Rouge
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How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:45 pm

Hi there!
Mexicana de Aviacion will start their long howls!
This is the first time we'll see an airbus 330 in a Mexican airline. I don't know how many flight attendants work in those planes in other airlines. Can you tell me how do yo do it lately for your long howl's in the A330-200?
Thank you!
 
ANITIX87
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:51 pm

It depends on the airline's seating arrangement. For an airline with three classes, like LX, I think a typical long-haul flight probably has two for first class, 4 for business class, and 8 for economy class, so around 14 total. I know there quite a few members of flight crews here who can probably answer better, as I'm just guessing.

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Tristarsteve
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:54 pm



Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 1):
It depends on the airline's seating arrangement.

The minimum qty of F/As depends on seating. The normal legal minimum is 1 F/A for every 50 seats. So an A330 with 290 seats need 6 F/A.

But the actual number is much higher and depends on the service.
 
Rouge
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:51 pm

i know about the legal minimums, i guess some airlines that already have those planes assign the number of crew members depending on the service, that's what i want to know precisely.
Do you have seats to rest? or a kind of beds?
 
kleinsim
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:00 am



Quoting Rouge (Thread starter):
Mexicana de Aviacion will start their long howls!

Long howls... lol... Loud enough to be heard on the other side of the Atlantic or wherever they're flying their new metal?

 Smile

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Zkpilot
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:34 am

QF operates its Intl configured A332 with 9 crew (L1P, R1P, R1A, L/R2, L/R3, L/R4). Its configured 36J, 199Y. 4 Crew for J (incl CSM), and 5 crew for Y.
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Rouge
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:37 am



Quoting Kleinsim (Reply 4):
wherever they're flying their new metal?

Mexicana will go to London, Madrid and Sao Paolo at the first time in 2009. That's a grate step to go for them! For long time they expected to do those flights, in fact they were waiting for China but Aeromexico took it...
 
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zeke
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:26 am



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 2):

The minimum qty of F/As depends on seating

Normally it depends on the number of doors, you need one for each emergency exit door.
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bond007
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:08 am



Quoting Zeke (Reply 7):
Normally it depends on the number of doors, you need one for each emergency exit door.

The FAA requirement is based upon number of seats, and as Tristar mentioned, is basically one F/A for every 50 seats, or portion of 50 (i.e. 102 seats needs 3 F/As).

If the evacuation demonstrations for certification used more F/As then the FAA required by regs, then that number must be used. There are other exceptions etc...

It may well be based on number of exits in other countries, but I cannot imagine for example, a 45 seat RJ ever requiring 3 F/As, just because there are 3 exits.

I assume there is a correlation between number of seats and number of exits anyway, so there is an indirect relationship.

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zeke
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:06 am



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 8):

I assume there is a correlation between number of seats and number of exits anyway, so there is an indirect relationship.

I know about the 50 seat rule (some countries also have a 36 seat rule), I always thought that was to capture high density configurations, and the number of floor level exits to capture the low density configurations. The minimum number of crew required to be the greater of the two requirements.

Think about the SQ A340-500 (total of 100 business seats installed), 8 floor level exists, we would need to have minimum of 8 cabin crew, one for each door. The rational is that you need a trained crew member to operate the door and activate the slide if needed. That does not apply to over wing exits like on a RJ or 737.

Are you suggesting the FAA would say you just need 2 cabin crew for a 100 seat A340-500 ? we always would have to go for the higher number, not lower.
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Tristarsteve
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:58 pm

We operate the B734 with 149 seats and 3 cabin crew on low business class routes.
 
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zeke
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:03 pm

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 10):
We operate the B734 with 149 seats and 3 cabin crew on low business class routes.

I am uneasy hearing that sort of thing. Cabin crew are on the aircraft for the safety of the passengers, not for serving them food/drink. If you needed to evacuate, you could possibly have one good door not opened as not crew is there to open it.

This is the sort of wording we have in the regs here ...

Required Complement

The complement specified will be that calculated in accordance with Article 18(7)(c)
of the Air Navigation (Hong Kong) Order 1995, or for wide bodied aircraft one Cabin
Crew member per door that is designated an Emergency Exit, whichever is the higher.
In exceptional circumstances the complement may be reduced and will become that
specified in a Permission granted in accordance with the provision to Article 18(7).

Article 18(7)(c) says

(c) On a flight to which this paragraph applies, there shall be carried not less than one cabin attendant for every fifty, or fraction of fifty passenger seats installed in the aircraft:

So for us, on the A330, the minimum would be 8, becuase if the 8 doors.

[Edited 2008-12-05 06:19:39]
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bond007
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:35 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 9):
Are you suggesting the FAA would say you just need 2 cabin crew for a 100 seat A340-500 ? we always would have to go for the higher number, not lower.

Well, this is where the number of F/As used in the evacuation demonstration could come into play. The airline must use the number of F/As used in the demonstration for the aircraft's "maximum seating configuration". So if the airline has other A340-500s in higher-density seating configs, say 310 pax, and they used 7 F/As during the demonstration, then they must use 7 F/As in a reduced seating configuration.

FAR Part 121.391

You cannot depart if ::

"(1) In its maximum seating capacity configuration with fewer flight attendants than the number used during the emergency evacuation demonstration; or

(2) In any reduced seating capacity configuration with fewer flight attendants than the number required by paragraph (a) of this section for that seating capacity plus the number of flight attendants used during the emergency evacuation demonstration that were in excess of those required under paragraph (a) of this section. "

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zeke
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:09 pm



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 12):
Well, this is where the number of F/As used in the evacuation demonstration could come into play. The airline must use the number of F/As used in the demonstration for the aircraft's "maximum seating configuration". So if the airline has other A340-500s in higher-density seating configs, say 310 pax, and they used 7 F/As during the demonstration, then they must use 7 F/As in a reduced seating configuration.

The airline does not the "evacuation demonstration", that was done during certification, it is listed on the TCDS. The maximum certified seating was 375 pax for the A340-500, they would have had a minimum of 8 crew for the certification test.

So in the case of the A330, the minimum would still based upon the number of doors (except for a high density config and 4 type A doors)
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bond007
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:25 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 13):
The airline does not the "evacuation demonstration", that was done during certification,

Yes, I was using 'they' too flippantly!

Quoting Zeke (Reply 13):
So in the case of the A330, the minimum would still based upon the number of doors (except for a high density config and 4 type A doors)

Well, not in the case of the FAA ... it just happens to be the same number of F/As as the number of doors in this example, based on F/As required using the 50 seat rule.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 8):
I assume there is a correlation between number of seats and number of exits anyway, so there is an indirect relationship.

Kind of like that.

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Rouge
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:54 pm



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 8):
It may well be based on number of exits in other countries, but I cannot imagine for example, a 45 seat RJ ever requiring 3 F/As, just because there are 3 exits.

I assume there is a correlation between number of seats and number of exits anyway, so there is an indirect relationship.

I agree with this totally!

Perhaps, now days in Aeromexico for Md's we can do it with 4 FA's with a minimum of 3
B737-700 with 4, min 3
B737-800 with 4, min 4
B767-200 with 7, min 6
B767-300 with 7, min 7
B777 with 12, min 10

our minimums have a relationship with safety (seat numbers and doors) and we can modify service depending on the number of crew members according with safety.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 11):
I am uneasy hearing that sort of thing. Cabin crew are on the aircraft for the safety of the passengers, not for serving them food/drink. If you needed to evacuate, you could possibly have one good door not opened as not crew is there to open it.

Nothing but the truth, we all FA's have the training first of all for safety on board. But i think there's also a relationship between that and the service given, i guess most airlines have agreements that involve crew members for safety and service, i would like to know how is it in the airlines that already fly Long Howl planes.
 
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zeke
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:00 am



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 14):
Well, not in the case of the FAA ... it just happens to be the same number of F/As as the number of doors in this example, based on F/As required using the 50 seat rule.

The average number of cabin crew on A330-200s around the world at the moment is 246, under the 50 seat rule that would mean 5 cabin crew, under the door rule, it still means 8 cabin crew.

Actual in service seating capacities :

Aer Lingus 272
Air France 219
Air Transat 343
bmi 220
bmi 198
Emirates Airlines 278
Emirates Airlines 237
Eva Airways 252
Jet Airways 226
Jet Airways 220
KLM 251
Kingfisher Airlines 217
Malaysia Airlines 229
Northwest Airlines 243
Qantas Airways 299
Qantas Airways 235
Qatar Airways 259
Qatar Airways 281
Qatar Airways 272
Qatar Airways 260
Qatar Airways 259
Qatar Airways 228
Swiss 230
Swiss 196

The above aircraft would be certified for a maximum of 375 or 406 passengers, depending on if Door 3 is type A or Type 1.


Quoting Bond007 (Reply 14):

Kind of like that.

That "relationship" is a function of the doors, for each pair of type A doors you are normally allowed to evacuate 110 pax. Type A doors doors are normally "slide rafts", and Type 1 doors just slides.
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Zkpilot
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:18 am



Quoting Zeke (Reply 16):
The above aircraft would be certified for a maximum of 375 or 406 passengers, depending on if Door 3 is type A or Type 1.

I was under the impression that all A332 had type 1 doors at doors 3, and that the longer A333 had all type A.

So far as crew levels it is often a requirement of 2 factors.... the 1 for 50 rule (or variations of that), and the number of doors/exits... (depending on the country etc there are variances there too however most require 1 FA per door but not exits). The 737 example I think gets away with 3 crew per 4 doors because the flight deck is so close to doors 1 that provided they weren't incapacitated one of the pilots could open one of the front doors.... or that perhaps L1 FA could open that door and then move across to open R1 whilst one of the pilots then continues at L1.
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zeke
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:24 am



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 17):
I was under the impression that all A332 had type 1 doors at doors 3, and that the longer A333 had all type A.

No door 3 can be type 1 or type A for the 332 and 333. CX has both type 1 and type A doors on their 333s, they are not all the same.
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Starlionblue
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:16 pm



Quoting Rouge (Reply 15):
Long Howl planes.

The Mad Nitpicker strikes: It's "long haul", not "long howl".

Not making fun of you. I just wanted to point this out since "long howl" has already set you up for jokes. "Howl" is a sound made by wolves.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
bond007
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:10 pm



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 17):
however most require 1 FA per door but not exits

Although I don't know the FAA specifically mentions F/As per exit, if at all ... just number of seats, and not less F/As than used in evacuation demo. Of course, this would often equate to an F/A per door anyway, but certainly not on some aircraft.

Remember that the assumption is that window exits can be opened by pax (and assistance/guidance given by pax!) not F/As.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 17):
The 737 example I think gets away with 3 crew per 4 doors because

From an FAA standpoint, I'm sure it's because 3 F/As satisfies the number of seats requirement, and the certifcation demonstration successfully evacuated the pax using only 3 F/As.


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Zkpilot
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:07 am



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 20):
From an FAA standpoint, I'm sure it's because 3 F/As satisfies the number of seats requirement, and the certifcation demonstration successfully evacuated the pax using only 3 F/As.

I know for example on a 747 SUD (743,744 etc) that there are restrictions on having pax up there if only 1 F/A. Maybe its an Australian thing, I know that so far as ICAO is concerned its based upon pax numbers, but it seems that a lot of juristictions require an F/A per door.
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Rouge
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:28 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
The Mad Nitpicker strikes: It's "long haul", not "long howl".

I've made a mistake, thank you.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: How Many FA Work In The A330-200?

Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:53 am



Quoting Rouge (Reply 22):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
The Mad Nitpicker strikes: It's "long haul", not "long howl".

I've made a mistake, thank you.

Easily done. English is a very tricky language to spell correctly, even for native speakers.
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