747400sp
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Anybody Know Anything About China Widebody?

Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:58 pm

I know that China has been working on a widebody design, but I thought it was in the 787/ A350 size area. I found out that China is working on a superjumbo.
So here is my question, do anybody know anything about the design of China widebody/ Superjumbo? Is it going to be a midsize widebody or a Superjumbo?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Anybody Know Anything About China Widebody?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:59 am

China is always "working on a design". I'll believe it when they cut metal.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Rheinbote
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RE: Anybody Know Anything About China Widebody?

Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:46 pm

I bet the next airliner we'll see from China, if any, is an unlicensed copy of the A320. They are not capable yet of developing their own airliner without help from the outside, be the help deliberate or not.
 
flyf15
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RE: Anybody Know Anything About China Widebody?

Sat Dec 20, 2008 10:53 pm

If China develops a widebody, I wouldn't be surprised to see it be some kind of A300 copy.
 
UAL747
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RE: Anybody Know Anything About China Widebody?

Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:58 am

Maybe they'll design a nice tri-jet widebody!

My guess it will be something along the lines of an A330/777 copy. Probably almost carbon copy.

UAL
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Caryjack
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RE: Anybody Know Anything About China Widebody?

Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:01 am



Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
I found out that China is working on a superjumbo.

How did you find this out? By superjumbo you can only be referring to an A380 sized airliner. Only the most fervent nationalist could believe that China is capable of such a Great Leap Forward.  expressionless 

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
China is always "working on a design".

I think "working to copy a design" is closer to the truth, and that's being generous. It's ironic that one of the brightest persons I know is a young Chinese soon-to-be aerospace engineer who hopes to be a Boeing intern.  yes  Go figure.

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 3):
If China develops a widebody, I wouldn't be surprised to see it be some kind of A300 copy.

This gets my vote. It's an excellent aircraft that works well for pax and cargo plus many are available to copy at good prices.  thumbsup  Plus, who is going to complain?

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 4):
Probably almost carbon copy

You’re probably right and the plane will probably almost make it into service. I understand that the Chinese attempted to copy a Boeing airliner many years back. I believe they purchased a 707 then took it completely apart and copied each part. They managed to assemble two of their versions and one actually flew.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Y-10

Perhaps the Chinese should take a page out of their auto industry's play book (copied from the Koreans) - start small with a cheep, sort of good product then work your way up. I'm told that Chinese cars will be introduced in the US in 2010 (the Cherry I believe). Outside of political interference, there's no reason it can't work.  thumbsup   thumbsup 
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jan/15/business/fi-chinacar15
Thanks,
Cary
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Anybody Know Anything About China Widebody?

Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:48 am

China would probably Reverse Engineer an A300.
regds
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Starlionblue
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RE: Anybody Know Anything About China Widebody?

Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:00 am



Quoting Caryjack (Reply 5):

Perhaps the Chinese should take a page out of their auto industry's play book (copied from the Koreans)

That model was copied by the Koreans from the Japanese.  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Alessandro
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RE: Anybody Know Anything About China Widebody?

Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:55 pm



Quoting Caryjack (Reply 5):
You’re probably right and the plane will probably almost make it into service. I understand that the Chinese attempted to copy a Boeing airliner many years back. I believe they purchased a 707 then took it completely apart and copied each part. They managed to assemble two of their versions and one actually flew.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangha..._Y-10

With the exception of the engines which they took from the B707.
I agree the A300 will be the next candidate for copy, A320 they already assemble in PRC so no point compete against yourself.
I doubt PRC will sell "homegrown" product in US, rather buy SAAB or Volvo from GM/Ford.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Anybody Know Anything About China Widebody?

Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:13 am



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 8):
I doubt PRC will sell "homegrown" product in US, rather buy SAAB or Volvo from GM/Ford.

Nobody thought the Japanese would sell in the US. Then nobody thought the Koreans would sell...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Anybody Know Anything About China Widebody?

Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:21 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
Nobody thought the Japanese would sell in the US. Then nobody thought the Koreans would sell...

True, but it took quite a while to overcome that resistance. Airliners are much harder to sell than automobiles; all manufacturers currently selling them have established track records and support networks. In the large airliner field (A & B), the entry costs will be enormous. On top of that, it will be necessary to establish a perfect safety record. Any crash that gets blamed on the aircraft will destroy any chance of selling to a Western airline. I'm not saying that they can't do it, but it will be very, very difficult.
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RussianJet
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RE: Anybody Know Anything About China Widebody?

Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:45 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
I'll believe it when they cut metal

Or spin fibres?  Smile

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 4):
Maybe they'll design a nice tri-jet widebody!

We can only hope.

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 5):
I think "working to copy a design" is closer to the truth

Oh, this again. Right, we all know about the reverse engineering in the past and so on, and yes the new ARJ looks very much like a DC-9, but as has been discussed at length the fact is that it is in fact significantly different from the DC-9 series both in terms of some external features and, more importantly, what lies under the skin. It may be easy and seem funny to constantly go on about 'copying' designs, but underestimate China at your peril.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
Alessandro
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RE: Anybody Know Anything About China Widebody?

Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:03 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):


Nobody thought the Japanese would sell in the US. Then nobody thought the Koreans would sell...

The Japanese has been selling cars in the US since 1950ies, so nothing new about that.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Caryjack
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RE: Anybody Know Anything About China Widebody?

Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:27 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6):
China would probably Reverse Engineer an A300.

Reverse engineering implies analysis and improvement. If that's the case an A300 would make an excellant starting point.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 7):
That model was copied by the Koreans from the Japanese.

 checkmark 
You're right of course and the result was the same for sure but I don't think the Japanese plan called for much more than survival.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 11):
the new ARJ looks very much like a DC-9, but as has been discussed at length the fact is that it is in fact significantly different from the DC-9 series both in terms of some external features and, more importantly, what lies under the skin.

I haven't followed this discussion but I'm sure you're right so a considerable ammount of engineering went into making a good airliner better. This is much different than that Chinese example of buying a good airliner to copy piece by piece and expecting anything resembling good results. By your account people have discussed the merrits of DC-9s vs ARJs but you've never seen that same discussion about the 707 vs the Y-10.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 11):
It may be easy and seem funny to constantly go on about 'copying' designs

 whiteflag 
Easy? It's in your face but I see nothing funny about it. The auto industry example was used to suggest how China could develope it's own products from the ground up then perhaps transfer that play book to the avation industry.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 11):
underestimate China at your peril

No one here has underestimated China - please review the OP.

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
China is working on a superjumbo.

It's taken most of Europe's avation resoruces to put the superjumbo into service. If you think China can do it as a first step then you've orverestimted them.
Perhaps China should take a page out of Japan's play book. Start with the wings then work your way fore & aft.  wink 

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 12):
The Japanese has been selling cars in the US since 1950ies, so nothing new about that.

Considering where Japanese were in the 1940s, I'd say it was new and more than remarkable.  yes 
Thanks,
Cary
 
747400sp
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RE: Anybody Know Anything About China Widebody?

Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:39 pm

Check out this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIPKqUHqJSo


This should help.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Anybody Know Anything About China Widebody?

Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:33 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 12):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):


Nobody thought the Japanese would sell in the US. Then nobody thought the Koreans would sell...

The Japanese has been selling cars in the US since 1950ies, so nothing new about that.

My point was that if today people think PRC cars will sell in the US, they are just repeating the same statements made about Japanese cars back in the day. And the naysayers were wrong at the time.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 10):
. In the large airliner field (A & B), the entry costs will be enormous. On top of that, it will be necessary to establish a perfect safety record. Any crash that gets blamed on the aircraft will destroy any chance of selling to a Western airline. I'm not saying that they can't do it, but it will be very, very difficult.

Quite right. This also means that starting with a widebody is probably not the best course of action
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Alessandro
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RE: Anybody Know Anything About China Widebody?

Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:31 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 15):
nothing new about that.

My point was that if today people think PRC cars will sell in the US, they are just repeating the same statements made about Japanese cars back in the day. And the naysayers were wrong at the time.

I´m in doubt, especially since the test of Landwind on EuroNcap. Sure KIA sells cars here and
Dacia throu Renault (Dacia sold by Volvo dealers here in Sweden), but still hard if you have no backer and are the new kid of the block.
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