alone because he made a judgement (the mx was not proper) that he was not remotely qualified to make even if he had an A&P.

Despite the complete truth of this...

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 3):
There are a couple pilots and a couple mechanics that make it bad for everyone.

...I think the knothead would have realized that he'd impugned the reputation of a licensed professional whose career depends in large part on his reputation. He was way out of line and he should have known it.

I'm very proud of my ATP and the things I had to learn and accomplish to get it. I'm similarly proud of my dispatcher license and experience. But I'll tell you what I'm not - I'm not a mechanic.

I've seen unsatisfying writeoffs for a logbook squawk, who hasn't? But we all know, sometimes the troubleshooting is not that straighforward. "Intermittent" squawks can be frustrating. I've even seen flight control anomalies that defied solution for weeks despite some very determined maintenance efforts.

In my opinion the guy was out of line. In my experience the chief pilot would side with maintenance so long as the procedures performed were those called for by the writeup. And I've worked for a lot of chief pilots.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
ex52tech
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:24 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 17):
Not worry about the pilots comments, I can guarantee that most pilots know a lot less about how the aircraft actually works than most mechanics.

I could not have said that better myself, and I have said something to that effect to more than one pilot over the years. That pilot showed you exactly how much he didn't know about the system by making that statement.
"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:44 pm



Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 8):

Throttle stagger is a misalignment in the throttles with the engine readings matched, Most airplanes allow you to have a 3/4 knob split.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Middl...77762

Just wondering, why is this tolerated on older "legacy" planes. Do the throttles get out of alignment easily/frequently, or is it too complicated to rig them each time they come out of alignment?
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:32 pm



Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 8):
MEL if we had a blocked EPR line it would have shown up during the engine run, we would not have gotten a increase in EPR with the engine spooling up.

Trust me I've seen a snag on the RB211-535C that had an EPR split only sometimes in Air & on Ground it was fine.If the EPRs were matched,The Lower EPR side had all parameters high.If N1 was matched ,both sides patameters were equal except EPR low on the faulty side.
It took the cleaning of the line & Three EPR Tx to solve it.

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 18):
MEL, a question mark???

Damn.....sorry....Bad habit....heres compensation ???
regds
MEL...
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
474218
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:45 pm



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 23):
Just wondering, why is this tolerated on older "legacy" planes. Do the throttles get out of alignment easily/frequently, or is it too complicated to rig them each time they come out of alignment?

Throttle stagger is not limited "legacy" planes. Addtionally, its not only a case of the system getting out of rig, it may be an internal problem with the engine.

Ref: http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=get...taPrefix=html&identifier=ADA221541
 
acNDTTech
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:06 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 25):
Throttle stagger is not limited "legacy" planes. Addtionally, its not only a case of the system getting out of rig, it may be an internal problem with the engine.

Could this happen in a FADEC equipped aircraft?
 
iairallie
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:13 pm



Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 13):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
My understanding (entirely from this thread) is that instead of actually fixing/diagnose the problem, the mechanics do some fancy paperwork to make it seem like the problem is fixed/diagnosed.

You must be the pilot I talked to. We and I troubleshot the write up to the letter of the maintainence manual, we also contacted tech services for there advice and guidance on the problem since I don't know everything. So with the information we where given and all the checks and engine runs we did there was no problem, the throttles where matched, or did you miss this statment

I don't think he missed the statement but you certainly missed the fact that Starlionblue was defining pencil whipping for someone who asked what it was not accusing you of doing it.

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 15):
If a captain verbally accused me of whipping that, I'd be all over him. In my younger days I'd just cough in his direction (give him the "asshole" cough). Now that I'm a big boy....notice I didn't say grown up or mature......I'd humiliate him in front of his F/O. Not necessarily the right thing to do, but I give people too much respect to have someone come back at me like that.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 21):
I think I'd have made an issue of it then and there. I think I'd have taken back the logbook and told the pilot that in view of the fact that he did not have confidence in the maitenance performed it was clearly a matter to be settled between supervisors - yours and his.

Is it really so difficult to try and understand where the pilot was coming from and not take it personally? The pilot wanted reassurance that his concerns were taken seriously and that the plane was safe to fly out. It is not an unreasonable concern as some of you have mentioned there are mechanics out there who do pencil whip on occasion. The pilot doesn't know you and doesn't know which sort you are so it is nothing personal.

The mature response would be to not take it as a personal attack then take a second to explain and talk him through an overview of what you did and why you felt comfortable signing off. "I'm sorry you feel that way but I did take the write up seriously. We did x then y and z. I feel confident that the aircraft is safe". Is that so difficult?
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
474218
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:30 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 27):
Is it really so difficult to try and understand where the pilot was coming from and not take it personally? The pilot wanted reassurance that his concerns were taken seriously and that the plane was safe to fly out.

The exact opposite can be said for the mechanic, all he has to go on is the pilots write up that the throttles required staggering to keep the engines in sync. The mechanics did the proper trouble shooting, did an engine run and could not find a fault. What more were they to do?

Believe me mechanics want to turn a safe aircraft over to the flight crew just as much as the flight crew wants a safe aircraft out of maintenance.
 
iairallie
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:05 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 28):
The mechanics did the proper trouble shooting, did an engine run and could not find a fault. What more were they to do?

How about not get pissed off at the pilot for needing reassurance that they examined the problem properly and a little patience to explain what was done?
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
fr8mech
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:24 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 29):
How about not get pissed off at the pilot for needing reassurance that they examined the problem properly and a little patience to explain what was done?

Our industry is one of trust. Mechanics trust that the mechanic prior to him did his job correctly. Pilots trust that all the mechanics that have worked on the aircraft did so IAW applicable procedures. Mechanics trust that a pilot will report any anomaly. When someone questions this trust...the system breaks down. It's really that simple.

My folks don't have time to explain to the flight crews exactly what was done and why. The flight, unless presented with contrary data, needs to accept what is in the logbook. It is unfortunate that as technology has increased, so have spurious problems that come and go and are hard to nail down the 1st, 2nd or even third, fourth and fifth time around. By and large, it is not pencil-whipping that moves these aircraft...it is an honest effort to diagnose and fix a problem. But it comes down to, as in this case...if it isn't broke, we can't fix it. The OP appears to have done his due diligence in running the problem done and came away empty. The flight crew needs to accept that and if the problem re-occurs provide a more detailed report that can help maintenance narrow the problem even further.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
474218
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:37 pm



Quoting AcNDTTech (Reply 26):
Could this happen in a FADEC equipped aircraft?

I don't know since I have never worked on a FADEC equipped aircraft.

However, if I was to venture a guess I would say the yes it could on one manufactures aircraft and no it could not on another manufactures aircraft, because of their different design philosophies. That as far as I want to get into it.
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:00 am



Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 30):
My folks don't have time to explain to the flight crews exactly what was done and why

But they should. If the OP had (and i dont know that he didnt) then there would have been no comment. Its hard to explain "a pencil whipping" when all the facts and information are presented then and there. Blowing 5000 lbs of fuel is proof enough that they didnt just casually blow it off and tell the guy to go pound sand.

Communication is everything.
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
iairallie
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:54 am



Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 30):
When someone questions this trust...the system breaks down. It's really that simple.

This is a very dangerous attitude. Complacency. Sometimes people screw up, don't do their job properly, or don't take a valid concern seriously. If we all narrowly assume then we miss important opportunities to prevent accidents. There is an element of trust of course but it is okay to question when you don't feel okay about something. In fact I would say you have a moral obligation to question when there is doubt.

I had a mechanic take my badly mangled lifevest and crack a joke about it then just tape over the packaging tears. Damn, straight I questioned him about it we were due to depart for an airport with an overwater approach. It was not an acceptable repair it was laziness. Fortunately this mechanic was an exception. I am not going to just blindly "trust" when there is cause to doubt.

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 30):
The OP appears to have done his due diligence in running the problem done and came away empty.

Yes he certainly does. That is not the issue here.

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 30):
The flight, unless presented with contrary data, needs to accept what is in the logbook.

The pilots are responsible for the safety of the flight. If they feel they need more information in order to feel comfortable with that responsibility then why begrudge them.

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 30):
My folks don't have time to explain to the flight crews exactly what was done and why.

Communication it's underrated. 1 minute to summarize what is done. It's the professional way to behave.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
stratosphere
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:18 am



Quoting AcNDTTech (Reply 26):
Could this happen in a FADEC equipped aircraft?

I have never seen it in a FADEC aircraft.
 
aogdesk
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:19 am



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 27):
The mature response would be to not take it as a personal attack then take a second to explain and talk him through an overview of what you did and why you felt comfortable signing off. "I'm sorry you feel that way but I did take the write up seriously. We did x then y and z. I feel confident that the aircraft is safe". Is that so difficult?

What you're saying isn't unreasonable, but you're making the assumption (and very likely an incorrect assumption) that the pilot in question showed a mutual respect. If a flight crew member approached a mechanic and said "hey, i was looking at the way you signed this off and its a little light on detail. Can you give me some background on what you guys did?", that would be certain to get a professional and respectful response from the mechanic.

I speak from many years of experience however when I say that the pilot that doesn't waste any time accusing you of whipping a technical issue will likely not come to you with the approach above. The individual that chooses to go that route usually has quite the inflated view of their own abilities and ultimately, the accusation isn't so much about the writeup itself as the ego of the pilot. Luckily, I can also say from experience that these individuals are the exception and NOT the rule.
 
stratosphere
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:31 am



Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 34):
What you're saying isn't unreasonable, but you're making the assumption (and very likely an incorrect assumption) that the pilot in question showed a mutual respect.

You hit the nail right on the head on that one Aogdesk. I have always found that the mechanics get very little respect. I suppose we ask for it in a lot of ways. We are after all a necessary evil in the airline business..We do not generate revenue we cost the company money. But they seem to forget that if we didn't fix them they could not make that revenue but that is besides the point. The only time I got any respect was when an aircraft was down and they all meaning pilots, f/a's, agents, ramp etc... They knew if I put the a/c down it would mean a whole lot of work for them. In that scene I am their best friend..After it is over I am back to being scum of the earth again.. When Rodney Dangerfield does his spiel he is talking about aircraft mechanics.
 
iairallie
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:35 am



Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 34):
but you're making the assumption (and very likely an incorrect assumption) that the pilot in question showed a mutual respect.

It doesn't matter how the pilot behaved the mechanics response should have been the same. Why lower yourself to his level if he is being rude. A professional response back is the best option. As an FA whether a passenger asks me for something rudely or nicely I am expected to still be a professional in my response that standard should be the same for everyone.

Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 36):
have always found that the mechanics get very little respect.

Well, that isn't the case where I work. We have a very congenial relationship with our mechanics. Eveyone hangs out after hours crew, mechanic and ground. Sounds like a bit of an inferiority complex. Pilots don't always have the best people skills it doesn't mean they don't appreciate what you do. I've never met anyone that blamed mechanics for the mechanical delays. We are always glad to see you so that we can get on our way ASAP.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
fr8mech
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:24 am



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 33):
Communication it's underrated. 1 minute to summarize what is done. It's the professional way to behave

You know, I don't know what the corrective action block stated, but I'm going to guess it said something like "Performed BIT check of BVCU and EEC IAW (applicable AMM). Performed power assurance run, no throttle stagger noted, no faults. Aircraft OK for service"

Realistically, does the flight crew need more info?

And read the OP's original statement:

Quoting Boeing767mech (Thread starter):
gave the pilot the log book and he made a remark accusing me of pencil whipping the airplane.

The crew did not request additional info. The captain made an accusation.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 33):
Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 30):
The OP appears to have done his due diligence in running the problem done and came away empty.

Yes he certainly does. That is not the issue here.

Yes, that is the issue. The flight crew accused him of not doing his due diligence.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 33):
I am not going to just blindly "trust" when there is cause to doubt.

Hence my statement:

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 30):
The flight, unless presented with contrary data, needs to accept what is in the logbook.

Look, flight crews and maintenance will never see eye-to-eye here. Too me, the crew needs to trust that maintenance has performed their job correctly and unless presented with some data or evidence to the contrary, accept the aircraft. It's OK to ask questions for clarification, but to question the integrity of the mechanic is unacceptable, especially when there is no history to back up the accusation.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Bartonsayswhat
Posts: 353
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:30 am



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 36):
When Rodney Dangerfield does his spiel he is talking about aircraft mechanics.

I always figured he was talking about Umpires and Refferees. More than one of the parks i have umpired at had sign saying "Rodney Dangerfield lives here" on the door to the umpires room.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:32 am



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 27):
The pilot doesn't know you and doesn't know which sort you are so it is nothing personal.

The pilot as a professional needs to trust the Rectification entry in the PDR,or request for details from the mechanic if curious.....But by presuming nothing had been done was totally unprofessional....Its like the AME/AMT/Mechanic telling the pilot writing the snag that "are you sure that really occured in flight?"
What would be the Pilots response to that?

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 30):
My folks don't have time to explain to the flight crews exactly what was done and why

True.Also The Flight crew might not get the technicalities,But If requested,We would def try to explain to the crew on what transpired to rectify a snag in simple words.

Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 36):
The only time I got any respect was when an aircraft was down and they all meaning pilots, f/a's, agents, ramp etc... They knew if I put the a/c down it would mean a whole lot of work for them. In that scene I am their best friend..After it is over I am back to being scum of the earth again

Out here....Its Important to have a good rappot between Flt ops & Mx....There are bad apples everywhere...But the majority of personnell from both Departments are professional enough to realise that Trust is very important in this field.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
boeing767mech
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:01 am

So this is time for me to eat crow.......

But first let me review what happened so there is no confusion.

We had a 757 fly in with a write up for a Nose Gear Disagree EICAS message on taxi in, and a 3 knob split at 30K feet on climb out. Per the Boeing Fault Isolation Manual the Nose Gear Disagree Message on the EICAS was a nuisance fault so it was signed off with the reference stated it was a nuisance fault.

So we start troubleshooting the 3 knob split. I looked up everything in the maintenance manual and the Boeing Fault Isolation Manual. After talking to the inbound flight crew, they stated the throttle split was 3 knobs and EPR, N1, N2, N3 and fuel flow where matched with the split, with the throttle split EPR, N1, N2, N3 and fuel flow where split. So with this information we started looking into a Fuel Govenor problem, so we go out and run the engine........NOTHING no split EPR, N1, N2, N3, and fuel matched also the throttle matched. So we BITE checked the Engine Electronic Control (EEC), the Bleed Valve Control Unit (BVCU), the Thrust Management Computer (TMC) and the Air Data Computer (ADC). Looking for a bleed shift problem or a altitude shift problem. Nothing showed up on the BITE checks, and the EEC was shifted at 17,500 feet like it was programmed to do.

I called tech services and explained the inbound write up and what we had done to troubleshoot the problem and what we found. The tech service person looked into the computer to see what the engines where doing over the course of 30 days and they did not notice anything wrong so tech services stated to sign off what we did and return the aircraft to service.

I personally took the log book up and handed it to the captain. I explained what the inbound write up was and what we did to troubleshoot it, I answer his every question and then he made the remark that is sounded like we pencil whipped it to get it out of town. So after he insulted me I made the remark to kick a first class passenger off the airplane that I would fly with him because I felt that I did my best to troubleshoot the problem and had no problems flying on my own work......

Flash forward to tonight, the airplane flew out to the west coast and repeated the same porblem, so start flaming, I worked the airplane to the letter of the manuals and what I was told by tech services. Turns out the engine was high time and had compressor damage that was only found after they boroscoped the engine which we where not told to do by tech services or Power Plant Engineering.

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
A10WARTHOG
Posts: 200
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:03 am



Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 41):
Flash forward to tonight, the airplane flew out to the west coast and repeated the same problem, so start flaming, I worked the airplane to the letter of the manuals and what I was told by tech services.

Personally I do not believe anybody needs to flame you at all. You did all you could do, with the information you where given and found nothing wrong.
 
aogdesk
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:22 am



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 37):
A professional response back is the best option. As an FA whether a passenger asks me for something rudely or nicely I am expected to still be a professional in my response that standard should be the same for everyone.

IAirAllie, again, I certainly can't say that you're wrong by any stretch of the imagination, and as a guy who really loves this industry, I think its fantastic that you do your job in a professional manner. That isn't always the case. I'd say that the F/A - passenger/customer dynamic is a bit different though in my opinion. As for the inferiority complex......nah.....actually realize that we're MUCH better than those pilots.  Wink Seriously though, the intent of giving it right back to flight crews when they act up is not just retaliatory, but essentially to *remind* them that we are all professionals and all in this thing together. Since, as I said previously, this is a rare occurrence, the gentle nudge of our sharp tongue usually jolts them back into reality.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 37):
Well, that isn't the case where I work. We have a very congenial relationship with our mechanics. Eveyone hangs out after hours crew, mechanic and ground.

Kudos to you all, I hope it stays that way. My most recent airline was like that, makes for a great work atmosphere.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:50 pm



Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 41):
Flash forward to tonight, the airplane flew out to the west coast and repeated the same porblem

It happens.

Sometimes a problem will defy all the usual solutions. You inspect, you research, you test and everything is proper. You cannot duplicate the problem. We've seen this before, we'll see it again. I've seen the same problem written up a dozen times over a couple of months. Each time they checked everything related to it. Finally something different happens: you replace a "perfectly good" component and that solves it, or the thing finally faults to the point where it is not airworthy and it gets taken off the line for a while.

One plane in our fleet had a strong buffet that happened at random times in flight. It scared passengers and crew alike. I had it on one flight so one day instead of going to the hotel with the rest of the crew, they asked me to make a test flight since I'd experienced the problem. We could not duplicate it. Finally the factory sent a couple of guys on a three-week bag-drag with the aiplane. One or the other was on the jumpseat every leg until it happened again - and again. They finally caught it and fixed it. I don't even remember what it was, but it had been written up maybe 20 times over six months.

Not one of those mx crews ever "pencil whipped" it. They inspected, they researched, they rigged and adjusted and everything was nominal. They had a perfectly normal airplane in front of them and there was nothing they seemed able to do about it.

What do you do with an airplane like that?

You can't just park it. Debt service on an airframe is many thousands of dollars per day whether you fly it or not. Only justification for not flying it is that it is unsafe. It wasn't. It rarely had the buffet and the buffet never made control a problem, it just shook. It wasn't right, but it wasn't wrong enough to turn into a ramp anchor. What do you do?

That is not pencil whipping.

One Part 135 operator I knew had a twin in for a 100-hour and they got a charter call. They went out and buttoned the airplane up without finishing the inspection. They removed the last six pages of the logbook and they sent an unsuspecting pilot out in a plane that was overdue for scheduled maintenance.

THAT sir, is pencil whipping.

There are a few paycheck whores out there, sadly enough, both pilots and mechanics. I do know of one very experienced mech who gobbed grease over a fractured casting on a jet landing gear and sent an unsuspecting crew out with a broken airplane. Luckily they got away with it. He has since left the country. That is not a pencil whip, that is a criminal act.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
BAE146QT
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:55 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 44):
That is not a pencil whip, that is a criminal act.

You might arguably say that the line between the two is a very fine one indeed.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 44):
I don't even remember what it was, but it had been written up maybe 20 times over six months.

I seem to remember hearing this story before from you - wasn't it a BAe-146 with a rudder/yaw damper problem?

Or am I thinking of Ernest K. Gann again, with his DC6-with-the-elevator-hanging-by-a-single-bolt story?
Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
 
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HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
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RE: Pencil Whipped

Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:58 pm



Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 41):
After talking to the inbound flight crew, they stated the throttle split was 3 knobs and EPR, N1, N2, N3 and fuel flow where matched with the split, with the throttle split EPR, N1, N2, N3 and fuel flow where split.

What was SEI EPR reading.If it was selected.

Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 41):
I personally took the log book up and handed it to the captain. I explained what the inbound write up was and what we did to troubleshoot it, I answer his every question and then he made the remark that is sounded like we pencil whipped it to get it out of town.

After you did all that,there was no need for the Pilots smart comment.

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 43):
As for the inferiority complex......nah.....actually realize that we're MUCH better than those pilots.

 Smile

Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 41):
Turns out the engine was high time and had compressor damage that was only found after they boroscoped the engine

After it was borescoped & found out to be compressor damage.Why was the snag occuring only in air & not on Ground?

regds
MEL...
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
iairallie
Posts: 2326
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 am

RE: Pencil Whipped

Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:14 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 40):
Its like the AME/AMT/Mechanic telling the pilot writing the snag that "are you sure that really occured in flight?"

Which happens. I've had mechanics doubt what I've said as I am just a lowly FA. When they do this I walk back with them and show them exactly what I am talking about. I've seen them second guess pilots too. It's human nature. Professionals though don't take it personally when it happen to them.

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 43):
My most recent airline was like that, makes for a great work atmosphere.

It sure does. It really makes a difference to work with people that you like and enjoy being around. Every day I feel grateful that I work with such outstanding people.

Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 41):
So this is time for me to eat crow.......

You did your best and followed proper procedure. Some problems are more difficult to diagnose than others.

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 43):
I'd say that the F/A - passenger/customer dynamic is a bit different though in my opinion.

I'd disagree. Ideally there should be no difference between internal and external customer service. Like it or not the pilot is your customer. Putting people "in their place" is not productive. Behaving like a professional especially when insulted is the best way to remind someone that they are dealing with a competent professional. At the end of the day you feel better about yourself if you don't let someone with a bad attitude get you down.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
aogdesk
Posts: 748
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:26 am

RE: Pencil Whipped

Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:18 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 47):
Behaving like a professional especially when insulted is the best way to remind someone that they are dealing with a competent professional

But seeing the look on a cocky captains face when you shove it right back at him is infinitely more fun........... Wink We'll be professional 99.9% of the time...then we have some wiggle room.... Smile

Cheers!
 
fr8mech
Posts: 6672
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Pencil Whipped

Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:30 pm



Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 41):
Turns out the engine was high time and had compressor damage that was only found after they boroscoped the engine which we where not told to do by tech services or Power Plant Engineering.

Minor thread detour warning:

I don't buy it. The engine may have internal issue, but if those issues caused the throttle stagger you would also see an increase in fuel flow. When you have HP compressor degradation, one of the 1st things you see is an increase in FF for any given N3.

The most likely culprit is the FFR (or is it an FFG, can never keep that straight). But, the compressor damage makes it a no-brainer.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.

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