boeingdotcom
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Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:30 am

I was thinking, airlines that use 3 man crew are now replacing with 2 man crew. With FedEx Express replacing B727 with B757, dumping the Flight Engineer is a waste isn't it? Qn.1- Can the flight engineer fly? Qn.2- Can they be trained in the B757 simulator and comes out with a captain/first officer for B757? Qn.3- Is the Flight Engineer being fired as B727 is being replaced with B757?
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Gemuser
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:50 am

It depends on what jurisdiction you are talking about. As I understand it FE in the USA are already pilots, so conversion shouldn't be a problem. In most of the rest of the world they are not pilots but are qualified ground engineers, so most of them would be absorbed back into that side of the operations.

QF is due to retire its last FE crewed aircraft (B743) tomorrow 31/12/2008 (if in fact it hasn't already happened). Its FEs have a contract guaranteeing them employment until a date in 2010. I assume the company will pay out the balance of the contract or offer them a job in other areas of the company.

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EMBQA
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:57 am

Quoting Boeingdotcom (Thread starter):
Qn.1- Can the flight engineer fly? Qn.2- Can they be trained in the B757 simulator and comes out with a captain/first officer for B757? Qn.3- Is the Flight Engineer being fired as B727 is being replaced with B757?

Yes..... Nearly all FE's today are pilots.....The days of PFE's are long over (but a few still remain) Someone correct if I'm wrong, but FEDX doesn't hire PFE's. All FE's are rated ATP pilots, so a DC-10 FE is just waiting for a slot to open on the right seat

[Edited 2008-12-29 21:04:26]
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andz
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:46 am



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 2):
All FE's are rated ATP pilots, so a DC-10 FE is just waiting for a slot to open on the right seat

How do they stay current if they are not actually flying?
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jhooper
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:06 am

Yes, if they're qualified.
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HAL
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:30 pm



Quoting Andz (Reply 3):
How do they stay current if they are not actually flying?

Obviously, they're not current as pilots in any of the airline's planes. If their FE position is eliminated (and they have a pilot's license as well as FE license) they go through training just as any pilot new to the position would. By the time they are done - a month or so later - the are qualified on the aircraft and just need IOE (actual flying with a check airman) to become current.

As some said above, most FE's are also pilots. There are a few left around the world that are PFE's (Professonal Flight Engineers) that are FE's only; they don't have pilot's licenses. But they have pretty much all retired by now.

HAL
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bobnwa
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:48 pm

In the late 60's NWA had PFE's (professional flight engineers) that went out on strike. To this day they are still officially out on strike as NWA hired pilots to be their flight engineers and replaced the PFE's. I doubt they are still walking the picket line, but that is a true story.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:59 pm

In the U.S. (and possibly elsewhere) I think some captains and first officers downgraded to flight engineer when they reached age 60 if they wanted to continue working as the flight engineer position isn't (or wasn't then, not sure what the current rule is) subject to the FAA's age 60 retirement rule to pilots. I vaguely recall reading an article quite a few years ago about a flight engineer flying for a major U.S. carrier who was over 70.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:07 pm



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):

I'm pretty sure the FAA just bumped that up to 65 this past summer....
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Viscount724
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:28 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 8):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):


I'm pretty sure the FAA just bumped that up to 65 this past summer....

There are still some restrictions. If not mistaken, on international routes at least one pilot must be under 60.
 
pilotpip
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:06 am

Most FEs at FedEx and UPS are already over 60 and many 65, I've seen a couple that were well into their 70s.
DMI
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:01 am



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 10):



Most FEs at FedEx and UPS are already over 60 and many 65, I've seen a couple that were well into their 70s.

whats the Age limit in this case.
Out here its 60 with many frequent & detailed medicals.
regds
MEL
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pilotpip
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:59 am

Mel,

There isn't one for flight engineers. It's 65 in the front seats. I don't know the specifics. All I know is that those old farts cost me an extra 5 years where I'm at before I can move up.
DMI
 
Hirnie
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:46 pm

I only know how LH did it the late 80's and begining 90's. All FEs were PFE's. When LH decided to phase out the Fleets with a three man flightdeck (begining with B727, then DC10, then B742 and as last B742F) all FEs got the chance to make some kind of interview and a check if they have the ability to become a pilot. Those who passed the checks became pilots and were instructed and educated like normal begining trainees.The others kept on flying as FEs until the last B742F went out of service with LH-Cargo.Most of the FEs retired before the end of the B742, so there were only a few left to be employed elswhere.
I don't know how FEDEX and others, especially in the US handle this problem.


Happy New Year
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:43 pm



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 12):
All I know is that those old farts cost me an extra 5 years where I'm at before I can move up.

"smile when you say that partner" (john wayne)

 crying 

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 2):
All FE's are rated ATP pilots, so a DC-10 FE is just waiting for a slot to open on the right seat

That's correct

Quoting Andz (Reply 3):
How do they stay current if they are not actually flying?

They don't. It doesn't matter. When you get a front seat award you will have plenty of sim time before you ever get back in the cockpit and fly. A lot of guys have done it but probably the biggest and most difficult leap is from 727 F/E to MD-11 F/O. A lot of younger guys have already flown some glass somewhere before so that helps otherwise it's a big jump. If you came from the back of the DC-10 at least the systems are the same (for the most part) so you can spend more time on the FMS stuff.
 
pilotpip
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:03 pm

Cosmic,

How has the 65 rule affected you guys? How many are being displaced and how long will it last as there aren't many DC-10s that haven't been converted and the 727s are going away?
DMI
 
stratosphere
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:17 pm

Don't know if has affected Cosmic as he is pretty senior I think. But a lot of the younger guys at FedEx are not happy about the 65 change add to that the bad economy and lower demand right now FedEx will wind up parking the DC-10's The 757's are going to eventually replace the 727's and they have parked some A310's. All of which has caused a pilot surplus. Right now the company has cut their flying down quite a bit in order to avoid furloughs.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:39 am

It's all one big snowball. You really can't complain about the age 60 change (that's another arguement) and the DC-10 was going anyway but combine all that with the economy and there you have it. Then you consider that when the 777 comes on the scene it will be 2 crews on every leg! Yes I know it's been pushed back some. Fedex has always reacted strongly to the market both pos & neg. Thanks for the poast Pilotpip & Stratosphere
 
pilotpip
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captai

Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:18 am

Cosmic,

I jumpseat on you guys all the time because I'm based in IND. Got to learn a lot about the HKG stuff and it amazes me how while you guys make so much more than us regional pukes, the problems are still there. I haven't been able to talk talk to many purple tailers since my furlough but I'll be hitching a ride to work again in a couple weeks since I was recalled. Happy New Year!
DMI
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:59 am

Congrats, You're welcome anytime on the J/S. I flew thu CAN a couple of weks ago to the new hub. It's brand new and going to be neat, only the cab ride is about 40 min to the hotel.
Always remember "you can please all the people some of the time and some....."
Happy New Year, CC
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:03 pm



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 12):
There isn't one for flight engineers. It's 65 in the front seats.

Interesting.
Out here its stringent & more severe & frequent medicals above 60.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
pilotpip
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:39 pm

That's supposedly in the works at the FAA. However it's moving a the speed of government bureaucracy so I fully expect to see nothing change. When it does, they'll probably cry that they're being discriminated against again.
DMI
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:53 pm

They have already mandated 2 line checks per year, as opposed to the reg. 1, and they can't be over 6 mo apart so you can actually see 3 in one yr.
 
vc10
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RE: Can Flight Engineer Be First Officer Or Captain?

Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:25 pm

British Airways had a spare pilot training course that they did not require, so they offered the places to F/E within the company, who among other requirements had to be young enough.

Most passed, and then went on to become pilots on the B737and B757 at least initially and eventually became Captains.Sadly there was on fatal accident during the course.

If you look at the following web site you can see one of them in his former occupation. This individual went onto B737, ending up so I understand as a training Captain on that aircraft [wind on about 25% to see the individual]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjcBMY-kaGs

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