blueflyer
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Fuel Tanks Not Certified, So What?

Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:09 pm

In this thread it is written that the Argentinian government's A310 has had the certification of its auxiliary fuel tanks withdrawn by Boeing due to a lack of maintenance. In line with my somewhat provocative title, I am wondering what the practical effects are, especially on a government-owned aircraft ?

A certification withdrawal in itself doesn't impede the use of these tanks, of course, but what consequences does it have ? The insurance carrier refuses coverage until it gets proof of re-certification ? Outside MROs refuse to work on the plane until the tanks are disabled so they can't be accused of ignoring/messing with them ?
Democracy 2016: 3 million California votes < 100,000 Midwest votes.
 
474218
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RE: Fuel Tanks Not Certified, So What?

Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:22 pm

Boeing does not issue certifications, they are issued by regulatory agencies, so Boeing could not withdraw a certification of the auxiliary fuel tanks.

Additionally Boeing has no authority when it come to the airlines maintenance practices, again this is done by the regulatory agencies.
 
blueflyer
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RE: Fuel Tanks Not Certified, So What?

Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:39 pm

So am I to conclude that the OP in the thread I mentioned was mistaken in saying the auxiliary tanks could not be used due to Boeing not approving their maintenance standards ?
Democracy 2016: 3 million California votes < 100,000 Midwest votes.
 
BAE146QT
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RE: Fuel Tanks Not Certified, So What?

Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:06 pm



Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 2):
So am I to conclude that the OP in the thread I mentioned

It wasn't the OP (Original Poster) - it was someone down-thread that said it. The tone of their post suggests they are angry at the situation, (one way or another), but not that they have any actual knowledge of what the president's motivations are.

474218 (is that a tail number, chap?) pretty much said what I was thinking, but put more eloquence into it. The airliner might be a Boeing, but as far as I understand it, certification is not their decision. It is solely that of the regulators in the countries you want to fly to (or in).

I don't know anything about this situation, (so you can stop reading now if you like) but at a guess, the modification was not a Boeing one, is not warrantied by them, and the company that made the mod is either not recognised by the FAA or hasn't sought their approval. Somewhere along the line, this lack of Boeing support and lack of FAA certification have become merged to become "Boeing won't allow it".
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474218
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RE: Fuel Tanks Not Certified, So What?

Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:07 pm



Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 2):
So am I to conclude that the OP in the thread I mentioned was mistaken in saying the auxiliary tanks could not be used due to Boeing not approving their maintenance standards ?

Approval of an operators maintenance come from their regulatory agency, not the manufacture. Boeing can write a maintenance program for an operator but getting it approved and following it is strictly between the operator and the regulatory agency.
 
njxc500
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RE: Fuel Tanks Not Certified, So What?

Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:24 pm

This may be a dumb question, but an A310 is not made by boeing anyway, so I'm sure they definitely wouldn't have anything to do with that.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Fuel Tanks Not Certified, So What?

Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:14 pm



Quoting BlueFlyer (Thread starter):
In this thread it is written that the Argentinian government's A310 has had the certification of its auxiliary fuel tanks withdrawn by Boeing due to a lack of maintenance. In line with my somewhat provocative title, I am wondering what the practical effects are, especially on a government-owned aircraft ?

Read reply #2 in the thread that you quoted a little closer. The aircraft in question is a Boeing 757.

The aircraft appears to carry no civilian registration (which is common for military aircraft), so they could operate it however they wanted. However, they probably want to stay in Boeing's good graces (little things like "manufacturer support"), so they will probably not use the aux. fuel tank in question.

Also, in that same reply:

Quote:


I don't think that the 757 T-01 has flown to the USA since 2004, when the government began to fear that it could be embargoed upon arrival due to the defaulted debts to the Paris Club.

So, it appears that part of the reason they didn't take the presidential 757 to the 'states is because they didn't want it confiscated, repossessed, etc.  Wink
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
blueflyer
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RE: Fuel Tanks Not Certified, So What?

Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:05 pm



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6):
Read reply #2 in the thread that you quoted a little closer. The aircraft in question is a Boeing 757.



Quoting Njxc500 (Reply 5):
This may be a dumb question, but an A310 is not made by boeing anyway

Duh, sorry about that.
Democracy 2016: 3 million California votes < 100,000 Midwest votes.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Fuel Tanks Not Certified, So What?

Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:48 am



Quoting BlueFlyer (Thread starter):
I am wondering what the practical effects are, especially on a government-owned aircraft ?

Not all that large...provided the local regulator approves, they're good.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 1):
Boeing does not issue certifications, they are issued by regulatory agencies, so Boeing could not withdraw a certification of the auxiliary fuel tanks.

That's not exactly true. Boeing (the company) doesn't issue certifications. However, Boeing does have delegated authority from the FAA to issue certification on a wide variety of issues. So, technically, it's the FAA issuing the certification (due to the delegated authority) but it's done by a Boeing employee without any consultation/verification from the FAA. Legally, it's the FAA, but from a practical standpoint it's Boeing. The FAA doesn't have anywhere close to the manpower required to handle all of the certification paperwork that flows from a major OEM every day.

Quoting Njxc500 (Reply 5):
This may be a dumb question, but an A310 is not made by boeing anyway, so I'm sure they definitely wouldn't have anything to do with that.

Although it was clarified to a 757, Boeing did make auxiliary tanks at one time. It's possible, although I have no idea if it happened, that those could be fitted to other aircraft.

Tom.
 
474218
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RE: Fuel Tanks Not Certified, So What?

Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:57 am



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 8):
That's not exactly true. Boeing (the company) doesn't issue certifications. However, Boeing does have delegated authority from the FAA to issue certification on a wide variety of issues. So, technically, it's the FAA issuing the certification (due to the delegated authority) but it's done by a Boeing employee without any consultation/verification from the FAA. Legally, it's the FAA, but from a practical standpoint it's Boeing. The FAA doesn't have anywhere close to the manpower required to handle all of the certification paperwork that flows from a major OEM every day.

Are referring to a "Designated Engineering Representatives"? DER's are OEM employees but work with the FAA. However, final approval must come from the FAA.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Fuel Tanks Not Certified, So What?

Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:54 am



Quoting 474218 (Reply 9):

Are referring to a "Designated Engineering Representatives"?

They're called "Authorized Representatives" (AR's) now, but yes.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 9):
DER's are OEM employees but work with the FAA.

True.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 9):
However, final approval must come from the FAA.

Not necessarily true. It depends on the system and the nature of the approval. The AR/DER has authority to approve for certain things (most commonly, structural repairs) without FAA coordination. They can also recommend approval for other things (typically, anything outside their prior authorization), but that must be finalized by the FAA.

At the end of the day, the legal trail ends up back at the FAA administrator, but there is no FAA/OEM coordination for approvals that the FAA has already delegated authority to the OEM.

Tom.
 
ThirtyEcho
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RE: Fuel Tanks Not Certified, So What?

Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:06 am

Yikes!

I hear that Airbus has withdrawn certification on the entire Boeing 777 fleet.

Just what in the hell is the object of this ill-informed topic?

Next thing you know, Cessna is going to withdraw the certification of all Mooney aircraft.

Sheesh!
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Fuel Tanks Not Certified, So What?

Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:03 pm



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 10):
Not necessarily true. It depends on the system and the nature of the approval. The AR/DER has authority to approve for certain things (most commonly, structural repairs) without FAA coordination. They can also recommend approval for other things (typically, anything outside their prior authorization), but that must be finalized by the FAA.

I agree an AR/DER can approve things like repairs, many years ago I was in training to become a DER. However they can't "withdraw certification" from an operator, which is what the thread started stated:

Quoting BlueFlyer (Thread starter):
certification of its auxiliary fuel tanks withdrawn by Boeing due to a lack of maintenance.

Only the FAA or other regulatory agency can "certify/decertify.

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