windowplease
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Why No Winglets On 777?

Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:24 pm

modern 737s have 'em, a lot of 757s are getting 'em and all airbuses have had them for ages. So why have no 777's got winglets, even the long range versions?

I'm sure there's a simple explanation..... Is it a matter of them already having very efficient wings?
 
ANITIX87
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:32 pm



Quoting Windowplease (Thread starter):
even the long range versions?

They do. Boeing has found that the raked wing-tips (like on the 777-300, 777-200LR, and 767-400) do the job very nicely.

And they look amazing.

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N276AASTT
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:44 pm

Here is a good example of them on the 777. They are inline with the wing vs the blended winglets that fold up or the wingtip fences the A320's etc have. Chances are you may have seen a 777 that had these and didn't notice them because of their profile. From underneath the a/c, you can tell a lot better.


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[Edited 2008-11-21 09:58:56]
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dl767captain
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:01 pm

Would the raked wingtips work on the 777-200ERs? It seems strange that they don't have anything.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:35 pm



Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 1):
Quoting Windowplease (Thread starter):
even the long range versions?

They do. Boeing has found that the raked wing-tips (like on the 777-300, 777-200LR, and 767-400) do the job very nicely.

The 777-300ER has the raked wingtips but not the standard non-ER 777-300 which has the same wing as the -200 and -200ER. The raked wingtips increase the 777 wingspan by 13 ft.
 
LH4116
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:03 pm



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
The 777-300ER has the raked wingtips but not the standard non-ER 777-300 which has the same wing as the -200 and -200ER. The raked wingtips increase the 777 wingspan by 13 ft.

Is there any chance that Boeing will might develope blended winglets for the 77E, 77A and 773, like they did for the 763?
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xxcr
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:09 pm

the 772LR/300ER have raked wingtips, and boeing claims that they work better then the ones that the 737NG have.

the standard 772/773 don't have them.

they're sortta like low profile wingtips.


XXCR
 
LH4116
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:16 pm



Quoting Xxcr (Reply 7):
the 772LR/300ER have raked wingtips, and boeing claims that they work better then the ones that the 737NG have.

Yes indeed, as a matter of fact the new P-8 poseidon will have raked wingtips, and i assume that they would soon be an option for 737 pax costumer in the near future.
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xxcr
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:51 pm

thanks LH4116 for comfirming that.


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FighterPilot
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:31 pm

Here's another good shot.

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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gordon Gebert JR



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Everett67
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:54 pm

Back when the 777 was being developed, wasn't there some concern that the wings were going to be too wide for many airports?
I seem to remember something about folding wingtips on the 777 so it could fit airports around the world. Obviously that never happened!
 
LH4116
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:19 am



Quoting Everett67 (Reply 12):
I seem to remember something about folding wingtips on the 777 so it could fit airports around the world. Obviously that never happened!

I have also read that somewhere, but after than i haven't heard anything more about it. It would have been cool though.
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tristarcrazy
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:26 am

Wasn't there a post here about Boeing offering a 777-200/300/200ER performance upgrade kit which includes raked wing tips?? Remembering Delta, Continental and a few others have ordered these kits?
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:00 am



Quoting LH4116 (Reply 8):
and i assume that they would soon be an option for 737 pax costumer in the near future.

A disadvantage of raked wingtips is that they take up more gate space than blended winglets, so I don't think they can completely replace blended winglets on the 737, especially at airports with tight gate space.
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gigneil
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:34 am

I completely concur, although Delta's biggest issue (that crippled the 764) was wanting to park it where L-1011s were parked, and a raked wingtip fits there. They chose it rather than a blended winglet or increased span.

Certainly, with the 737, gate space is one of the very biggest concerns. Southwest had to reconfigure a lot of gates to accommodate the 737-700 and the winglets compounded that.

Also, the different types of winglets optimize different types of flight and at different altitudes... that was part of the choice with the Poseidon if I'm not mistaken.

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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:47 am



Quoting LH4116 (Reply 8):
as a matter of fact the new P-8 poseidon will have raked wingtips

One good lookin' 737 Big grin Will boeing offer this as a further upgrade for current 737'NG's. How much more efficient are the raked wingtips then blended? I guess there is no real data for the 737 here.


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Viscount724
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:10 am



Quoting SkyyKat (Reply 20):
Will boeing offer this as a further upgrade for current 737'NG's. How much more efficient are the raked wingtips then blended? I guess there is no real data for the 737 here.

I believe the main reason for the use of raked wingtips on the Poseidon is because it will spend much of its time at low altitudes where icing is common and the raked wingtips are easier to deice than winglets.
 
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:14 am



Quoting SkyyKat (Reply 20):
How much more efficient are the raked wingtips then blended? I guess there is no real data for the 737 here.

Raked wingtips should come in around 2% lower cruise drag than blended winglets. Our perfomance laptop at WN shows 4.65% lower drag for the 700's versus no winglet, and 5.15 for the 300's. When I worked for Delta, we were told the raked wingtip lowered fuel burn 6.5-7%.
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flynavy
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:19 am



Quoting LH4116 (Reply 6):
Is there any chance that Boeing will might develope blended winglets for the 77E, 77A and 773, like they did for the 763?

Aviation Partners Boeing has approached Delta and American to add blended winglets to their 777ER fleets.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:50 am



Quoting LH4116 (Reply 6):
Is there any chance that Boeing will might develope blended winglets for the 77E, 77A and 773, like they did for the 763?

APB has been shopping around the idea of "Blendeds" to 777 customers for the last nearly half-decade, and found practically zilch sustained interest (relative to other programs).

However, a new venture by BCAS is offering a competing bid to offer the rakes (modified, and for the first time in a commercial application-- retrofitted) for prior existing aircraft: namely, the A-market 777s and the 772ER. I'd been hearing about it for a while, and FINALLY found the first tangible corroboration for it in the 9/1/08 edition of Aviation Week & Space Technology
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APChigoSea
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:42 pm

Quoting Everett67 (Reply 12):
Back when the 777 was being developed, wasn't there some concern that the wings were going to be too wide for many airports?
I seem to remember something about folding wingtips on the 777 so it could fit airports around the world. Obviously that never happened!


Actually it was a folding wing about the outer 1/4. Before anyone tells me I am nuts, I have actually seen the prototype wing section. At Paine Field in Everett I volunteer restoring the Comet and the first 727 at the Museum of Flight Restoration Center. On the ramp by the hanger where they keep the Boeing 247 stored is a jig and wing section that is just what Everett67 is asking about. My guess by looking at it is that the weight of the needed additional structure and the penalty of lost fuel capacity is probably why it was never used. The restoration center is open to the public and while working on the ramp many people often ask me what the jig and wing section is for. For anyone interested, it is a blue jig assembly with a white wing section in it with yellow hydraulic actuators on the lower wing surface. Perhaps some of the spotters here will make it over and post a pic.

[Edited 2008-11-22 04:44:42]

[Edited 2008-11-22 04:45:17]
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parapente
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:17 pm

This is not going to be too helpful I am afraid (as I can't find it) But I recently listened to an interview (telephone on web) between a correspondant and the CEO of the blended winglet company. He covers just about every aspect. He states categorically that they are develping winglets for the 777.Also talks about the spiroid winglet. He (whilst being polite) states that he does not really understand raked wingtips.By that I believe that he (of course) ungerstands what increasing the span of a wing does -but not wing/drag vortex reduction. He was also asked about his involvement with airbus.Other than to say that they are working together he was bound to silence by a confidentially agreement.He was however asked abot the 380. He felt that wing fences were rather old technoligy I gather and would love to see what his technology would do.He emphasised that the main benefit was in cruise yet Southwest Airlines and others were getting 5% on their (short range)737's. So the longer the leg the better it gets.5% on a 7,000 mile leg would be awsome.I recall however that Airbus wanted all the span they could get on the 380.However that was in theory. Now that they have half a dozen in service perhaps they may relook at this -depending on what numbers they are getting (lift/drag) from the existing (fence) configuration.
 
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:25 pm



Quoting LH4116 (Reply 11):
Quoting Everett67 (Reply 12):
I seem to remember something about folding wingtips on the 777 so it could fit airports around the world. Obviously that never happened!

I have also read that somewhere, but after than i haven't heard anything more about it. It would have been cool though.

As ApChigoSea mentions the folding wing was quite real. IIRC AA wanted it. This was to save gate space. So Boeing spent quite a bit of $$$ developing it. But given the weight and cost penalty no one ordered it in the end.
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SEPilot
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:17 pm



Quoting Everett67 (Reply 10):
I seem to remember something about folding wingtips on the 777 so it could fit airports around the world. Obviously that never happened!

When the 777 was in development there was a lot of concern about it not fitting into existing gates (I believe it has an even greater wingspan than the 747.) The folding wingtips were an integral part of the initial design; I have a book about the development of the 777 (don't have the title or author handy) that goes into quite a bit of detail about it.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 22):

As ApChigoSea mentions the folding wing was quite real. IIRC AA wanted it. This was to save gate space. So Boeing spent quite a bit of $$$ developing it. But given the weight and cost penalty no one ordered it in the end.

This is correct. In the end the airlines decided it was cheaper to alter the gates than buy and maintain the folding wingtips, with their weight and maintenance penalties.
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zanl188
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:02 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 22):
As ApChigoSea mentions the folding wing was quite real. IIRC AA wanted it. This was to save gate space. So Boeing spent quite a bit of $$$ developing it. But given the weight and cost penalty no one ordered it in the end.

IIRC Boeing did (perhaps still does) offer the folding tips as an option - though no carrier ever went for it...
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:33 pm



Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 24):
IIRC Boeing did (perhaps still does) offer the folding tips as an option - though no carrier ever went for it...

The did. And it is no longer an offered option. Though I'm sure for the right price...
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BreninTW
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:42 am



Quoting Everett67 (Reply 10):
Back when the 777 was being developed, wasn't there some concern that the wings were going to be too wide for many airports?
I seem to remember something about folding wingtips on the 777 so it could fit airports around the world. Obviously that never happened!

A good friend of mine has a model of an early 777 that has the folding wings.

As has been mentioned, the weight, complexity and other penalties of the design killed it as an idea. It is very weird to see a 777 model sitting on the shelf with wings folded over!
 
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:43 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 25):
Though I'm sure for the right price...

Heck, for the right price, you could probably equip one with swing-wings.  Wink

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Starlionblue
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:21 am



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 27):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 25):
Though I'm sure for the right price...

Heck, for the right price, you could probably equip one with swing-wings. Wink

Bring back the 2707!
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SEPilot
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:48 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 27):

Heck, for the right price, you could probably equip one with swing-wings.

I doubt it. Remember Boeing (and Airbus) has only a finite number of engineers with the requisite experience, and they are going to want to use them in the most productive manner. That is building aircraft that they can sell for a long time to a large number of customers. True, they have at times developed derivatives for good customers that have not enjoyed good sales, but many of them (the 764, for example) they hoped would have wider appeal. But at this point where they are locked in a very bitter struggle for supremacy with Airbus they are not likely to devote the resources necessary to any specialized project that they do not see a wide market for no matter how much money you might dangle in front of them. Look what has happened to the 783; I suspect it's chance of ever flying are even less than the A380F; and that is pretty low. And it is two of Boeing's best and most loyal customers that ordered it. Nevertheless, my expectation is that Boeing will work some deal with them to get them to accept 788's instead; perhaps with some minor modifications to placate them. But the 783 is toast, IMHO. Boeing just can't afford to devote the resources to it for a long, long time to come, what with the need to update or replace the 777, the 737RS, to say nothing of the delays on the 787 and 748.
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RE: Why No Winglets On 777?

Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:45 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 27):

Heck, for the right price, you could probably equip one with swing-wings. Wink

Boeing originally was going to offer a folding wing on the 777 to allow it to take up less gate space.

I know that isn't what you're talking about.
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