747400sp
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Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:20 pm

Gulfstream recently lunch there newest jet the G 650. Now when I herd about it, I thought may be it would be the size of the BBJ, due to the fact it was stated that the G-650 would be wider than the G-550. As a Gulfstream fan, I was disappointed to see it cabin is not much bigger than the G-550. So I wonder, why Gulfstream did not use a bigger plane design to compete with the BBJ for the G-650?



PS: I think Gulfstream build some of the most beautiful plane in the world, it would have been nice if they design something to put the BBJ to shame.
 
njxc500
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:30 pm

I don't really think the majority of customers for corporate aircraft want bigger airplanes. They put importance in all sorts of things, but I'm not sure there are too many customers that want much bigger than a G5 or Global. Maybe someone can shed some light on typical passenger loads for these airplanes. The Global I know of rarely has more than 4 pax, and they're flying in comfort already. Range and speed are nice, but I'm not sure about much more size.

Also, I think 100,000 lbs. MTOW is a key number for an aircraft, but I can't remember why.

Nick
 
RussianJet
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:33 pm



Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
So I wonder, why Gulfstream did not use a bigger plane design to compete with the BBJ for the G-650?

Because that is not the market they wish to serve in this instance, and it is where their experience and expertise lie. If they saw more potential in a larger plane and thought they had the resources to build one, I'm sure they would. However, they have obviously seen a market for this size and type of jet, and are therefore building it. It's not rocket science. They are good at what they do, and they're in the business to make money.
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RussianJet
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:34 pm



Quoting Njxc500 (Reply 1):
The Global I know of rarely has more than 4 pax, and they're flying in comfort already. Range and speed are nice, but I'm not sure about much more size.

I've seen maybe half a dozen people maximum on a Global. The most I have seen on a BBJ is 25.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
dw747400
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:49 pm



Quoting Njxc500 (Reply 1):
Also, I think 100,000 lbs. MTOW is a key number for an aircraft, but I can't remember why.

It is the maximum allowable takeoff weight out of Teterboro New Jersey (KTEB). That one airport is a VERY big deal for corporate jets, and the inability of BBJs and other jets to get in there has certainly cost Boeing and Airbus in campaigns where the customer would like the extra space, but doesn't need it.

In addition, remember that the G650 isn't simply bigger than a G550; it is faster, has a longer range, and added redundancy. Providing these features without increasing the price TOO MUCH over the G550 also limits the size of the aircraft.

Finally, some people just prefer purpose-built executive jets. When they plop down $70 million, they want to be sure no one mistakes them for a WN jet due for some new paint.
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
atlturbine
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:00 am



Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 4):
It is the maximum allowable takeoff weight out of Teterboro New Jersey (KTEB). That one airport is a VERY big deal for corporate jets,

Very true...the same applies to many other "general aviation" airports around the country.

The big reason for the G 650's design is the fact that Gulfstream is EXTREMELY responsive to their customers. Gulfstream spent millions of dollars & years of customer surveys to determine exactly what their clients wanted in a corporate jet. Dealing with Gulfstream on any technical or operations issue is truly a pleasure.

I think the 600+ orders placed for this aircraft within the first week of its announced production speaks for itself.
To the World you might be One Person but to One Person you might be the World
 
dw747400
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:37 am



Quoting Atlturbine (Reply 5):
I think the 600+ orders placed for this aircraft within the first week of its announced production speaks for itself.

It says 600 people have way too much money and aren't willing to settle for second best.  duck 
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
atlturbine
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:55 am



Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 6):
It says 600 people have way too much money and aren't willing to settle for second best

So true...good thing they launched it when they did!! I wonder how many of those orders are in jeopardy due to the current economy? The companies I deal with are still in good shape & not in Washington DC with hat in hand!
To the World you might be One Person but to One Person you might be the World
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:56 am

It would be silly for Gulfstream to try and compete with the BBJ and Airbus. They are taking a plane (the 737 and A320 families) of which they have already sold thousands and simply putting in custom interiors and tweaking them to give more range instead of payload. The design and certification is already done, and has cost billions. Gulfstream would have to absorb the cost of design and certification over the cost of a few hundred. It just doesn't add up. Gulfstream offers the ultimate in luxury, safety, and performance in a comfortable size for a family or board of directors. They do not offer flying palaces; if that is what you want, go to Boeing or Airbus.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
roseflyer
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:50 pm

Boeing and Airbus have a huge advantage because they can offer larger airplanes at the same acquisition cost as a Gulfstream and lower support costs. The reason for that is that there are thousands of trained, pilots, mechanics and personnel equipped to service those airplanes. Furthermore, the parts and maintenance networks are established. Boeing and Airbus are also very efficient at producing 737s and A320s since they roll off their production lines daily. Gulfstream and Bombardier can offer a more customized product, but if they attempted to upsize to 737 or A319 size, then they seriously would be at an acquisition cost disadvantage because there is no way they could ever design and build a plane to compete in size with a 737 cost competitively.

737s and A319s are often larger than their customers need as said. They are popular though since they cost about the same to acquire and less to maintain. The slower speeds and double the fuel burn are the penalties taken.
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:08 pm

RoseFlyer brings up an excellent point on support and maintenance. I suspect that this is what led Boeing to get into the business in the first place; the knowledge that they could offer a much bigger plane at pretty much the same price as the top end bizjets, and had all of the support in place all around the world. Gulfstream would have to offer something REALLY incredible to overcome that advantage.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
747400sp
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:13 pm



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 9):
Gulfstream and Bombardier can offer a more customized product, but if they attempted to upsize to 737 or A319 size, then they seriously would be at an acquisition cost disadvantage because there is no way they could ever design and build a plane to compete in size with a 737 cost competitively.

You can say that about Gulfstream, but Bombardier is coming out with the C series, which is close to a 737 size, and is the size of a 717 , so Bombardier can build a larger VIP jet. Now will they build a VIP jet off the C series, I think they will.
 
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:28 pm



Quoting 747400sp (Reply 11):

You can say that about Gulfstream, but Bombardier is coming out with the C series, which is close to a 737 size, and is the size of a 717 , so Bombardier can build a larger VIP jet. Now will they build a VIP jet off the C series, I think they will.

No question they could, for the same reason that Boeing and Airbus got into the market. But I wonder whether they would have the necessary appeal. Very, very few people actually have use for a plane the size of an airliner; the Gulfstream offerings are big enough for almost all customers. A private jet based on an airliner offers one thing; over the top size. Bombardier may find itself squeezed into a corner. Those that want the ultimate in speed and luxury will still go for the Gulfstream; those that want a flying palace will still go for Boeing or Airbus. I don't know how big the market for a small airliner based personal jet would be, as it just does not offer anything "ultimate." The one place I can see it fitting in is for a corporation that actually does need to move 20-30 people frequently and are cost conscious. But if they are that cost conscious they will still fly commercial.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
SJCflyer
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:47 pm



Quoting SEPilot (Reply 12):
The one place I can see it fitting in is for a corporation that actually does need to move 20-30 people frequently and are cost conscious. But if they are that cost conscious they will still fly commercial.

True, the really cost conscious companies will continue to fly commercial. But for those companies that are cost conscious and still need to move 20-50 people frequently, they can opt for a RJ in whatever configuration they need. Intel does this running their ERJ shuttle multiple times a day between Northern and Southern California.


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I agree that it may fit a cost conscious company that needs to move 20-30 people long-haul on a regular basis. Then a BBJ or ACJ may make more sense.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 8):
Gulfstream offers the ultimate in luxury, safety, and performance in a comfortable size for a family or board of directors.

I can't speak for every corporation, but I work for a very large, diversified, health care (pharmaceutical, medical device, and nutritional products) company. Our travel policy dictates very strict limits for how many Board Members, Officers, VPs, or even standard employees reporting under one manager can fly on the corporate transports (a mix of G-IVs, Hawker 800XPs, and King Airs) or even on commercial flights. Most of the large companies I've worked for have similar stipulations. It's a disaster clause in the corporate travel policy to ensure business continuity in case of a serious aviation accident.

As a result, I think you will find that there's rarely more than 4-6 passengers on the corporate-owned aircraft of most companies. It's usually 1 or 2 officers of the company, possibly some Presidents or VPs, and their support staff (Admins). Because of this, smaller corporate transports such as Gulfstream and Global Express will always be in higher demand. They're cheaper to operate, have many more airport options, and they're more well-suited to the mission profile of the typical corporate operator.

Just my 2 cents.
Last Trip: SFO-DXB-BLR-DXB-SFO; EK B773ER/A332 C-Class ---- Next Trip: SFO-LHR-BRU-MUC-LHR-SFO; BA/LH 744/A319; C-Class
 
MD-90
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:50 pm



Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
Gulfstream recently lunch there newest jet the G 650. Now when I herd about it, I thought may be it would be the size of the BBJ, due to the fact it was stated that the G-650 would be wider than the G-550. As a Gulfstream fan, I was disappointed to see it cabin is not much bigger than the G-550. So I wonder, why Gulfstream did not use a bigger plane design to compete with the BBJ for the G-650?

Not to mention that designing an airplane the size of a BBJ would be crazy expensive for Gulfstream. The 650 is already a very costly project, but a 737-size airframe would be even more costly and Gulfstream couldn't amortize it over 4000 commercial airframes. Plus what demand there is for BBJ-size jets is adequately filled by the BBJs and Airbus CJs.

I read the debut article about it in Flying Magazine and I think Gulfstream has hit an absolute homerun with the 650.
 
dw747400
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:10 pm



Quoting SEPilot (Reply 12):
Very, very few people actually have use for a plane the size of an airliner; the Gulfstream offerings are big enough for almost all customers. A private jet based on an airliner offers one thing; over the top size.

There are more than handful out there, but it seems that an increasing number of airliner conversions are hitting the market as well. You already discussed why its tough for Gulfstream to compete on cost with new-build airframes; a mid-life widebody is cheaper still. Even with a $20 million interior, you can still get a 767 for the price of a G550, and when your only putting on 800 hours a year its feasible

Quote:
They're cheaper to operate, have many more airport options, and they're more well-suited to the mission profile of the typical corporate operator.

The more airports option is a big one, especially in the congested northeast. With the new slots programs at EWR and JFK, corporate jets that can use TEB and HPN are going to be in even higher demand.

Either that, or get a helicopter out to SWF and pick up your 767 there....
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
acNDTTech
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:18 am

The cabin is longer, taller and wider than anything else in it's class. It will carry 8 pax and 4 crew 7000nm at Mach 0.85 or 5000nm at Mach 0.9.....and do this at 51,000'. What more could ya ask for? We are Gulfstream, we don't build a business jet, we build THE business jet!
 
MD-90
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:55 am



Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 15):
There are more than handful out there, but it seems that an increasing number of airliner conversions are hitting the market as well. You already discussed why its tough for Gulfstream to compete on cost with new-build airframes; a mid-life widebody is cheaper still. Even with a $20 million interior, you can still get a 767 for the price of a G550, and when your only putting on 800 hours a year its feasible

But the operating costs!
 
acNDTTech
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:02 am



Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 15):
There are more than handful out there, but it seems that an increasing number of airliner conversions are hitting the market as well. You already discussed why its tough for Gulfstream to compete on cost with new-build airframes; a mid-life widebody is cheaper still. Even with a $20 million interior, you can still get a 767 for the price of a G550, and when your only putting on 800 hours a year its feasible

One of the biggest things to remember about the "business class" airplane - they are used as tools so that companys can continue making money. Sure, these aircraft aren't cheap to operate, but by not being able to get from point A, to point B, to point C, and back to point A may cost company's millions of dollars. Plus, the idea of being able to have a meeting, a nice meal, or even just relax in private is a big deal too. Finally, there are a few people out there that do have "private" jets for their own pleasure. This group is a very small minority of owners - These jets (from Citations and Lears up to B-747s and A-340s) are status symbols to them. Again, even most of these individuals use these aircraft in the operation of their own personal business endevors.
 
soon7x7
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:00 am

My clients that have G650's on order just always end up upgrading the Gulfstream fleets they already have. Gulfstream knows that they have their cornered niche and everytime they redevelop a model, a certain percentage of their customers will want to upgrade...Gulfstream almost competes against itself. Most Gulfstream flight dept's don't want Boeing heavy iron, Airbus heavy iron as their hangar facilities won't facilitate them...logistically doesn't make sense for them. Airports like HPN, TEB, and others, the two Gulftream Capitals of America, hardly have room to park Gulfstreams as it stands now, they absolutely don't have room for a ramp full of BBJ's. With new global business centers such as Dubai, Mombai, etc...G owners want range, seems that what Gulfstream keeps offering...I understand that the classic oval PAX windows are going to be even larger...currently they are about 18"x24".
 
donniecs
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:35 am



Quoting Atlturbine (Reply 5):
I think the 600+ orders placed for this aircraft within the first week of its announced production speaks for itself.

I think that 600+ orders is a bit steep, maybe like 60 or so letters of intent. In all my trips to Savannah, Long Beach and Luton in the last year the rumor was 60-70 with the initial offering, 600+ would almost be double of their entire GV production run.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 9):
Boeing and Airbus have a huge advantage because they can offer larger airplanes at the same acquisition cost as a Gulfstream and lower support costs.

Gulfstream support is getting better (cheaper), Jet Aviation bought out Midcoast a few years ago and Gulfstream just bought out Jet Aviation and Savannah Air Center so your choices of services centers (factory or otherwise) is growing. Plus Gulfstream operates a couple G150's for parts delivery when they can provide faster delivery than conventional means for AOG deliveries.

As mentioned Gulfstream wanted to keep their baby under the 100,000lbs marks for the obvious reasons stated. Also look at the limited use of composites compared to what could have been used. I believe they are setting themselves of to be able to implement more composites into the the aircraft in order to be able to stretch it (G750) without going over that 100k mark on weight. Plus they are successfully tested FBW and FBwireless so they are showing that they are willing to go against their tried and true designs and develop new technology for production.

BBJ's and ACJ's can't complete with Gulfstream when it comes to speed, altitude or distance and the Global can't complete when it comes to reliability and parts availability. You just need to ask yourself how many people you want to carry.
Charlie - Gulfstream flight mechanic
 
acNDTTech
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:24 am



Quoting Soon7x7 (Reply 19):
My clients that have G650's on order just always end up upgrading the Gulfstream fleets they already have. Gulfstream knows that they have their cornered niche and everytime they redevelop a model, a certain percentage of their customers will want to upgrade...Gulfstream almost competes against itself.

We were talking about that the other day, the used Gulfstream market will be expanding when the orders for the 650 start to be delivered. Our current customers are definately looking forward to the 650, almost as much as we are.
 
donniecs
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:59 pm



Quoting Soon7x7 (Reply 19):
Gulfstream knows that they have their cornered niche and everytime they redevelop a model, a certain percentage of their customers will want to upgrade...Gulfstream almost competes against itself.

This has worked well for Gulfstream ever since the GI and GII's. The used market on Gulfstreams is and always has been strong and still makes Gulfstream a lot of money. The only true competitor for the Gulfstream right now is the Global Express.

Gulfstream has a bad habit (IMO) of taking a base model and tweaking it for customers. It makes for a confusing product line, not to mention parts and maintenance when everything is so similar. Look at the GV, G500, G350, G450, G550, they are all basically the same airplane. I under stand the G550 (new Planeview cockpit) from the GV but the G500 and the G350 for those that wanted a G550 but didn't want to write the check got the G350 and G450 (basically G550's without the range, HMG's and a few other minor items). Even the GIV had the GIV and GIV SP, GIII has the non-VSCF (DC) and the VSCF (AC) models and the GII line was crazy.

Also everybody is talking about how much bigger the G650 is going to be. If you look at the exterior dimensions, it's only really only inches bigger expect for length (38" longer). The new tube (a first since the GI and 14" wider on the inside), complete with new windows (even larger than the already largest in the industry) is what is going to sell this machine to customers.
Charlie - Gulfstream flight mechanic
 
soon7x7
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:36 am



Quoting Donniecs (Reply 22):

Gulfstream is just like Nikon...the minute you've gotten comfortable w/ the new gear, acquired the upgrades...Voila!...we have a NEW AND BETTER MOUSETRAP!...  dollarsign   dollarsign   dollarsign 
 
liedetectors
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:36 pm



Quoting Donniecs (Reply 22):
It makes for a confusing product line, not to mention parts and maintenance when everything is so similar. Look at the GV, G500, G350, G450, G550, they are all basically the same airplane. I under stand the G550 (new Planeview cockpit) from the GV but the G500 and the G350 for those that wanted a G550 but didn't want to write the check got the G350 and G450 (basically G550's without the range

Not totally accurate. The only thing common between the GIV/GIV-SP and the GV is the basic fuselage stucture and a hand full of systems. The engines, wings, tails, and cockpit are all different.

The orignal GIV certified in the 80s. a few years later, Gulfstream certified a higher gross weight version and called it GIV-SP. In the early 90s, Gulfstream introduced the GV. And established a new price point in the Bizjet market. In the late 90s/early 2000s GAC introduced the GV-SP which had the planeview cockpit and increased the max take off thrust of the BR710. When General Dynamics acquired the IAI airplanes (the Astra and Galaxy) they rebranded the whole product line to a common numbering scheme. I will summarize the labeling as follows:

GIV - Original GIV as certified.

GIV-SP - an increased gross weight version of GIV (later designated as G400)

G300 was identical to the GIV-SP/G400 except it has a fuel system mod to reduce the fuel capacity and thus limit the range.

GV - Original GV as certified

GV-SP - Planview/higher thrust engines (later designated G550)

G500 is identical to the G550 except it has a fuel system mod to reduce the fuel capacity and thus limit the range

IAI Astra became the G100 (later replaced by new G150 in 2005)

IAI Galaxy became the G200 (to be replaced by the newly announced G250)

G450 - is the new version of the G400. it has the same cockpit and forward fuselage as the G550 and has uprated Tay engines. (The G400 was retired when G450 went into service)

G350 is identical to the G450 except it has a fuel system mod to reduce the fuel capacity and thus limit the range. (The G300 was retired when G350 went into service)
If it was said by us, then it must be true.
 
atlturbine
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:05 am



Quoting Donniecs (Reply 20):
I think that 600+ orders is a bit steep, maybe like 60 or so letters of intent. In all my trips to Savannah, Long Beach and Luton in the last year the rumor was 60-70 with the initial offering, 600+ would almost be double of their entire GV production run.

"Gulfstream got an overwhelming response to its G650 program launch announcement in mid-March, receiving Letters of Intent (LOI) for some 500 aircraft when the manufacturer began accepting deposits in April (BA, April 28/189)."

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...sinessweekly&id=news/G65007288.xml

"Since the business jet manufacturer began taking orders for its newest and widest-ranging plane earlier this year, analysts estimate Gulfstream has booked at least 100 orders for the G650, with another 500 signed letters of intent - figures Chabraja wouldn't confirm, but said weren't too far off."

http://savannahnow.com/node/537012

Donniecs..I did not base that number on rumors..rather from news articles from reputable news outlets. There are numerous other stories that list similar numbers.

Mitch
To the World you might be One Person but to One Person you might be the World
 
donniecs
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:45 am



Quoting Liedetectors (Reply 24):
Not totally accurate. The only thing common between the GIV/GIV-SP and the GV is the basic fuselage stucture and a hand full of systems. The engines, wings, tails, and cockpit are all different.

That was the point I was trying to make, you posted a very long and confusing list for the average aviation person to interpolate. It's a big list for a really small product line thats had many upgrades, ATC's and ASC to choose from. The switch from roman numerals to the numbering system can also be associated with General Dynamics when they bought Gulfstream.

Quoting Atlturbine (Reply 25):
Donniecs..I did not base that number on rumors..rather from news articles from reputable news outlets. There are numerous other stories that list similar numbers.

I have seem those numbers also. I just believe that they are are a little over optimistic. Gulfstream's Breakfast Minutes cited either 60-70 with the initial offering which was still their best initial numbers for a new type in company history (Gulfstream still has always have keep these kinds of numbers hush hush though). I could very well be wrong but I think more initial sales and LOIs than any other total production run that Gulfstream had is a stretch personally. You have approx. a 2 year wait for a new Gulfstream build now, even with the new service center and expanded production facilities that would be a huge wait for a G650 (even though sales will slow a bit over time).

Of course all of this is my opinion. No doubt that even with the economy and downturn in cooperate aviation the the G650 is going to be hugely successful aircraft! It will be interesting if they can keep the G650 on the GV type certificate (like all other aircraft currently in production, minus the G150 and G200). The word on the street is Gulfstream is doing battle with the FAA becuse the FAA wants a new type rating because of FBW instead of just the usual differences training.

V/R
Charlie - Gulfstream flight mechanic
 
atlturbine
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:13 am



Quoting Donniecs (Reply 26):
I have seem those numbers also. I just believe that they are are a little over optimistic. Gulfstream's Breakfast Minutes cited either 60-70 with the initial offering which was still their best initial numbers for a new type in company history (Gulfstream still has always have keep these kinds of numbers hush hush though). I could very well be wrong but I think more initial sales and LOIs than any other total production run that Gulfstream had is a stretch personally.

I saw that as well in Breakfast Minutes Donniecs. You are obviously very familiar with this company. So you know how conservative they are! Have you ever made a mistake on CMP & had a phone call or email 3 minuites after submitting...they act like you are working on the space shuttle. Great point about the economy BTW, I am sure the numbers are shrinking but I am sure/hope they will do well....lots of airframes out there to maintain.

You guys offer up an awesome level of expertize & experience....someone should start a thread on how Gulfstream has helped you out of a situation...either through technical or AOG support that saved the day.
To the World you might be One Person but to One Person you might be the World
 
acNDTTech
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:40 am



Quoting Atlturbine (Reply 27):
.someone should start a thread on how Gulfstream has helped you out of a situation..

Gulfstream definately helped me out of a situation. I was working at a GREAT FBO in Battle Creek, MI, but the snow finally got to me. Gulfstream offered me a job, I accepted.....they got me out of that snowy situation! I miss my old company, but this place is even better. Somebody upstairs sure is watching over my shoulder.
 Big grin
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:14 pm



Quoting Donniecs (Reply 26):
Not totally accurate. The only thing common between the GIV/GIV-SP and the GV is the basic fuselage stucture and a hand full of systems. The engines, wings, tails, and cockpit are all different.

The cockpit isn't actually that different, the GIV had the Honeywell SPZ-8400 avionics suite, and the classic G-V had the SPZ-8500, which still consists of 6- CRT screens...the capability and adaptability improved greatly though, as well as all of the overhead and pedistal configs. Either way, both fly like a dream.

Quoting Donniecs (Reply 26):
It will be interesting if they can keep the G650 on the GV type certificate (like all other aircraft currently in production, minus the G150 and G200). The word on the street is Gulfstream is doing battle with the FAA becuse the FAA wants a new type rating because of FBW instead of just the usual differences training.

From what I've been hearing from some of my friends in Flight Test, there's no way at this point that the FAA will buy off on it- too many differences between it and the GV/G350/G450/G500/G550 that already exist on the GV ticket. Will be interesting to see either way!

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5257
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:25 pm



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 9):
They are popular though since they cost about the same to acquire and less to maintain. The slower speeds and double the fuel burn are the penalties taken.

Indeed, thus this caveat is worth heeding.....

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 17):
But the operating costs!



Quoting 747400sp (Reply 11):
Now will they build a VIP jet off the C series, I think they will.

They'd have to make the C-Series a reality first.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 12):
A private jet based on an airliner offers one thing; over the top size. Bombardier may find itself squeezed into a corner. Those that want the ultimate in speed and luxury will still go for the Gulfstream;



Quoting SJCflyer (Reply 13):
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 12):
The one place I can see it fitting in is for a corporation that actually does need to move 20-30 people frequently and are cost conscious. But if they are that cost conscious they will still fly commercial.

Precisely the raison d'etre of companies such as this, which will also have a Gulfstream G550 in their fleet in addition to the A318 Elite.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...st-airbus-a318-elite-for-asia.html

Quoting Atlturbine (Reply 7):
So true...good thing they launched it when they did!! I wonder how many of those orders are in jeopardy due to the current economy?

Which leads one to wonder if BA would push through with its premium A318 Elite service across the pond.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
wassupsf
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Wed May 13, 2009 9:23 pm

I was at the launch of the G650 and worked at the Service Center in Savannah for a time. I know it has already been addressed but I would like to tell everyone from a Gulfstreamers point of view. The main purpose of any of Gulfstream is to move up to 12 people normally, any distance, quickly, comfortably, and reliably as possible. Gulfstream are not only the best looking corporate jets in the world but have the best support structure of any company. The main reason that the G650 wasn't built larger is that Gulfstreams can land at almost any airport in the world. There size and weight allow customers to have access to many more areas than a BBJ or larger aircraft can get into to. That feature alone is enough to make customers want to buy the product. Plus, I have asked many of our customers what they think of Gulfstreams, many own multiple brands and all say the Gulfstreams are the best. We put customer and safety ahead of everything else. They know that when they fly we are there with them.
 
Flighty
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Wed May 13, 2009 11:18 pm

One interesting thing I read, and I don't know if this is true, was that the G650 burns substantially less fuel on a 5500km jouney than its smaller sibling, the G550. This is because of newer, higher tech engines, a clean-sheet wing design (whereas the G550 descends from the original G-II of the early 1960s) and lighter materials. This is how the new 650 maintains an under-100k lbs weight category while increasing the cabin space and performance. Gulfstream seem to have built the perfect corporate jet. Personally, I would rather have a Phoenix converted CRJ and pocket the money difference. But whatever.
 
dw747400
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Wed May 13, 2009 11:56 pm

Wow... how'd this come back?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 32):
Personally, I would rather have a Phoenix converted CRJ and pocket the money difference. But whatever.

Even with additional tanks and a nice interior, you can't match the speed and range of a high-end Gulfstream. But ultimately it is what fits your mission. If you only do transcons and have an extra 30 minutes to burn on a leg, save the cash and enjoy the spacious cabin of your CRJ (that sounds strange, but in a VIP config, CRJs are nice).

Quoting Wassupsf (Reply 31):
Plus, I have asked many of our customers what they think of Gulfstreams, many own multiple brands and all say the Gulfstreams are the best

Gulfstream has several key strengths that make many customers very proud of their aircraft.

1. Service--they take care of customers
2. Flexibility--Range, Speed, Field capability... pick any three.
3. Prestige--Gulfstream II just sounds better than Global Express XRS.

The only to complaints I hear on a regular basis:
1. Acquisition cost--even when you get what you pay for, it is a lot of money.
2. Cabin width. Despite the fact that high-end Gulfstreams are probably the most versatile overall biz-jet on the market from an operational perspective, the guy in the back puts a lot of weight on the interior. the G650 should go a long way to fixing this while preserving the qualities that make the GV/G550 so popular.
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
wassupsf
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Thu May 14, 2009 12:25 am

Good points, and Gulfstream management did hear from the customer and their number one complaint was cost of parts. They will get very restless if their is something wrong with the interior, seems more than if something mechanical or electrical is wrong.

I love the aircraft not just because I worked at the home Service Center, but more because when you look at a Gulfstream it looks like what I always imagined a plane would be. It is sleek, fast, makes other people envious. It is fun to fly and smooth.

If there was one thing I as a tech would complain about. The engineers like to put items that fail in the worst possible areas. Makes it bad for customers and maintenance people alike.

But other than that, you will not find a better aircraft to fly on. Its no wonder that companies around the world buy them. The 650 is the next aircraft that will wear the Gulfstream name, hopefully it can exceed expectations. As for what is next, I wouldn't be looking for a 750, if I was a guessing man I would look for the SS version. If the management can convince congress that super sonic overland travel is safe and affordable they have the technology to get it going.
 
Max Q
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Sat May 16, 2009 5:21 am

All very good points but there is one that has not been considered that may seem trivial when comparing Gulfstreams to Boeing and Airbus.


Rear mounted engines, the noise is behind you, this is a huge deal..
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
njxc500
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Sat May 16, 2009 4:22 pm

Rear mounted engines don't seem to be an issue. I've been on a global, and you basically don't hear the engines. The cabins in these airplanes are so quiet that it's unbelievable.

Technically, I think the engines specifically on Bombardier's Global line are mounted aft of the rear bulkhead, so they're not attached to the cabin, or the pressurized section of the fuselage. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this, but if I'm right it must have a huge effect on noise transfer.....

Nick
 
arffdude
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Sat May 16, 2009 5:32 pm



Quoting Atlturbine (Reply 25):
GV-SP - Planview/higher thrust engines (later designated G550)

The G550 is also a window length longer than the regular GV, isn't it? Six windows per side on the GV versus seven on the 550?
 
wassupsf
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Sat May 16, 2009 6:29 pm

No the 550 is roughly the same airframe as the GV what makes it a 50 series is the avionics upgrades and entertainment system. They went from CRT display on old Honeywell system to 14 inch LCD PFD's with Planeview. It also has an upgraded Collins entertainment system installed were as the GV had a more conventional system. The 550 is a wonderful airplane, quiet, power like you can't imagine, it does share the motor with the Global but Gulfstream is just better. I can't explain it.
 
Max Q
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Sun May 17, 2009 6:27 am



Quoting Njxc500 (Reply 36):
28 secs ago) and read 111 times:


Rear mounted engines don't seem to be an issue. I've been on a global, and you basically don't hear the engines. The cabins in these airplanes are so quiet that it's unbelievable.

Exactly my point !!
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
brons2
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Sun May 17, 2009 7:26 am



Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 4):

Finally, some people just prefer purpose-built executive jets. When they plop down $70 million, they want to be sure no one mistakes them for a WN jet due for some new paint.

$70 million bucks and I'm shopping for a used A330. IMO, of course.

Figure $15,000 DOC per flight hour and 500 hours per year...$7.5 mill/yr operating costs.

(then I woke up)  Big grin
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
wassupsf
Posts: 9
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Sun May 17, 2009 3:05 pm

Nope I am going for a G550, power, interior, and ability to land where ever I want to go. Don't forget, they landed a G II in Antarctica on the ice a couple years back!
 
liedetectors
Posts: 323
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Tue May 19, 2009 1:15 am



Quoting Donniecs (Reply 26):
The switch from roman numerals to the numbering system can also be associated with General Dynamics when they bought Gulfstream.

That and as an easy way to incorporate the IAI Galaxy and Astra into a common brand label.

Quoting ARFFdude (Reply 37):
The G550 is also a window length longer than the regular GV, isn't it? Six windows per side on the GV versus seven on the 550?

No. The seventh window showed up due to when the cockpit got reworked with smaller avionics, the avionics racks behind the cockpit got small and the door moved forward allowing for the 7th window. If i recall, since there is no door on the right side, there was an option for the GV classic, to have a 7th window on the right side.

To simplify the manufacturing process, the G450 incorporates the same nose section as the G550 and thus the G450 and now one foot longer than its older GIV/G400 brothers.
If it was said by us, then it must be true.
 
keesje
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Tue May 19, 2009 9:42 pm

Gulfstream aims at a specific segment, obviously not the sae as the BBJ/Airbusses.

When they launched the G650 I was really surprized why they made cabin height 75 inch/ 1.95m.

Succesfull men are long, statistically.

IMO Gulfstream underestimates the psygological dissapointed of ordering a very expensive long haul jet were a man can nearly walk straight up..

4-5 inch extra could have made such a perceptional difference.

How long are the managers who thought 75inch is ok?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
donniecs
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Wed May 20, 2009 1:43 am



Quoting Keesje (Reply 43):
How long are the managers who thought 75inch is ok?

That cabin internal height is 77 inches per the gulfstream site. The current G550 is cabin height is 74 inches. The G650 is going to be 14 inches wider also. That is going to be a huge perceptual difference. The CEOs are probably shorter than 6' 5"! Not everybody that owns a Gulfstream is a form NBA player. Larger cabin, biggest windows, lowest cabin altitude at cruise, longest range, fastest speed, best support in the industry, very reliable reputation, Gulfstream does extremely well within their target customers.
Charlie - Gulfstream flight mechanic
 
MD-90
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Wed May 20, 2009 6:58 am



Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 29):
the GIV had the Honeywell SPZ-8400 avionics suite

And wasn't that the first true integrated electronic flight deck on a business jet? I think I remember reading that somewhere.

Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 33):
3. Prestige--Gulfstream II just sounds better than Global Express XRS.

While the "XRS" sounds a bit silly, I've always thought that "Global Express" was an elegant name. I certainly like the abbreviation "GLEX.'

Quoting DonnieCS (Reply 44):
fastest speed

0.925 versus 0.92 of the Citation X does seem just a bit...I don't know, silly I guess just so that Gulfstream can say that it's the fastest bizjet out there. If Gulfstream can get that extra 0.005 mach out of that big airframe, I wonder if Cessna will eventually come up with it's own model upgrade to win back the crown? A Citation X Type-S, lol.
 
donniecs
Posts: 56
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Wed May 20, 2009 6:23 pm



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 45):
0.925 versus 0.92 of the Citation X does seem just a bit...I don't know, silly I guess just so that Gulfstream can say that it's the fastest bizjet out there.

Agreed this was merely and advertising gimmick, although Gulfstream does some of the highest realistic cruise speeds during long range operations for a business jet.
Charlie - Gulfstream flight mechanic
 
dw747400
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RE: Why The Gulfstream G 650 Is Not Larger?

Thu May 21, 2009 1:24 am



Quoting DonnieCS (Reply 46):
although Gulfstream does some of the highest realistic cruise speeds during long range operations for a business jet.

Agreed. Many of the aircraft I work with loose an incredible amount of range when they get pushed more than a few .02 or .03 over their LRC cruise. GIV, for example, can do most missions at a comfortable M.80, and the G550 is capable of holding M.85 on all but the longest legs.
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot

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