deaphen
Posts: 1090
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:57 am

I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:17 pm

Ok so a small story, a few weeks ago i was spotting in AMS, like i usually do on the weekends, i limit myself to the plaza because having no transport, its the most easily accesible, i normally eat my saturday lunches there while smelling the nice smell of jet fuel.

So anyways, the other day, this MD11 was pushing back for departure, and i noticed a small door/flap open on the left forward side of the fuselage, not thinking much of it, i carried on looking the the beautiful machine.

They pushed back, started engines, and started taxiing with that door/flap open. It was at that point that i felt that maybe something was wrong, why was that little door open! It really seemed odd!

I watched her taxi by, all along with that flap open, and i seriously contemplated calling someone to check whether that door was supposed to be open or whether someone had forgot it. There was a big conflict in my head, because if you logically think about it, if something like a door or a flap had been left open, it would surely show somewhere in the flight deck!

After alot of pondering, and after dialling (but not pressing call) for the airport authorities number, it left, and i didnt do anything.

For a number of reasons, i dont know jack about the procedure for the MD11, if i had called it would have caused alot of panic and unnecessary cost and delay for the airline, etc, etc.

I am just sharing this because i have never before felt that something was "wrong"! Its hard to explain, but then i came home and checked my earlier photographs of KL MD11's leaving, and infact all of them have this door/flap open! Here are a few pics to enlighten you on what the hell im talking about!

Have you ever experienced anything of the sort? Spotters can help avert a few accidents, but i feel me calling the authorities would have been downright wrong, what do you think?

Regards
Nitin

The Plane:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e213/deaphen/IMG_0135hmm.jpg
The Flap:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e213/deaphen/IMG_0135.jpg

Oh and can someone tell me what this flap is used for?
I want every single airport and airplane in India to be on A.net!
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7795
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:18 pm

Pressurization door......Normal position for on the ground...and not the first time this question has been asked.

[Edited 2008-12-12 08:22:56]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
deaphen
Posts: 1090
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:57 am

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:21 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Pressurization door......

Ah... thanks!
I want every single airport and airplane in India to be on A.net!
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7795
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:28 pm

The DC-10 design is a little different, but in the same location. Aircraft designers put the valve in different locations and I don't know why Douglas choose there. Most I've seen are on the aft pressure bulkhead or in the wheel well.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
deaphen
Posts: 1090
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:57 am

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:30 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
Most I've seen are on the aft pressure bulkhead or in the wheel well.

I know this question belongs to tech ops, but can this valve be opened inflight?

Regards
Nitin
I want every single airport and airplane in India to be on A.net!
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:48 pm



Quoting Deaphen (Reply 4):
I know this question belongs to tech ops, but can this valve be opened inflight?

Its called an outflow valve, it is open on the ground because the pressure inside and outside the fuselage are the same. After takeoff it will be closed to allow the pressure in the fuselage to build up as the outside pressure drops during cruise it will open and close to maintain the correct pressure in the fuselage.
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7795
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:02 pm



Quoting Deaphen (Reply 4):
but can this valve be opened inflight?

It regulates in flight (cracks open) to maintain proper cabin pressure. What is fun to do... if your sinuses can take it... is to pressurize on the ground, then hit the dump switch.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:15 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
It regulates in flight (cracks open) to maintain proper cabin pressure. What is fun to do... if your sinuses can take it... is to pressurize on the ground, then hit the dump switch.

It is more fun doing this during flight  duck 


BTW, you are not the only one gotten paranoid of this door. I heard of a story about an MD11F where the tower informed the crew that there is still a cargo door open... it took a couple of minutes until they figured out that he meant the outflow valve Big grin

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:30 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
The DC-10 design is a little different, but in the same location. Aircraft designers put the valve in different locations and I don't know why Douglas choose there. Most I've seen are on the aft pressure bulkhead or in the wheel well.
Could you tell me what aircraft have the outflow valve in the aft pressure bulkhead and wheel well?

[Edited 2008-12-12 10:54:28]
 
deaphen
Posts: 1090
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:57 am

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:45 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 7):
BTW, you are not the only one gotten paranoid of this door. I heard of a story about an MD11F where the tower informed the crew that there is still a cargo door open... it took a couple of minutes until they figured out that he meant the outflow valve

Yes, it really does look rather large when u see it infront of you, i had dialed the Schiphol emergency number and was going to press "dial". Glad i didnt!
I want every single airport and airplane in India to be on A.net!
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:52 pm



Quoting Deaphen (Reply 9):
Yes, it really does look rather large when u see it infront of you, i had dialed the Schiphol emergency number and was going to press "dial". Glad i didnt!

Yeah indeed glad you didn't. The one of the MD11 is apparently pretty big and you are not the only and first one who was wondering what this actually is.
If you stand right in front of that valve you can look inside the airplane a bit. I should take a picture of it one day  Wink

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:30 am

The Outflow valve....modulates to control pressurization.This is a single gate type,similiar to the B732.The B757 & B737NGs have Dual gates travelling opposite directions.
Its mainly aft on the B757/737/A320s.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2820
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:23 am



Quoting 474218 (Reply 8):
Could you tell me what aircraft have the outflow valve in the aft pressure bulkhead and wheel well?

The Embraer 145 has them in the aft bulkhead and the 170 has them in the wheel well.
DMI
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:13 pm



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 12):
The Embraer 145 has them in the aft bulkhead and the 170 has them in the wheel well.

Thanks, never been around either of those. A couple more questions:

1. Does the Embraer have a flat aft bulkhead?

2. How does the 170 keep the wheel well door from opening when the valve is open in flight?

3. Since the areas around outflow valves are corrosion prone how does Embraer repair these areas?
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:45 pm



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 12):
170 has them in the wheel well.

Interesting.any details on this type with pics.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
typhaerion
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:27 pm

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:12 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 13):
2. How does the 170 keep the wheel well door from opening when the valve is open in flight?

Since the wheel well is not sealed, as shown in the below pictures (737 style), it is essentially outside the aircraft pressure-wise. There would not be an issue with it pressure differential opening the gear door in flight.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Paul Kanagie
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gabriel Widyna


The rest I cant help you with, I am afraid.

[Edited 2008-12-13 13:15:47]
For some, the sky is the limit. For us, it is only the beginning... -- Jack Hunt
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2820
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:09 am

The 145 does not have a flat bulkhead. It's concave.

As for the rest, I just fly them. I'm not sure.
DMI
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1057
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:30 am

Don't feel bad even pilots have moments of ignorance. I remember one pilot who called in who was following a DC-9 who was having an issue with the horizontal stabilizer with the left side up and the right side down. Guess he didn't know the 9 too well.
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2820
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:37 am



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 17):
Don't feel bad even pilots have moments of ignorance. I remember one pilot who called in who was following a DC-9 who was having an issue with the horizontal stabilizer with the left side up and the right side down. Guess he didn't know the 9 too well.

HA.

Yeah I can fully understand. The outflow valves were part of the "this is where they are, this is what they do. You can't really do much about them so don't worry about it" portions of training. I really don't even know if you can see them from the wheel well while preflighting. I've never looked. I gotta say I do like the old school approach of working through the "how's" along with the "why's" rather than just "don't worry about it". My understanding is that some airlines aren't even learning operatinging limitations like oil pressure. It's just "green is good, yellow is something to worry about, red is bad".
DMI
 
soon7x7
Posts: 2267
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 10:51 am

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:06 pm

Don't feel bad...sometimes rampers miss things...I was at JFK, Delta terminal, watching an L-1011 during pushback, I noticed the underwing refueling door was still hanging open...(it's pretty large,bout 3.5 feet wide by 18 inches deep)...Wing walkers were not evident. After the plane pushed back and I noticed this...I looked around the gate area I was in and realized no one else was around...I did notice a gentleman outside on the ramp ,down on the ground walking towards me as I was inside up on a higher level. I tried to get his attention by jumping up and down like a monkey in heat!...but to no avail...I looked at the windows to determine how thick they were, if this guy would hear me pounding on the glass to attract his attention...Glass looked like it was inch thick or so...so I pounded and pounded...he noticed me pointing to the plane...He immedietely turned, looked and noticed the opened door...on his hand held radio, he stopped the pushback before they diconnected the towbar and they sent out a baggage conveyor and ran a MX up the conveyor to close the hatch. Don't know if it would have affected anything had it not been caught however if you do see something and it can be corrected...WHY NOT?

I recently had a shot of a MD/80 blasting out of LGA, upon inspection of the photo, I noticed the rampers headset service door was unlatched...guess it happens more than we think.
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7795
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:24 am

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 12):
The Embraer 145 has them in the aft bulkhead and the 170 has them in the wheel well.

They have the +/- pressure relief valves on the aft pressure bulkhead as well....

Quoting 474218 (Reply 13):
1. Does the Embraer have a flat aft bulkhead?

2. How does the 170 keep the wheel well door from opening when the valve is open in flight?

3. Since the areas around outflow valves are corrosion prone how does Embraer repair these areas?

1).. No.. it's dome shaped like most all are
2).. The door is attached to the main gear. The gear is locked up, the door is closed
3).. Areas around the outflow valves are NOT corrosion prone.

[Edited 2008-12-15 18:45:19]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
GRZ-AIR
Posts: 540
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 3:02 am

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:46 am

Q: How do you know a refueling, intercom, groundpower etc.. panel has been left open?
A: It's missing.  Wink
When I joined A.net it was still free, haha ;).
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:46 pm



Quoting GRZ-AIR (Reply 21):

Q: How do you know a refueling, intercom, groundpower etc.. panel has been left open?
A: It's missing.

Not on a B737,aerodynamically it will move to flush position in flight  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
soon7x7
Posts: 2267
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 10:51 am

RE: I Got Paranoid While Spotting! (KL MD-11)

Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:05 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 22):

The designers take into account that hatches are periodically not entirelly secured so their installation takes into consideration slipstream direction. Their do exists events where larger more permanent type access covers were left opened for some reason and are not part of the normal turnaround chain of events like, intercom and GPU door covers, and remained unsecured...only to find the thing missing upon landing. It's scary to see what airport workers come back with sometimes after performing runway sweeps...

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BoeingGuy and 16 guests