sandpiper1
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:10 pm

Defueling A Lear 35

Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:27 pm

Does anyone have any information on how to defuel a Lear 35?

Thanks
 
User avatar
tb727
Posts: 1743
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:40 pm

Defueling A Lear 35

Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:13 pm

The only way you can do it is with a de-fuel function on a fuel trucks over wing hose if you don't have a de-fueling "pig" in your hanger. The problem is you can only drain as much fuel as you can reach into the tank with the nozzle so you can probably only get maybe 60 gal out of each tip.

Now, if you want to get really creative and if that particular 35 has fuel dump, well you can see where I am going with that one. It comes out pretty quick and a bucket won't do it, I've seen that not work.

Why are you de-fueling it?
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

Defueling A Lear 35

Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:34 pm

Walk into any flight school and ask a group of CFI's, "Who wants to build time in a Lear?"
Proud OOTSK member
 
jetstar
Posts: 1369
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 2:16 am

Defueling A Lear 35

Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:16 pm

I doubt any FBO will defuel with a fuel truck, I believe it is against FAA rules to defuel an airplane and use that fuel again because it is considered contaminated and cannot be used for aviation purposes, so it cannot be put back in a fuel truck unless it is an old truck used for defueling purposes only. Usually they take that fuel and use it for hangar heaters or diesel fuel.

I have had to defuel fuel tanks on the JetStar’s I worked on to change fuel boost pumps, I had a 2” hose with a large B nut coupling and would pump it from one tank to another from the defuel port. The FBO would not let me pump it back into their fuel trucks. Any remaining fuel removed from the sump drains because diesel fuel or used for kerosene heaters, both of which I had.
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:03 pm

Here's my method (too bad it's not April 1st...)  cheeky 

Make sure you get an early start, as you will be at this for a few hours. It will probably easily spill over into the night.

Go to Home Depot, buy yourself several 5 gallon Homer buckets (estimate the remaining fuel on board in gallons, and divide by 5 to get the number of Homer buckets needed  Wink ), and then proceed to the FBO. Purchase a fuel tester, and proceed to fill the tester from the quick drain points on the aircraft's wings and belly, and dump the contents of the fuel tester into a Homer bucket each time. When you have filled one Homer bucket, place the lid on it and get a new one.

Finally, when no one's looking, and you have successfully drained all the fuel from the aircraft, sneak up on top of the FBO's Jet A truck, open the top hatch, and dump the buckets in. Note: this may require a buddy for lookout and bucket brigade duty  shhh  The bewildered FBO manager will wonder why he's showing a few more gallons of Jet A on hand in the morning...  Wink
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
User avatar
tb727
Posts: 1743
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:40 pm

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:37 pm

The problem with the Homer buckets is that the sump drains on the Lear are tiny and just dribble out fuel. It would take all night to fill a bucket!

Too bad it's not a 20 series Lear, it doesn't take long to burn a lot of gas in those things, especially on the ground. I guess you could make a mess and open the crossflow and turn on a boost pump and pop the cap on the opposite side. It spills fuel everywhere though.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 2):
Walk into any flight school and ask a group of CFI's, "Who wants to build time in a Lear?"

Yeah that might work, unfortunately you wouldn't be able to use it again, lol. I've seen some hot shot CFI's lunches being eaten by a Lear on many occasions!
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
boeing767mech
Posts: 805
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 5:03 pm

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:10 pm



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 4):
Finally, when no one's looking, and you have successfully drained all the fuel from the aircraft, sneak up on top of the FBO's Jet A truck, open the top hatch, and dump the buckets in. Note: this may require a buddy for lookout and bucket brigade duty The bewildered FBO manager will wonder why he's showing a few more gallons of Jet A on hand in the morning...

Here in the NorthEast that should read place bukets in back of truck or other personal vehicle and race home and deposit said Jet A in oil tank to burn to heat your home during the winter.

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:15 pm



Quoting Tb727 (Reply 5):
unfortunately you wouldn't be able to use it again

The original poster never said that was a requirement. If all else fails, wouldn't a simply garden hose syphon work? It wouldn't get all of it, but it is a good start.
Proud OOTSK member
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:43 pm



Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 6):
Here in the NorthEast that should read place bukets in back of truck or other personal vehicle and race home and deposit said Jet A in oil tank to burn to heat your home during the winter.

David

Didn't a guy get arrested for doing that to JetBlue aircraft up in PWM?  Wink
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
boeing767mech
Posts: 805
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 5:03 pm

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:54 pm



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 8):
Didn't a guy get arrested for doing that to JetBlue aircraft up in PWM?

SHHHH. the warden doesn't know I'm on his computer.


But yes there was a hose jockey in Portland arrested for that, We used to sump the airplanes at the commuter I used to work at and one of the guys would used it in his VW. Back then the DOM knew and didn't care they had to pay to haul off the waste Jet A anyway so it was in the cars and tugs.
Alot has changed since the days of Metro III's and Wings West Airlines

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
User avatar
tb727
Posts: 1743
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:40 pm

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:55 pm

A majority of our sump fuel and de-fuel fuel ends up in a couple of our mechanics TDI's along with our GPU's and some tugs. Our bosses want the mechs take our Jet-A, otherwise we have to pay for them to haul it away.
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
G4Doc2004
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:49 am

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:46 am

Actually, they make a rig that filters the fuel as it comes out of the aircraft and then filters in one again as it is being pumped back in. We have such a rig at our hangar. Works very well, and everytime I sample the fuel before it is pumped back in it is perfectly clear. Our tank is stainless steel and holds 1000 gallons of jet-A.

And to answer the question asked in the original post, you can defuel a Lear 35 by making a hose up with an adaptor that will fit the lines to the engine and use the boost pump to pump it out. Remember 2 things. First, don't try to pump the tanks dry with the boost pumps. The pumps use the fuel as a coolant and you'll fry the pumps. Also, transfer the fuselage fuel into the wings first. Otherwise, you'll risk an aft CG in the hangar. This is more critical on the Lear 28 and 31, and they don't have the tip tanks to balance the aircraft.
"Failure to prepare is preparing to fail"--Benjamin Franklin
 
jetstar
Posts: 1369
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:36 am



Quoting Tb727 (Reply 10):
A majority of our sump fuel and de-fuel fuel ends up in a couple of our mechanics TDI's along with our GPU's and some tugs. Our bosses want the mechs take our Jet-A, otherwise we have to pay for them to haul it away.

All he sump fuel from the JetStars I worked on either wound up in my VW diesel Rabbit or my oil tank for my house. I would let it sit overnight in a 5 gallon gas can to let any suspended water settle out before I used it. For my Rabbit I would add about an ounce of engine oil or Marvel Mystery Oil to the jet fuel for fuel pump lubrication, for the furnace, it went in as is.

The JetStar has 14 sump drains and I had a heavy hand when sumping, so it was no problem to fill up the 5 gallon can on a preflight. I wasn’t being sneaky about it either, the chief pilot knew what I was doing, JetStars have a history of wing corrosion because of water in the fuel so it was done in the name of preventative maintenance.

I wasn’t all that greedy, I did give some to our pilots who had kerosene heaters at home.
 
acNDTTech
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:41 am



Quoting Jetstar (Reply 3):
I doubt any FBO will defuel with a fuel truck

At one FBO that I used to work at, we had a truck strictly for de-fuel. We did heavy mx on aircraft, so that was why. With the used Jet-A, we filled the fuel tanks of all our GSE and anything else that would burn diesel/kerosine. We even donated it to the local fire dept. for training purposes.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:24 am



Quoting Jetstar (Reply 3):
I believe it is against FAA rules to defuel an airplane and use that fuel again because it is considered contaminated and cannot be used for aviation purposes,

Defuelling must be carried out into an empty clean fuel bowser kept for that purpose after the necessary checks are carried out on the fuel prior to drainage with regards to contamination & water entrappment.
A receipt is then issued by the refuelling company to the airline on the amount of fuel defuelled.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
WESTERN737800
Posts: 385
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:06 am

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:24 pm

At the shop where my friend works when they defuel JetA, some mechanics have their own barrell and they use it in their diesel pickups.
Bring back Western Airlines!
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:10 am



Quoting WESTERN737800 (Reply 15):
some mechanics have their own barrell and they use it in their diesel pickups.

Long term damage if one uses Kerosene with Diesel  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
jetstar
Posts: 1369
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:16 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):
Long term damage if one uses Kerosene with Diesel
regds
MEL

No so, JetA is basically #1 kerosene or #1 oil, diesel is #2 oil. I ran my VW Rabbit diesel for many years on jet fuel.

Jet fuel has less lubrication qualities than #2, so all is needed is to add some oil, I used to add about and ounce or 2 of engine motor oil or Marvel Mystery Oil to 5 gallons for injection pump lubrication. I put over 100,000 miles on my Rabbit, many of those miles were on jet fuel.

My gas mileage would also be down about 8 percent using jet fuel, I would average 48 mpg on jet on the highway and about 52 mpg with diesel.

In the cold winter months, diesel fuel is blended with #1 oil to reduce the gelling of the fuel and could be blended to 50 – 50 in the real cold northern New England states. The blend is posted on the pump. Some people would even make up their own blend and add water white kerosene in the below zero days, clear #1 oil and just add some motor oil to the fuel to restore the lubrication to the fuel.

On the airport where I worked years ago, dozens of mechanics had diesel cars and trucks and they all ran them on jet fuel. The running joke was at the end of the day, when everyone was going home you could see a black cloud of smoke arise from the parking lots as they started the vehicles.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:38 pm



Quoting Jetstar (Reply 17):
The running joke was at the end of the day, when everyone was going home you could see a black cloud of smoke arise from the parking lots as they started the vehicles

What about Cylinder condition  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
jetstar
Posts: 1369
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:52 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):
What about Cylinder condition
regds
MEL

These cars were 1980 diesel cars, they were black exhaust smokers back then, not the cleaner cars and trucks of today.

My Rabbit from day one used to put out a cloud of black smoke when I accelerated from a stop no matter what fuel I was using.

Using Jet fuel will not cause any long term damage, as long as you add some lubrication to the fuel.

Some FBO’s because their jet fuel trucks are not licensed for road use, instead of incurring the costs of keeping a separate diesel fuel tank, will run jet fuel in their diesel fuel trucks.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:23 am



Quoting Jetstar (Reply 19):
Some FBO’s because their jet fuel trucks are not licensed for road use, instead of incurring the costs of keeping a separate diesel fuel tank, will run jet fuel in their diesel fuel trucks.

Interesting.
Out here the only place where ATF is used apart from the aircraft is in the portable Genset  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
WESTERN737800
Posts: 385
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:06 am

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:43 am

We use Jet Fuel in a tug, a pressure washer, and a preheater (I hate using the preheater).
Bring back Western Airlines!
 
njxc500
Posts: 194
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:47 pm

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:01 pm

I don't see an issue running jet fuel in a diesel. My last truck had an owners manual that listed jet-A as an approved fuel. I'm pretty sure for cold climates all diesels can run #1, but like what was already stated, they need extra lube for the pump.

Nick
 
meister808
Posts: 924
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2000 11:45 am

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:17 pm

Technically any on-road diesel engine made after 2007 cannot run jet fuel, as is it not 'ultra low sulfur' and thus will theoretically clog the federally mandated exhaust particulate trap. However, knowing a thing or two about how the exhaust filter works, I'm about 95% certain that clogging shouldn't be too much of a concern as long as the EGTs get hot enough to cook the particulates in the filter every once in a while (e.g. run it down the highway for 10 miles if it has been idling all night)

Or, you could just do some light 'modification' to the exhaust and go with a standard muffler.

Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
jetstar
Posts: 1369
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:14 pm



Quoting Njxc500 (Reply 22):
I don't see an issue running jet fuel in a diesel. My last truck had an owners manual that listed jet-A as an approved fuel. I'm pretty sure for cold climates all diesels can run #1, but like what was already stated, they need extra lube for the pump.

Another nice thing about running Jet fuel in a diesel car or truck, it’s not dyed red like other off road fuels like heating oil.
 
luv2cattlecall
Posts: 628
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:25 am

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:31 pm



Quoting Jetstar (Reply 24):

Another nice thing about running Jet fuel in a diesel car or truck, it’s not dyed red like other off road fuels like heating oil.

Jw, how does that make a difference? Does the red permanently stain things and void your warranty or something?
.
 
jetstar
Posts: 1369
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:58 pm



Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 25):
Jw, how does that make a difference? Does the red permanently stain things and void your warranty or something?

Its to prevent truckers from using heating oil, which is basically #2 oil in their trucks and avoiding state and federal highway taxes, the US Government requires that all fuel not used in trucks be dyed red. When a truck goes through a state highway inspection, the inspector can take a fuel sample and if it is red, the trucker gets hit with a large fine.

When this rule first came out, they included jet fuel to be dyed red. The jet engine manufacturers claimed that the red dye could possibly cause problems with the fuel nozzles and possible erosion of the turbine blades, so they asked to government to exempt jet fuel from being dyed in the name of safety and the government agreed and dropped that requirement.

When my home oil tank is filled, the delivery ticket states #2 dyed fuel. I have also seen some gas stations near farms that have diesel fuel pumps clearly marked off road and dyed, and the price is much cheaper, but you cannot fill up a licensed motor vehicle, only tractors and other farm equipment.

One fuel not dyed is #1 water white kerosene, used in heaters.
 
gulfstream650
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:58 pm

RE: Defueling A Lear 35

Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:51 am



Quoting Jetstar (Reply 17):
Jet fuel has less lubrication qualities than #2, so all is needed is to add some oil, I used to add about and ounce or 2 of engine motor oil or Marvel Mystery Oil to 5 gallons for injection pump lubrication. I put over 100,000 miles on my Rabbit, many of those miles were on jet fuel.

And so if I pulled up next to you at the traffic lights would it smell like I was actually parked on the ramp?!
I don't proclaim to be the best pilot in the world but I'm safe

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests