lincoln
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ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:27 pm

I was listening to LAX ATC this afternoon and I heard the following (slightly paraphrased) exchange... I missed the callsign, but it was essentially

ATC: [callsign] Stop your engines at the appropriate point
[callsign] (with foreign accent) You want us to stop our engines?
ATC: [callsign] I was given the message to tell you to stop your engines at the appropriate point. I don't know what that means, I'm just passing along the message.

...

When I first heard it I assumed it was some kind of emergency or the like, but based on the fact that the crew didn't seem to have any idea what ATC was talking about that seems extraordinarially unlikely.

So does anyone what was going on and where would ATC have gotten this message from?
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Mir
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:27 pm

Possibly telling a foreign crew to stop short of the alleyway and shut down their engines so that they can be towed into the gate. That message could have been passed along from the ramp controller.

-Mir
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IAHFLYR
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:32 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Possibly telling a foreign crew to stop short of the alleyway and shut down their engines so that they can be towed into the gate. That message could have been passed along from the ramp controller.

I can't imagine anything other than what Mir suggests......not even close to a normal transmission from ground control, but might be sort of fun to try in the air!

Just kidding Wow!  covereyes 
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Mir
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:33 pm



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 2):
might be sort of fun to try in the air!

I believe NASA does this.  Smile

-Mir
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IAHFLYR
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:41 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
I believe NASA does this.

And knowing some of those guys I totally understand why!!!!!!
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lincoln
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:51 pm

Thanks for the quick replies!

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 2):
but might be sort of fun to try in the air!

You didn't hear about [insert airline name here]'s new fuel conservation procedures?

They found if they killed the engines about 5 miles out their fuel burn dropped dramatically

 Wow!  Big grin
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413X3
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:55 pm

I don't see why you can't just shut down your engines and get towed to the gate right after landing. That would save a lot of fuel.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:12 pm



Quoting 413X3 (Reply 6):
I don't see why you can't just shut down your engines and get towed to the gate right after landing.

Where would you shut the motors off? Stopping on any taxiway will create quite mess at a moderately busy airport, let alone stopping and connecting a tug to the aircraft.

And how many tugs would it take to perform the suggested engine shut down at say ATL, DFW, IAH, MIA, DEN, LAX, SFO, and the list goes on and on and on???

Fuel savings sure while you create large increases in other costs such as airport efficiencies, equipment, and connection times when you have to reduce the flow rates to the airports to name a few.
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BlueShamu330s
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:23 pm



Quoting 413X3 (Reply 6):
I don't see why you can't just shut down your engines and get towed to the gate right after landing.

Because you would effectively be passing control of the aircraft to the tug driver (no disrespect to anyone).

Busy airport, complex taxi instructions, loads of conditional instructions from ATC. Who would take the calls and who would respond? Where's the best place to cope with that? A noisy tug cab with a handheld transceiver (which you can guarantee will fail at the most inopportune time) or a quiet flightdeck? Where would inbounds stop to get hitched to the towbar? With 3 mile seperation on final, you get a landing aircraft every 80 seconds approx. It takes alot longer to stop an aircraft, shut down engines, connect the towbar and advise ready for tow and to get out of the way of the queue forming behind you at the runway exit. ATC would also lose all flexibility, as every aircraft would have to leave the runway via a designated exit - otherwise your tug could be at completely the wrong place on the manouevering area.

The list goes on...!
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themightydude
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:24 pm

You wouldn't have to have a tug.

I know one thing that a few airlines have looked at, is having a small electric engine installed on say the nose gear that would allow the plane to taxi to the runway and to the gate under electrical power instead of engine power.
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BlueShamu330s
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:25 pm

...and lets's not mention LVPs and fog  Wow!
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AirframeAS
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:42 pm



Quoting Themightydude (Reply 9):
I know one thing that a few airlines have looked at, is having a small electric engine installed on say the nose gear that would allow the plane to taxi to the runway and to the gate under electrical power instead of engine power.

That would take a heck of a lot of horsepower to do. Is this even feasible? What about the extra added weight to the 'engine'? I don't see any savings there at all.
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DukeofDashes
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:27 pm



Quoting Themightydude (Reply 9):
I know one thing that a few airlines have looked at, is having a small electric engine installed on say the nose gear that would allow the plane to taxi to the runway and to the gate under electrical power instead of engine power.

I would wager a guess that the energy savings would be equivalent to that of single engine taxi ins (BTW, can a 4 engine bird do single engine taxis or do they require 2?). Of course if that battery fails at the same rate an APU does, well, would it be worth it?
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VTBDflyer
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:38 am

I too heard this exchange this afternoon. I'm not quite sure what it was referring to, but the few things I could think up:

Occasionally, when LAX is at a slow hour, the TBIT airlines will taxi to the gate with tower, explaining tower passing along the message to shut down going into TBIT. (just for reference, LiveATC only has LAX north and south towers, last time I checked)

It's either that, or they where placed in a hold for flow to somewhere.

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bond007
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:35 am



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 8):
The list goes on

Well, yes, but there are fairly simple answers to all of those questions you asked. Aircraft get towed from one side of busy airports to the other, every day, and without incident, so it can be done quite safely on an individual level.

Hey, I'm not suggesting we do anything of the sort - just commenting that with changes in procedures, etc. etc., it COULD be done, I'm sure. Heck, tugs at every runway exit, quick-attach towbars, etc.

It might not be at all practical - but it's possible.


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lax25r
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:36 am

Speaking of the TBIT, on gate 101, it has a sign on it that says "Aircraft report on blocks" or something like that. How tight is the clearance on this gate for a 744 for the taxiway behind it to require this sign?
 
VTBDflyer
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:17 pm



Quoting LAX25R (Reply 15):
Speaking of the TBIT, on gate 101, it has a sign on it that says "Aircraft report on blocks" or something like that. How tight is the clearance on this gate for a 744 for the taxiway behind it to require this sign?

If I'm thinking of the right gate, I believe that no aircraft can taxi on that nearest taxiway when a 767? or larger aircraft is gated there. Just taking a quick look on google earth shows a Korean Air 747-400 parked in TBIT gate 101. Certainly doesn't look like anything bigger than a MD-80 could taxi past there with enough clearance.
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Lemmy
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:17 pm

It might have something to do with the tight fit at TBIT. But you'd think the controller would have known about that.

More on that here: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/217042/
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lax25r
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:00 am

Gate 101 is the southern-most gate of the TBIT. Although it's tight, I'm pretty sure that at least 777 can pass by. The only restriction that I"m aware of I find on airnav.com:

- WESTBOUND B747-400 ACFT ON TWY C PROHIBITED FROM SOUTHBOUND TURNS ONTO TWY P

Though they've made some additions to the remarks that weren't there a few months ago.

CTC LAX AIRFIELD OPERATIONS FOR B-747-400/B-777-300 AND 300ER/A340-600 AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS RESTRICTIONS.

Anyone know what restrictions are in place?
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:40 am



Quoting 413X3 (Reply 6):
I don't see why you can't just shut down your engines and get towed to the gate right after landing. That would save a lot of fuel.

The confusion & crowding of the Pushback trucks/equipment/manpower & delay in acquiring needed clearences....its not worth it.

Its a fact that ATC will permit Taxiing aircraft preference over towed one due time saved.Ask any Mx person requiring to do the ground run with both options available. Smile


regds
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arffdude
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:45 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 19):

Its a fact that ATC will permit Taxiing aircraft preference over towed one due time saved.Ask any Mx person requiring to do the ground run with both options available.

From my time doing ATL ramp control, priorities goes Lifeguard flight > Live flight > MX movement
 
lowrider
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:08 pm



Quoting DukeofDashes (Reply 12):
BTW, can a 4 engine bird do single engine taxis or do they require 2?).

If you are light enough, one is theoretically possible, but far from practical. 2 is possible if you are relatively light. 3 is the minimum if you need to maneuver in tight quarters and have any significant weight on board.
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HAWK21M
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:25 pm



Quoting ARFFdude (Reply 20):
From my time doing ATL ramp control, priorities goes Lifeguard flight > Live flight > MX movement

its the same here.....Priority is given to emergency followed by faster means.
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SilverComet
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:32 pm



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 21):

On the A340 we routinely practise 2 engine taxi after landing very often at significant weights (170-180 tons). 90 degree turns are also not a problem but require proper anticipation and management of your momentum or you end up having to inject 40-50% N1 for the turn, which effectively kills all the fuel savings you intended to achieve in the first place.
 
lowrider
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:56 pm



Quoting SilverComet (Reply 23):
On the A340

My experience with 4 engines is limited to the 74 classic. After landing 3 engines is the normal practice for us. We can maneuver at significant weights on 2 engines, but the thrust levels get so high as to be destructive in cluttered or confined areas, as cargo areas seem frequently be. It works out well if you don't have to stop, but once you do, the thrust required to get moving again can do a lot of damage. You are right about managing your momentum. As with so many maneuvers, energy management is key.
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Rj111
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:38 am



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 11):

Quoting Themightydude (Reply 9):
I know one thing that a few airlines have looked at, is having a small electric engine installed on say the nose gear that would allow the plane to taxi to the runway and to the gate under electrical power instead of engine power.


That would take a heck of a lot of horsepower to do. Is this even feasible? What about the extra added weight to the 'engine'? I don't see any savings there at all.

Airbus are looking at that for their future A320s. It would require a lot of HP but electric motors are very weight and size efficient.
 
Valkyrie01
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:06 pm



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 2):
but might be sort of fun to try in the air!

I have been on test flights on 757 where they do inflight restart. At around 35000 ft they shut down one engine restart it then shut down the other one then restart it. As soon as the fuel control switch was in cut off the airplane start dropping. Its kind of fun looking at the EICAS giving you the options to restart the engine cross bleed or windmill. The APU was shut off so that option was not available.The pilots use the windmill option i was looking at what airspeed and at what angle the airplane had to fly to restart. That was always one of my favorite memories i tell my friends and they are like they did what follow by you are crazy.I have been on other test flight with different airplane 777 and 767 and never had a inflight restart with those i was in first class sleeping so they might have done it .
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HAWK21M
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:23 pm



Quoting Valkyrie01 (Reply 26):
The pilots use the windmill option i was looking at what airspeed and at what angle the airplane had to fly to restart.

The N3 Indicator would have a prompt if its an RB211-535.not sure about P&W 2000 series.

Quoting Valkyrie01 (Reply 26):
I have been on test flights on 757 where they do inflight restart. At around 35000 ft they shut down one engine restart it then shut down the other one then restart it

Also the Yaw is quite noticable.Apart from the ROC check plotting & L/G alt extension,the Relighting is an important check on a Test flight.

regds
MEL
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Valkyrie01
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:25 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 27):
The N3 Indicator would have a prompt if its an RB211-535.not sure about P&W 2000 series.

The P&W does the same with N2 indicator not much difference.You got your bug set where to light offf the engine etc similar to starting on the ground.The interesting thing to me was the EICAS was telling you what airspeed was needed to me that was neat so i was watching the MASI and EADI and N2( the 757 i was in had P&W)
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HAWK21M
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:38 am



Quoting Valkyrie01 (Reply 28):
The interesting thing to me was the EICAS was telling you what airspeed was needed

In fact Three seperate Airspeeds at various Altitudes from your present altitude,give=ing more options.
regds
MEL
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Valkyrie01
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:44 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 29):
In fact Three seperate Airspeeds at various Altitudes from your present altitude,give=ing more options.

Yeah i know that at that point years ago i was new to working on 757. I was working on 777 prior did two heavy checks then it was on to 757 talk about been pissed. When i was working on 737 i was like give a 757 any day.Where i work we work on multiple A/C ie 737 757 767 777 etc.So its not uncommon to be working a 777 one day and a 737 the next day.
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HAWK21M
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RE: ATC: "Stop Your Engines At The Appropriate Point"?

Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:11 am



Quoting Valkyrie01 (Reply 30):
.Where i work we work on multiple A/C ie 737 757 767 777 etc

Similiarly out here,as Unlike Flt ops,Mx persons can be qualified on Multiple types at the same time & work on all qualified types anytime in a day.No restriction.

regds
MEL
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