khobar
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Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:40 am

Of all the airliners through the ages, what's the quirkiest quirk of any of them? For example, the Trident had an offset nose gear that closed sideways, and main gear that rotated 90 degrees to fit the main wells. But that's a minor design "quirk" if it even qualifies.

Although not an airliner, the nose strut of the B-58 was retracted in a quirky way to clear that big ole pod it carried in the belly. But again, that's a design "quirk".

Are there any operational quirks and, if so, what are they? For example, the DC-8 had the capability of thrust reversers activating in the air, but I've seen TU-154's and some other aircraft with TR's deployed before touchdown, so I don't know if that's a quirk. Even if it is, I'd guess it's optional - they don't have to be deployed prior to touchdown (or do they in some cases?).

Any other mandatory operational quirks?
 
ex52tech
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:47 pm



Quoting Khobar (Thread starter):
Are there any operational quirks and, if so, what are they? For example, the DC-8 had the capability of thrust reversers activating in the air, but I've seen TU-154's and some other aircraft with TR's deployed before touchdown, so I don't know if that's a quirk. Even if it is, I'd guess it's optional - they don't have to be deployed prior to touchdown (or do the

My understanding on an airliner being able to deploy reversers in the air is due to the time requirements for a given airplane to get from a given altitude to an altitude in which pressurization is not necessary. It would be necessary for those airplanes to use their reversers as speed brakes in order to get down in time without "red-lining" the airplane.

There is a more technical explination, that I'm sure someone will get you, but that is my understanding as to why. Hope that helps.
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Blackbird
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:05 pm

The DC-8 was originally designed with a pair of split-brakes on the lower section of the fuselage behind the wing as well as thrust-reversers -- However, the brakes turned out to be almost useless, and the reversers turned out more effective than imagined so they never re-designed the brakes and removed them.


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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:20 pm

I tend to stumble across plenty of videos and pictures of the IL-76 landing nose gear first. Is this just a coincidence of bad pilots being caught on camera or is this actually a common practice?
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Max Q
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:07 am

Perhaps not that quirky but the 727 had brakes on the nosewheel on some versions.
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ex52tech
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:39 am



Quoting Max Q (Reply 4):
Perhaps not that quirky but the 727 had brakes on the nosewheel on some versions.

I only saw them on the 721's that I worked on, and only those that were dedicated to some routes with short runways. They were different.
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Scooter01
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:01 am

I always thought it was pretty cool, -when standing at the end of a runway, a prop airliner
taxied into position and held with it's tail towards me, -all the noise from it's engines disappeared!


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Viscount724
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:02 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 2):
The DC-8 was originally designed with a pair of split-brakes on the lower section of the fuselage behind the wing as well as thrust-reversers -- However, the brakes turned out to be almost useless, and the reversers turned out more effective than imagined so they never re-designed the brakes and removed them.

As I recall, the DC-8 also lacks flight spoilers so reverse thrust helps do the job spoilers would normally do (DC-8 spoilers can only be used after touchdown.) AC lost an almost brand new DC-8-63 at YYZ in 1970 when the ground spoilers were inadvertently deployed before touchdown. All 109 aboard were killed.

I'm not sure how frequently reverse thrust was used in the air, probably not very often. I have heard that it caused a fair amount of noise and vibration in the cabin. I flew on many DC-8s of almost every model and can't recall noticing anything like that.

I believe the Ilyushin 62 can also use reverse thrust in the air (it only has reversers on the two outboard engines if memory correct).
 
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:24 am

Going back a few decades, I always thought it strange that AA required that the passenger door on their DC-3s be on the right side. They had the same requirement for the Convair 240 for which they were the launch customer. The 340 and 440 had the door on the more usual left side. (Photo below at BOS 1957).

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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:35 am



Quoting Khobar (Thread starter):
Of all the airliners through the ages, what's the quirkiest quirk of any of them?

I nominate the JATO-equipped 727s flown by Mexicana:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c81/aloges/JATO.jpg


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ex52tech
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:11 am

I thought it was strange that the B-52-G/H had only spoilers and no ailerons.
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Max Q
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:49 am

Our 727-200's in Air Mike all had nosewheel brakes, I saw a few in domestic service as well although they were deactivated.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:20 am

Though not specifically externally visible.
But on the B732 MWW,The only filter bowl needing a strapwrench to open was the return filter of the system B.seems odd when all the other filter bowls on the type everywhere were wrench driven.
Commonility was defeated here.

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rwessel
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:50 am



Quoting Ex52tech (Reply 10):
I thought it was strange that the B-52-G/H had only spoilers and no ailerons.

As does the Mitsubishi Mu-2 and, I think, a few other bizjets.
 
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cpd
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:10 pm



Quoting Khobar (Thread starter):
Of all the airliners through the ages, what's the quirkiest quirk of any of them? For example, the Trident had an offset nose gear that closed sideways, and main gear that rotated 90 degrees to fit the main wells. But that's a minor design "quirk" if it even qualifies.

Concorde, engine number 4 speed on take-off.

A quite unusual quirk (but a fairly simple fix) used to get around a problem I assume nobody imagined when the plane was designed.
 
ex52tech
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:38 pm



Quoting Rwessel (Reply 13):
As does the Mitsubishi Mu-2 and, I think, a few other bizjets.

That is what I was looking for, which other ones. Wasn't thinking when I posted, and anyway the B-52 is not an airliner.  guilty 
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2H4
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:49 pm

The use of drag chutes in airline ops is was a bit quirky, too:


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khobar
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:01 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 9):
I nominate the JATO-equipped 727s flown by Mexicana:

Oh that is brilliant! Thank you.

Some really interesting quirks - thanks very much.
 
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:20 am

On the MD80 they were not able to mount the compass above the glareshield due to excessive deviation error.

Solution, mount it behind the First Officers head ! then mount two mirrors above the glareshield and tell Pilots to swivel them so by looking into one then reflecting that image into the other you could 'at a glance' tell your compass heading.

Not that we look at the mag compass very much but still !
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HAWK21M
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:45 am



Quoting Max Q (Reply 18):

On the MD80 they were not able to mount the compass above the glareshield due to excessive deviation error.

Amazing.what caused it.
regds
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Shhpanked
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:04 am

I suppose the tandem gear on Air India's A320s could qualify.


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Starlionblue
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:44 am



Quoting Ex52tech (Reply 10):
I thought it was strange that the B-52-G/H had only spoilers and no ailerons.

IIRC the A310 only has inboard ailerons, using spoilers for extra control at low speeds. A little bit quirky at least.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 18):
On the MD80 they were not able to mount the compass above the glareshield due to excessive deviation error.

Solution, mount it behind the First Officers head ! then mount two mirrors above the glareshield and tell Pilots to swivel them so by looking into one then reflecting that image into the other you could 'at a glance' tell your compass heading.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
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XaraB
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:33 pm



Quoting Cpd (Reply 14):
Concorde, engine number 4 speed on take-off.

Please excuse my ignorance, but what was all this about?
In order not to hijack the thread, a link to another previous one (which I seem unable to find...  Sad) is more than appreciated!
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Viscount724
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:43 am

Two other quirky things came to mind:

The Tu-114's contra-rotating props (as on the Tu-95 Bear bomber on which it was based).


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The "Speedpak" for the L749 Constellation that attached to the bottom of the fuselage for inreased cargo capacity.


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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:24 pm

Is the DC-9 the only airliner that can reverse from the gate without needing pushback?
 
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:36 pm



Quoting Vasu (Reply 24):
Is the DC-9 the only airliner that can reverse from the gate without needing pushback?

Nope, I did it in an AA F100 a few times. I'd venture to guess, that anything with the tail mounted engines could do it.

Speaking of the F100, how about what I consider the goofy looking spoilers? Or the speed break on the BAe146?


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HAWK21M
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:47 pm



Quoting Vasu (Reply 24):

Is the DC-9 the only airliner that can reverse from the gate without needing pushback?

Most empennage mounted engined aircraft can perform powerbacks.
regds
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Blackbird
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:24 pm

Starlionblue,

The Convair 880 and Convair 990 also used the same means for roll-control.


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2H4
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:43 pm

I thought of another one. The MD-90 has movable control surfaces on the engine pylons. They are there to assist in recovery from potential stall by providing additional nose-down authority:





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twal1011727
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:58 pm



Quoting Max Q (Reply 18):
Solution, mount it behind the First Officers head ! then mount two mirrors above the glareshield and tell Pilots to swivel them so by looking into one then reflecting that image into the other you could 'at a glance' tell your compass heading.

Nah...thats the pretty woman (or guy...gender not-withstanding) walking down the aisle mirror.

Quoting Vasu (Reply 24):
Is the DC-9 the only airliner that can reverse from the gate without needing pushback?

Continental did a powerback with a B737-200 at MLB one time, so most A/C with reversers can do it.

If you have Beta thrust a prop A/C can do it too.

KD
 
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Scooter01
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:30 pm



Quoting TWAL1011727 (Reply 29):
If you have Beta thrust a prop A/C can do it too.

You mean like this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUdVRpjHqvA


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Jetlagged
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:36 pm



Quoting Khobar (Thread starter):
For example, the Trident had an offset nose gear that closed sideways, and main gear that rotated 90 degrees to fit the main wells. But that's a minor design "quirk" if it even qualifies.

To add to its list of quirks, the Trident 3 had a fourth booster engine in the tail for takeoffs.

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It had the ability to use thrust reverse in flight to increase decent rate. The idea was to maximise the cruise phase to reduce short haul flight times (it also had a very high cruising speed).

Internally it had a unique rolling map display for navigation.

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Viscount724
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:42 am



Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 25):
Or the speed brake on the BAe146?

And the Fokker F28, F70, F100.


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Viscount724
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:54 am



Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 30):
Quoting TWAL1011727 (Reply 29):
If you have Beta thrust a prop A/C can do it too.

You mean like this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUdVR...jHqvA

Or these (2nd one a Canadian Air Force DHC-5 Buffalo).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRcbJvy_blo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwDkhHNRQiE&feature=related
 
SP90
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:57 am

I recall reading about a NW DC-9 that actually went supersonic briefly and then went on to fly revenue service for many years.
 
ex52tech
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:13 am



Quoting SP90 (Reply 34):
I recall reading about a NW DC-9 that actually went supersonic briefly and then went on to fly revenue service for many years.

I worked for them, and never heard of that one, but you never know, could have happened.

I know that it did happen with a Whale though, and they damaged the aircraft.
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Max Q
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:34 am

We did powerbacks on the 727, DC9, and Md80 regularly at Continental.

Never thought it was a good idea though, great way to suck in the Fod that is always all over our ramps..
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tdscanuck
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:30 am



Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 25):
Nope, I did it in an AA F100 a few times. I'd venture to guess, that anything with the tail mounted engines could do it.

Anything with thrust reversers *can* do it. It's a bad idea on anything with low-mounted engines, and many a/c with tail-mounted engines don't bother to certify themselves for it even if they're technically capable of it.

Tom./
 
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cpd
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:08 am

Quoting XaraB (Reply 22):

Please excuse my ignorance, but what was all this about?
In order not to hijack the thread, a link to another previous one (which I seem unable to find... Sad) is more than appreciated!

The speed on engine no.4 was reduced to 88% N1 by a limiter. I believe airflow off the wing caused excessive vibration on this engine, so until a particular speed, the engine ran at reduced power. (Then it went up to full power). The rudder was trimmed to compensate for this. There were some other quirks to do with this and the engines too.

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 31):
It had the ability to use thrust reverse in flight to increase decent rate. The idea was to maximise the cruise phase to reduce short haul flight times (it also had a very high cruising speed).

Internally it had a unique rolling map display for navigation.

Not so unique - it was to go on Concorde 002 as well (Decca Omnitrack moving map display). It never did get used as far as I knew.

Someone mentioned in flight thrust reversing, Concorde did it as well on 2 engines only. Hence, it could descend very quickly if needed. I think it was only ever used if the plane was required to descend more quickly than originally planned (eq, ATC requesting that the plane descend more quickly).

Concorde 202 had some other quirks as well, such as its emergency power generation. It had a Sundstrand hydrazine mono-propellant powered system.

This didn't go on production aircraft. It would have been quite unacceptable to have on board a substance like hydrazine.

[Edited 2009-01-30 22:25:44]

[Edited 2009-01-30 22:27:56]
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:41 am



Quoting TWAL1011727 (Reply 29):
Continental did a powerback with a B737-200 at MLB one time, so most A/C with reversers can do it.

The Pilot needs to remember to stop a powerback on a B732 with Fwd thrust & not the Brakes.
regds
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ex52tech
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:38 pm



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 37):
and many a/c with tail-mounted engines don't bother to certify themselves for it even if they're technically capable of it.

Which ones were these. Unless you are talking about VC-10s, Tridents, Caravelle, or F-28s.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 36):
We did powerbacks on the 727, DC9, and Md80 regularly at Continental.

We did all the time, just had to remember not to touch the brakes, especially if it was a 722 light on fuel, you could tip an MD-80 pretty easily too.
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Mastropiero
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:55 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 39):

The Pilot needs to remember to stop a powerback on a B732 with Fwd thrust & not the Brakes.
regds
MEL

I am sure there is a very logical explanation for this, and once you tell me what it is I know I´ll feel really stupid but right now I can´t figure it out....  ashamed   ashamed 
 
2H4
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:09 pm



Quoting Mastropiero (Reply 41):
I am sure there is a very logical explanation for this, and once you tell me what it is I know I´ll feel really stupid but right now I can´t figure it out...

If you touch the brakes while the aircraft is rolling backward, there's a good chance the nosewheel will come off the ground and the aircraft will come to rest on its tail.

2H4
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Mastropiero
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:38 pm

I see, thanks a lot. This leads me to another quick question - sorry for hijacking the thread - : do airliners have brakes on the nose landing gear too, or only on the main landing gears?
 
2H4
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:56 pm



Quoting Mastropiero (Reply 43):
do airliners have brakes on the nose landing gear too, or only on the main landing gears?

Certain versions of the Boeing 727 had nosewheel brakes. Maybe a few other models, too. Today, though, virtually no airliner has them.

2H4
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Mastropiero
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:25 pm

Thanks, 2H4.  smile 
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:37 am



Quoting Ex52tech (Reply 40):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 37):
and many a/c with tail-mounted engines don't bother to certify themselves for it even if they're technically capable of it.

Which ones were these. Unless you are talking about VC-10s, Tridents, Caravelle, or F-28s.

I was under the impression that none of the CRJ's or tail-mounted E-jets were certified for powerbacks. Can somebody confirm?

Tom.
 
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:57 am



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 9):
I nominate the JATO-equipped 727s flown by Mexicana:

And to think I still got to fly on them, but only after they removed their rocket packs.

Quoting TWAL1011727 (Reply 29):
If you have Beta thrust a prop A/C can do it too.

I thought the Beta setting was just for putting the props on discing, and reverse thrust was moving beyond the Beta point. Or is Beta=reverse thrust?
 
2H4
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:02 am



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 47):
And to think I still got to fly on them, but only after they removed their rocket packs.

Oh, to have only heard them from inside the cabin.....

2H4
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nz2
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RE: Quirkiest Quirk About Airliners?

Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:14 am



Quoting Vasu (Reply 24):
Is the DC-9 the only airliner that can reverse from the gate without needing pushback?

Here in Auckland NZL, Qantas and AA 707's used to do self reverse regularly, used a lot of gas however, hence the move to tugs. Would be the same for most aircraft as stated by others.

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