747400sp
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Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:20 am

I herd John Travolta regard to the A380 as the most advance airliner flying today. Is the A380 that advance, because I thought it cockpit was simulator to the A320 and A330/A340. So is the A380 the most advance airliner in the world?



PS: I still remember when the 777 was the most advance airliner in the world.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:33 am



Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
I herd John Travolta regard to the A380 as the most advance airliner flying today. Is the A380 that advance, because I thought it cockpit was simulator to the A320 and A330/A340. So is the A380 the most advance airliner in the world?

Cockpit similarity doesn't tell you much about technology level. Flight deck philosophies change pretty slowly for the simple reason of not having to completely start from scratch on training when you bring in a new type.

If you're used to a 757 cockpit, the layout and controls will feel pretty familiar on a 767, 777, and 787. There's differences, obviously, but they're more similar than different...a lot of the advances are in things that are transparent to the flight crew, like structures, system architecture, power technologies, etc.

Tom.
 
ovrpowrd727
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:44 am



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 1):
a lot of the advances are in things that are transparent to the flight crew, like structures, system architecture, power technologies, etc.

agreed, the advances are the things that people would not notice right away. the cockpit tends to remain similar throughout the years for the benefit of the pilots. slight advances are usually to navigation first then everything following afterwards. i'm sure the technology used is the latest available and usually the latest aircraft to come out is the 'most advanced'
 
EMBQA
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:22 am

No.. the only thing new it brings is size. There is nothing new that the A380 brings to the table.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:29 am



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
No.. the only thing new it brings is size. There is nothing new that the A380 brings to the table.

I disagree. There are big advances in hydraulics (higher pressure IIRC) and other things. Also the most advanced plumbing of any airliner.

These are not flashy things, but they do count.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
ovrpowrd727
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:44 am

the engine options on the super are also brand spanking new, still have the new car smell...no other engines like it out there for any other existing airliners
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:59 am



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
No.. the only thing new it brings is size. There is nothing new that the A380 brings to the table.

I'm not sure that's acccurate. Are any other commercial airliners running around with electrohydraulic actuators? It's also the first commercial application of GLARE that I'm aware of, and possibly the first of active load alleviation (although that might be on prior Airbii). I think they're also the first to do brake-to-vacate.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
I disagree. There are big advances in hydraulics (higher pressure IIRC) and other things.

Higher pressure is the only hydraulic difference that I know of, although the addition of the EHA's allowed them to go to two hydraulic systems, which is a major architectural change (service history will tell if that's an advance or not).

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
Also the most advanced plumbing of any airliner.

I hadn't heard about that one...what did they do to the plumbing?

Tom.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:43 am



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 6):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
Also the most advanced plumbing of any airliner.

I hadn't heard about that one...what did they do to the plumbing?

Higher pressure IIRC. Nothing revolutionary really. Also they had to deal with greater pipe lengths than anyone before them. "Bravely flushing where no turd has been flushed before".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Oxtc4o0Q1I

And of course lately embedding doesn't work in some cases: "Tags Not Allowed

Certain symbols, tags and intrusive commands are not allowed in our messaging application. If you believe you reached this message in error, please contact us at support@airliners.net. " WTF???
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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autothrust
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:35 am



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
No.. the only thing new it brings is size. There is nothing new that the A380 brings to the table.

Sorry thats utter nonsense. I know some people don't like the fact the A380 being so advanced and like to tag it as a big alu frame with a modern cockpit but nothing else.

But the A380 features a big list of innovations and airliners firsts:

-Very high sophisticated IMA avionics first time on a widebody
-Power by Wire industry's first 2E/2H actuator structure
-first ACUTE System (Airbus Cockpit Universal Thrust Emulator)
-biggest and most advanced RAT and APU in the world
-high psi hydraulics system with only two circuits instead of three like the 787
-first plane with GLARE
-Network Systems Server (NSS)
-first widebody with variable-frequency electrical generators
-new unique load allevation system
-first CFRP wingbox for commercial aircraft of more than 100 seats
-Brake to Vacate
-etc...
-etc..
etc..

I'm sorry if people like you don't like the truth.  talktothehand 
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
David L
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:43 am

I suspect there's some confusion between "the most advanced" and "way more advanced than anything else in the skies". If there's any advancement at all over previous airliners then it must be the most advanced airliner (from Airbus, at least), even if it's not "way more" advanced, should it not?  Smile

I'm not saying it is the most advanced but the fact that it isn't utterly revolutionary doesn't stop it from being "the most advanced".
 
astuteman
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:49 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
No.. the only thing new it brings is size. There is nothing new that the A380 brings to the table.

You want to point to the other airliner around today that is:-

more advanced?  no 
as advanced?  no 
anywhere near?  scratchchin 

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 8):
etc...
-etc..
etc

And there are indeed etceteras to add to that list

(e.g CFRP tailcone barrels which are bigger than the 787's - admittedly not single piece)
And we haven't even got anywhere near mentioning aerodynamic technology yet.. the least visible, and quite possibly the most significant aspect of the A380's design  cheerful   cheerful 

That caucus of posters who label the A380 "old" technology really, really want to think about what they're saying, given the level of performance and capability it is demonstrating.
Particularly relative to it's "787 technology-based" rival  stirthepot   biggrin 

Imagine if Airbus had actually done anything even remotely advanced..  faint 
Just shows how incredibly good the basic A380 design is..  champagne   bigthumbsup 

Rgds
 
Pihero
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:00 pm



Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 8):
Power by Wire industry's first 2E/2H actuator structure



Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 8):
high psi hydraulics system with only two circuits instead of three like the 787



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
Also the most advanced plumbing of any airliner.

Three aspects that, when combined, make it the first wide body which is flyable with a TOTAL hydraulic failure.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 10):
That caucus of posters who label the A380 "old" technology really, really want to think about what they're saying, given the level of performance and capability it is demonstrating.

And looking at the flags next to their pseudos, a good example of acute NIH syndrome, I daresay.
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Pihero
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:26 pm



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 6):
and possibly the first of active load alleviation (although that might be on prior Airbii).

The load alleviation system was introduced, as far as I know on the Dassault Mercure and the Losckheed Tristar-500 in the seventies/eighties, though not in the digital advanced state we saw on the 320 and the 380.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:27 pm



Quoting Pihero (Reply 11):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
Also the most advanced plumbing of any airliner.

Three aspects that, when combined, make it the first wide body which is flyable with a TOTAL hydraulic failur

To be fair I was talking about the toilets. Big grin
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
astuteman
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:46 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):
To be fair I was talking about the toilets.  biggrin 

 rotfl 
And the showers of course..  biggrin 

Rgds
 
norcal
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:43 pm

I don't know if it is the most advanced feature on the A380 (I don't have engineering expertise) but the most impressive thing to me is the wings. They are immensly big and show that this bird was built to grow and grow. Proportionally speaking, the A380 looks like an A318 or A319.

I mentioned in another thread that an 89m A380-900 with GE-NX/Trent XWB, and increased MTOW would be amazing. The A380 is just getting started with improvements and the best is yet to come. I just hope there is room for the 747-8I too because it would be such a shame to lose such an iconic aircraft.
 
astuteman
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:08 pm



Quoting NorCal (Reply 15):
They are immensly big and show that this bird was built to grow and grow. Proportionally speaking, the A380 looks like an A318 or A319.

 checkmark 
The 767-200 is 48m L x 47m W
The A330-200 is 60m L x 60m W
The 777-200 is 64m L x 60m W

And these are the shortest planes in their family.

In your analogy, the current 73m L x 80m W A380-800 is most like the A318  Wow!
An 80m L x 80m W A380-900 would be square in planform like the A319  scratchchin 
In fact, you'd need to go to S U-H's A380-1000 dream-machine before you hit the same basic shape configuration as an A320...  faint 

When you look at that, an 86m+ A380 isn't (technically) far-fetched at all.

Quoting NorCal (Reply 15):
I just hope there is room for the 747-8I too because it would be such a shame to lose such an iconic aircraft.

Totally agree with this - the more 4-holers, the better, as far as I'm concerned, and the 747 has to be the most iconic 4-holer around.  highfive 

Rgds
 
PGNCS
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:23 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
No.. the only thing new it brings is size. There is nothing new that the A380 brings to the table.

Fine. What is the most advanced airliner today, then?
 
747400sp
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:40 pm



Quoting NorCal (Reply 15):
I just hope there is room for the 747-8I too because it would be such a shame to lose such an iconic aircraft.

I agree, do not get me wronng now, I can not wait to see the A380-900, but as 747 fan, I would like to see 747s say a while longer. She the last of the giant clippers that Boeing and Pan Am design together, so she is truly an iconic aircraft.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:04 am



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 10):
And we haven't even got anywhere near mentioning aerodynamic technology yet

I've been impressed with the performance despite an overweight issue!  wideeyed  Now that is exceeding the mark in this one category.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 16):
In your analogy, the current 73m L x 80m W A380-800 is most like the A318

 checkmark  The plane has so much additional MTOW and MLW potential it screams to be stretched.  spin 

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 16):
When you look at that, an 86m+ A380 isn't (technically) far-fetched at all.

Are you coming over to my way of thinking?  Wink 87m or 89m Baby!  spit 

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 16):
, and the 747 has to be the most iconic 4-holer around.

No argument there. She will always be the Queen of the skies to me.  cloudnine  But that doesn't mean that the A380 might not be advanced to the point that the market niche for the 748I isn't closed.  Sad

Lightsaber
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Pihero
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:52 am



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 14):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):
To be fair I was talking about the toilets.


We are not amused !
Scatology in an aviation forum, oh Dear ! How low can we get !?!
 Big grin
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gigneil
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:40 am



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
No.. the only thing new it brings is size. There is nothing new that the A380 brings to the table.

Wrong.

Quoting Ovrpowrd727 (Reply 5):
the engine options on the super are also brand spanking new, still have the new car smell...no other engines like it out there for any other existing airliners

Sadly, the engines are the least advanced thing on the airplane. The GEnx and Trent 1000 as well as the Trent XWB are all more advanced.

Not in service, but certified.

On the plus side, the A380-900 and A380-800R should both have the Trent XWB.

NS
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:16 am



Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 14):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):
To be fair I was talking about the toilets.


We are not amused !
Scatology in an aviation forum, oh Dear ! How low can we get !?!

Hehe. Jokes aside, good plumbing may not be sexy but without it modern society would not really be viable. Same with garbage collection.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
AA757MIA
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:20 am

But its fugly...  duck 
I'm sorry... I had to say it  Smile
 
astuteman
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:14 am



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 21):
Sadly, the engines are the least advanced thing on the airplane. The GEnx and Trent 1000 as well as the Trent XWB are all more advanced.

Don't disagree that the T900 is less advanced than those other engines. Which again, IMO, is an implicit statement about the quality of the rest of the aircraft.. As I said,

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 10):
Imagine if Airbus had actually done anything even remotely advanced..  faint 

That said, in the spirit of the thread, I suspect the T900 and GP7000 are actually fairly comfortably the most advanced engines currently in revenue service on an airliner - until the 787 flies anyway...  Smile

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 19):
The plane has so much additional MTOW and MLW potential it screams to be stretched.  spin 

I hear it, man, I hear it!!!  bigthumbsup 

Rgds
 
David L
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:25 am



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 10):
Imagine if Airbus had actually done anything even remotely advanced..

Indeed. The Wright brothers will be yawning in their graves.  Smile
 
cobra27
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sun Nov 23, 2008 3:51 pm

Currently most advanced aircraft in service - Yes
When 787 and A350 come- No more
Engines - As mentioned earilier no quite advanced, they still have convential bleed air air cycle machine (A350 will also have that)
Hydraulics still conventionak(still no electric actuators, but then again 787 and 350 wont have them too)
Materials- currently most advanced materials (Glare) but not as advanced as 787 composites
A380 seem a little heavy aeroplane for 555 pax.
I think A380 wing was optimised for stretched A380-900.
 
Pihero
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:34 pm



Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 26):
Engines - As mentioned earilier no quite advanced, they still have convential bleed air air cycle machine (A350 will also have that)

The air cycle machine is not part of the engine.

Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 26):
Hydraulics still conventionak(still no electric actuators, but then again 787 and 350 wont have them too)

Please revise your sources. It does, indeed have electric actuators - and more .

Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 26):
A380 seem a little heavy aeroplane for 555 pax.

Probably. It still does the job more economically than the competition.
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astuteman
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:37 pm



Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 26):
Engines - As mentioned earilier no quite advanced, they still have convential bleed air air cycle machine (A350 will also have that)

Would you consider this to be the true measure of engine "advancement"..  scratchchin 

Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 26):
Hydraulics still conventional(still no electric actuators, but then again 787 and 350 wont have them too)

Not sure I understand this. See what these gentlemen had to say earlier..

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 8):
Power by Wire industry's first 2E/2H actuator structure



Quoting Pihero (Reply 11):
make it the first wide body which is flyable with a TOTAL hydraulic failure.

Do you think that this arrangement really qualifies as "Hydraulics still conventional (still no electric actuators)"  no 

Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 26):
A380 seem a little heavy aeroplane for 555 pax.

I'm not sure that this characteristic can necessarily be assumed to be a lack of technical "advancement" - in fact it may be the reverse - big, long wings, and big high bypass engines aid overall efficiency, but come at a price - weight.
Just have a look at the 767's direct, technologically cutting-edge replacement if you want another example..  spin 

If you (or even we) are ever fortunate to see Lightsaber's 87m-89m A380 break cover, then I think you may be treated to the spectacular fulfillment of all of that weight's potential, with a plane quite possibly unmatched in weight per available passenger capacity kilometre.
Who knows?  Smile

Rgds
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:50 pm



Quoting Pihero (Reply 27):
Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 26):
Engines - As mentioned earilier no quite advanced, they still have convential bleed air air cycle machine (A350 will also have that)

The air cycle machine is not part of the engine.

It's also still present in a bleedless architecture...the 787 has an ACM, as far as I know, it's just not powered by engine bleed air.

Tom.
 
Pihero
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:55 am



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 29):
The air cycle machine is not part of the engine.

It's also still present in a bleedless architecture...the 787 has an ACM, as far as I know, it's just not powered by engine bleed air.

 checkmark   checkmark 
Some apparently don't know that . "Bleedless" seems to have other meanings...

Regards
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SpeedBirdA380
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:27 am



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
No.. the only thing new it brings is size. There is nothing new that the A380 brings to the table.

 Yeah sure What a truly ignorant comment.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 24):
Don't disagree that the T900 is less advanced than those other engines. Which again, IMO, is an implicit statement about the quality of the rest of the aircraft.. As I said,

Yes indeed.

Quoting NorCal (Reply 15):
They are immensly big and show that this bird was built to grow and grow.

Yes. I remember reading somewhere they were designed to give future models of the A380 a MTOW of nearly 650,000kg. I cant remember where though and just how accurate that statement is.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:33 am



Quoting SpeedBirdA380 (Reply 31):



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 21):



Quoting PGNCS (Reply 17):



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 10):



Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 8):

The OP was asking about the changes in the cockpit.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
luv2cattlecall
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:28 am



Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 8):
-first ACUTE System (Airbus Cockpit Universal Thrust Emulator)

JW, could you please elaborate on that? Sounds interesting.... does it have anything to do with making the engine displays the same regardless of engine maker or something? I know some A320 pilots who don't especially care for IAE's display on the 320 vs. the CFM's..

Quoting Pihero (Reply 11):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
Also the most advanced plumbing of any airliner.

Three aspects that, when combined, make it the first wide body which is flyable with a TOTAL hydraulic failure.

Agreed! I would not want to be on an AI CurryJet with all the lavs inop!

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 32):
The OP was asking about the changes in the cockpit.

No...the OP asked if the A380 really was the most advanced airliner...because, based on the cockpit, it looked the same as any other Airbus. Reread the question portion of what he wrote, and you'll notice that the word cockpit wasn't mentioned......

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
So is the A380 the most advance airliner in the world?



PS: I still remember when the 777 was the most advance airliner in the world.

.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:17 am



Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 33):
JW, could you please elaborate on that? Sounds interesting.... does it have anything to do with making the engine displays the same regardless of engine maker or something?

Airbus, very sensibly, went to a single thrust measurement to get away from the N1/EPR/TPR lunacy plaguing other aircraft. Now it's just thrust (THR), expressed as %. 0% THR = shutdown. 100% THR = max available thrust at the current condition (w/o bleed air). The FADEC controls whatever the engine manufacturer wants to (N1, EPR, TPR, or whatever else they think up) but converts it to THR for display to the flight crew. Great move on Airbus's part, in my opinion.

See slide 14 of this pitch:
http://www.smartcockpit.com/pdf/plane/airbus/A380/misc/0001/

The smartcockpit.com pitches are excellent reading for anyone interested in the A380 technologies.

Tom.
 
astuteman
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:29 am



Quoting SpeedBirdA380 (Reply 31):
Yes. I remember reading somewhere they were designed to give future models of the A380 a MTOW of nearly 650,000kg. I cant remember where though and just how accurate that statement is.

I would take it to be fairly accurate...  Smile  thumbsup 

Rgds
 
cobra27
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:38 am



Quoting Pihero (Reply 27):
The air cycle machine is not part of the engine.

It affects engine operation

Quoting Pihero (Reply 27):
Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 26):
Hydraulics still conventionak(still no electric actuators, but then again 787 and 350 wont have them too)

Please revise your sources. It does, indeed have electric actuators - and more .

maybe some, majority is still hydraulics, check wikipedia

Quoting Pihero (Reply 30):
Some apparently don't know that . "Bleedless" seems to have other meanings...

I said conventional ACM

Regards

 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:08 pm



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 34):
Now it's just thrust (THR), expressed as %. 0% THR = shutdown. 100% THR = max available thrust at the current condition (w/o bleed air).

Like De Havilland had on the Trident in 1963.
An indicator that read 100pc thrust at take off power. It was adjusted by the crew to an ISA type table before departure.
 
wn700driver
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:26 pm



Quote:
Probably. It still does the job more economically than the competition.

What competition? A corsair 743? And the validity of that statement assumes you are going to one of the very few airports certified for A380 operations...

As for economically transporting 555pax? I don't see how it does that. It's advances are indeed stunning, but it is significantly closer to its competition than the first Tristars were to theirs. Everything the 380 has will be duplicated and/or bettered by the 787/A350 in the coming months/years. By the way, why has no one mentioned it can use GTL fuels, almost right out the box? That seems big to me.

But when you are talking economy, no it just isn't there, hence the abysmal sales, compared to its own smaller brother, the 350. I agree that the wings were made for growth, but realistically, I don't see the 900 happening. No new 800's have been ordered in 2008, the freighter is dead and gone, and airlines have only expressed a tepid interest in the 900 version.

As a technical achievement, it is quite grand. But it has too many answers to questions no one asked. It's hard to make that work.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
astuteman
Posts: 6341
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:54 pm



Quoting WN700Driver (Reply 38):
Everything the 380 has will be duplicated and/or bettered by the 787/A350 in the coming months/years.

To be fair, there would be something wrong if the 787 and A350 didn't move the game further on still (whether they will move EVERYTHING further on is a different question).
Their design pedigree is of a later vintage.....

Quoting WN700Driver (Reply 38):
But when you are talking economy, no it just isn't there, hence the abysmal sales, compared to its own smaller brother, the 350

Curious as to in exactly what way you mean that...

Airbus themselves say that the biggest A350 - the A350-1000 would have to be configured in 10-abreast Y in order to match, or beat the CASM of the current A380-800 in its standard configuration.
Bear in mind that, once the extra weight comes off (i.e. well before the A350-1000 EIS's), the A380-800 will also outrange the A350-1000 by AT LEAST 600Nm, and nearer 1000Nm at full payload.

Considering the A350-1000 will EIS some 8 years after the A350-800 (10 years after the A380 was supposed to..), and sport a CFRP fuselage, -XWB engines and all the other goodies, I'd say that hardly paints the A380-800 as a dismal economic performer  no .

Put the very same Trent-XWB engines (alone) on the current A380-800, just for comparison's sake, and, if Airbus can be believed, the A350-1000, at 10Y, will struggle to match it in its standard configuration.
It'll come nowhere close when that A388 is configured 11Y, which, by the way, will still be more spacious than the A350-1000's 10Y.
(And it will outrange the A350-1000 by even more....  Smile )

If ever the "non-existant" A380-900 ever appears, even the "cooking" version (600t, 79m, current engines), in standard will blow the A350-1000 away in 10Y (and even this will comfortably outrange it too, btw)

Strap the -XWB's on too for good measure......  scratchchin 

As for the "full monte" 87m A380 - God knows if we'll ever see it, but I'm pretty sure operating economics per seat won't be at the top of its list of weaknesses...  biggrin 

Rgds
 
rheinwaldner
Posts: 1248
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:58 pm

RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:54 pm



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 16):
In fact, you'd need to go to S U-H's A380-1000 dream-machine before you hit the same basic shape configuration as an A320...

How long would the A321-like A380 be?

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 19):
Quoting Astuteman (Reply 16):
When you look at that, an 86m A380 isn't (technically) far-fetched at all.

Are you coming over to my way of thinking? 87m or 89m Baby!

I am asking myself whether an ultra long A380, which of course would only have medium range, would be attractive. If let's say CASM comes down to 50% of smaller planes on transatlantic legs would the frequency argument still count to airlines?
In other words would not an airline be able to offer so low prices that any business case without A380's is spoiled on the trunk routes?
 
767nutter
Posts: 117
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:09 pm

Just to add a simple idea, but didn't the Trident have an Auto Take Off feature? The A380 doesn't. So in theory the Trident could still be more advanced than the A380 in the TO feild.
 
SpeedBirdA380
Posts: 335
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:57 pm

RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:10 pm



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 35):
I would take it to be fairly accurate...

Rgds

Thanks.  thumbsup 

That is stunning. So theorectically If Airbus do decide to manufacture an advanced version of the A380(and I think they will) it could have a MTOW of roughly 250,000kg more than a 747-400.  faint 

Quoting WN700Driver (Reply 38):
hence the abysmal sales, compared to its own smaller brother, the 350.

From Airbus.com

A380 orders :192
A350 orders: 458

I think its harsh to use the word abysmal when comparing the sales of the 380 and 350.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:36 pm

Quoting SpeedBirdA380 (Reply 42):
I think its harsh to use the word abysmal when comparing the sales of the 380 and 350

Sure it is....How long have each of order books been open...???
A380..8yrs..?
A350..1yr - 1-1/2yrs..?

That puts the A380 at one every 15 days... the A350 at one every 36 hours

[Edited 2008-11-24 08:46:53]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Bellerophon
Posts: 516
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:47 pm

767nutter

...didn't the Trident have an Auto Take Off feature?...

No.

Best Regards

Bellerophon
 
SpeedBirdA380
Posts: 335
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:57 pm

RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:51 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 43):
That puts the A380 at one every 15 days... the A350 at one every 36 hours

I dont think many would argue against the notion that the A380 sales have been dissapointing. Im not disputing that.


However keep in mind that there are three variants of the A350 vs only the A380-800 on its own so to compare them against each other is unfair.
 
astuteman
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RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:35 pm



Quoting SpeedBirdA380 (Reply 42):
That is stunning. So theorectically If Airbus do decide to manufacture an advanced version of the A380(and I think they will) it could have a MTOW of roughly 250,000kg more than a 747-400.

It could.
For what it's worth, I think advances in technology, such as GTF will retrospectively show that the A380 was, indeed over-engineered. I can't see there ever being a need for a 650 tonner  no .
At 625-630 tonnes, with Trent-XWB or equivalent, even the 87m-88m proposal would have a nominal range well into the mid-8000's Nm, with double the passenger capacity of a 744.

The "mere" 79m-80m stretch, similar engines + MTOW, would match the 772LR in range, but with 50% more passenger capacity than the 748i, and 70% more than the 744..  Wow!

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 43):
Quoting SpeedBirdA380 (Reply 42):
I think its harsh to use the word abysmal when comparing the sales of the 380 and 350

Sure it is....How long have each of order books been open...???
A380..8yrs..?

Descriptions, and comparisons like that can have a nasty habit of coming back to bite later on.....  Smile

Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 40):
I am asking myself whether an ultra long A380, which of course would only have medium range, would be attractive.

FWIW my Jedi partner and I reckon that the 87m-88m proposal, limited to 600 tonnes, with the existing engines, will still have a nominal range with 700 pax (an equivalent configuration to c. 360 in a 744) of c. 7 400Nm, and a max. payload range with 250 000lb (c. 115 tonnes), of 5 500Nm
In other words pretty much exactly the same range as the 744, and double the passenger capacity.
Fuel burn delta? Less than 20%

Add the Trent XWB's and the ranges go up by c. 300Nm (i.e. approaching 773ER range), and the fuel burn delta is less than 15% - for double the seats.  Smile

Could you fill it, is the question..  scratchchin 

Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 40):
How long would the A321-like A380 be?

For the record, 104.7m long.....  faint   biggrin 

Rgds
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:18 pm



Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 44):
767nutter

...didn't the Trident have an Auto Take Off feature?...

No.

Perhaps you're thinking of one of the first autoland facilities in commercial service, 767nutter?
 
Pihero
Posts: 4196
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:48 pm



Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 26):
Engines - As mentioned earilier no quite advanced, they still have convential bleed air air cycle machine (A350 will also have that)



Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 26):
Hydraulics still conventionak(still no electric actuators, but then again 787 and 350 wont have them too



Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 36):
Please revise your sources. It does, indeed have electric actuators - and more



Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 36):
maybe some, majority is still hydraulics, check wikipedia

1/- For the ACM, either you pick air from the engines through a bleed system or you do from a RAM air scoop.
1.A/- You lose some power from the engines and you have longer air pipings (that cost weight) but in any case, you'd need to have some sort of bleeding to regulate the engine airflow.
1.B/- The "bleedless" solution will still cost the same amount of power through electrical power AND drag for the RAM air scoop. The jury is very much still out on the advantages of that solution. Add the necessary re-humidification of the air in order to be "livable"....see ? And on this subject, the emphasis on the "air so dry it won't cause any oxydisation" is a red herring, as a little tweak on a modern pack will achieve the same resultant dry air into the cabin, which is not exactly what passengers would require on a long flight --> dehydration and all the medical problems it can cause.

2/- Hydraulics.
Sorry, we haven't found a better, lighter, more reliable power source. But the architecture of the system can be revolutionary (electro-hydraulic actuators as a matter of fact existed on the VC-10 )...Airbus pushed the idea to the limit by offering what could amount to self-contained hydraulic systems for the primary flight controls, hence the claim that with a total hydraulic failure, one can still have hydraulic power to the flight control actuators.
As for wikipedia, I'm sure you will have a great deal more reliable information from the aviation sites on the net. Look for instance for "A380-800 flight deck and systems briefing for pilots" or the "Lufthansa A380 newsletter". A lot more serious.

Quoting WN700Driver (Reply 38):
What competition? A corsair 743? And the validity of that statement assumes you are going to one of the very few airports certified for A380 operations...

Once again you're showing quite a lot of bias and not a lot of good information :
1/- The" very few airports" you are talking about are now some 70, of which the 37 airports that account for more than 80% of to-day's 747 movements.
And if you are talking about some advantage for the 748l, think again, as that aircraft is in the same category as the A380 (ICAO Code F or FAA Group VI classifications)
2/- By "competition", I meant the 744, the projected 748l, the 777w......etc...
See Astuteman post # 39 for clarification : He writes generally quite well !

Regards.
Contrail designer
 
Pihero
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Is The A380 The Most Advance Airliner Today?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:14 pm



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 10):
And we haven't even got anywhere near mentioning aerodynamic technology yet.. the least visible, and quite possibly the most significant aspect of the A380's design

And the good discussion on the engines...
Apparently, not many have realised that for comparison,
the A380 at 560 t / 70 t of thrust
the B744 at 397 t / 58 t of thrust and
the B748l at 440 t / 66.5 t of thrust
it simply means that the 744 needs 17 % more on its thrust / weight ratio and the 748l 21 % in spite of superior aerodynamics !
Maybe the aerodynamics of the aircraft have something to do to that ! (That includes the nose, of course ).
Contrail designer

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