a380900
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Could Concorde Turn At Full Speed?

Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:48 pm

Could the Concorde turn at full speed? Was it using normal control surfaces or other things? What was the maximum bank angle, what radius would that translate into over the grounds in NM? Thanks.
 
Bellerophon
Posts: 522
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 10:12 am

RE: Could Concorde Turn At Full Speed?

Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:22 pm

A380900

...Could the Concorde turn at full speed?

Yes.


..Was it using normal control surfaces...

Yes.


...or other things?...

What sort of “other things” did you have in mind?


...What was the maximum bank angle...

30°, but rarely required or used, 20° would have been more usual.


...What radius would that translate into over the grounds...

If you actually meant over the grounds, then that would depend on the wind. In still air:

• At 20° bank, turn radius 52 nm.

• At 25° bank, turn radius 41 nm.

• At 30° bank, turn radius 33 nm.


Regards

Bellerophon
 
metroliner
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RE: Could Concorde Turn At Full Speed?

Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:29 pm

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 1):
• At 20° bank, turn radius 52 nm.

• At 25° bank, turn radius 41 nm.

• At 30° bank, turn radius 33 nm

Wow, only? I heard the Blackbird, which flies some 50% faster (granted   ) takes Utah to turn 180!

[Edited 2009-01-25 07:30:16]
Set the controls for the heart of the Sun
 
zanl188
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RE: Could Concorde Turn At Full Speed?

Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:51 pm



Quoting Metroliner (Reply 2):
Wow, only? I heard the Blackbird, which flies some 50% faster (granted ) takes Utah to turn 180!

I bet those figures are for a 1g turn. I suspect a Concorde at full speed would produce considerably greater Gs to make those radii. To reduce the Gs to acceptable levels they would either have to widen the turn or reduce the speed....
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SP90
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RE: Could Concorde Turn At Full Speed?

Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:45 pm



Quoting A380900 (Thread starter):
other things

Like thrust vectoring? Did the Concorde even have that?
 
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Moose135
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RE: Could Concorde Turn At Full Speed?

Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:02 pm



Quoting Metroliner (Reply 2):
Wow, only? I heard the Blackbird, which flies some 50% faster (granted ) takes Utah to turn 180!

Handy turn calculator here: http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html

Using 1,350 mph for Concorde cruise speed, it calculates turn diameter (for 30° bank) of 69.8nm, which is in line with the numbers Bellerophon posted. Using 2,100 mph for the SR-71, results in a turn diameter of nearly 170nm for 30° bank.

Remember that in calculating turn radius/diameter, the square of the speed is used, so increasing speed by 50% results in an increase of 125%.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Could Concorde Turn At Full Speed?

Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:02 pm



Quoting SP90 (Reply 4):

Like thrust vectoring? Did the Concorde even have that?

Not really, except thrust reversers. Although that technically is thrust vectoring, it's not what anybody means when they say an aircraft uses thrust vectoring.

Any multi-engine aircraft has the possibility for differential thrust, but I'm not aware of any commercial aircraft that uses that as normal procedure.

Tom.
 
David L
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RE: Could Concorde Turn At Full Speed?

Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:14 pm



Quoting SP90 (Reply 4):
Quoting A380900 (Thread starter):
other things

Like thrust vectoring? Did the Concorde even have that?

No, nor reaction control jets.  Smile
 
FredT
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RE: Could Concorde Turn At Full Speed?

Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:46 pm



Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):
I bet those figures are for a 1g turn. I suspect a Concorde at full speed would produce considerably greater Gs to make those radii. To reduce the Gs to acceptable levels they would either have to widen the turn or reduce the speed....

A level 1 G turn will have a significant radius indeed...  Smile
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RaginMav
Posts: 335
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RE: Could Concorde Turn At Full Speed?

Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:16 pm



Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):


Quoting Metroliner (Reply 2):
Wow, only? I heard the Blackbird, which flies some 50% faster (granted ) takes Utah to turn 180!

I bet those figures are for a 1g turn. I suspect a Concorde at full speed would produce considerably greater Gs to make those radii. To reduce the Gs to acceptable levels they would either have to widen the turn or reduce the speed....

 alert 

'G's in a constant altitude turn are a function of bank angle, irrespective of speed (as long as the speed is not zero, of course  Wink)

Quoting FredT (Reply 8):
A level 1 G turn will have a significant radius indeed...

 bigthumbsup 
 
EMBQA
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RE: Could Concorde Turn At Full Speed?

Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:21 pm



Quoting A380900 (Thread starter):
Could the Concorde turn at full speed?

Sure... why not...? The SR71 could and that traveled 3-4x' faster.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Bellerophon
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RE: Could Concorde Turn At Full Speed?

Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:23 am

ZANL 188

...I bet those figures are for a 1g turn...

Actually, as FredT implied  Wink technically there is no such thing as a 1g turn.

And, as RaginMav correctly stated, for any aircraft, in a level turn, the g loading is only related to the angle of bank and is completely independent of the airspeed.


...I suspect a Concorde at full speed would produce considerably greater Gs to make those radii...

Here are the figures, judge for yourself.

• At 20° bank, turn radius 52 nm, 1.06g.

• At 25° bank, turn radius 41 nm, 1.10g.

• At 30° bank, turn radius 33 nm, 1.15g.


...To reduce the Gs to acceptable levels they would either have to widen the turn or reduce the speed...

Neither was necessary, as I think the above figures demonstrate.


Best Regards

Bellerophon
 
AustrianZRH
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:55 pm

RE: Could Concorde Turn At Full Speed?

Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:42 am



Quoting FredT (Reply 8):
A level 1 G turn will have a significant radius indeed... Smile

I'd say, it would be about 6,375 km, give or take 15 km for altitude and latitude  Smile.
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
RaginMav
Posts: 335
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 5:22 am

RE: Could Concorde Turn At Full Speed?

Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:19 pm

Here's another interesting thought: to make a standard rate (1.5 degrees per second) turn at the previously sighted 1350 mph, the Concord would need a 58 degree bank angle!

To turn at 3 degrees per second, the bank angle would be 73 degrees! (3.4 Gs)

Maybe that's why there are maximum holding speeds...!  eyepopping 
 
GDB
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RE: Could Concorde Turn At Full Speed?

Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:51 pm

Well Bellerphron has said it all.

I did experience two turns at speed, at 30W, basically turning back to LHR over the Atlantic, both were planned.
One was on 11 Sept 2001, of all days, where I and 98 other BA Concorde staff on G-BOAF were 'pax' for the first of a series of flights to prepare the aircraft to re-enter service after the AF accident.

Really, it was to re-train cabin crew, try new menus, also aid the ground staff and facilities in general for the return to service and we used the Concorde lounge for good measure!
In every respect, it was just like a normal LHR-JFK service, just with that turn back.
(With what was unfolding in NY on our way back, just as well).
Later flights a few weeks later, included one that had more of my colleagues as 'pax', but going to JFK, then back, all in a day!
A memorable day for me then for more than one reason, but that 'other' reason essentially caused it's retirement to be brought forward a few years.

The second one was on the last ever BA Concorde full post maintenance air-test, in Aug 2003, on G-BOAE.
Just a few of us on board here, no cabin crew, certainly the turn felt much more pronounced this time, whether it actually was I don't know.
At 30W again.

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