tiktokjake
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Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:28 pm

Hia
I just thought this needed a mention. Why do the A321/A330/A340-600 all have smaller doors than the rest of the doors on that model. On the A340-600/A330 the little door is located at door 3. On the A321 it is at door 3 + 2 R ONLY
WHy??
 
JRadier
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:32 pm

Because they don't need a larger door. Those doors are for emergency only and the current doors provide enough capacity. A larger door would only add weight.
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northstardc4m
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:33 pm

Save costs mostly. If you don't need the full size door for evacuation why pay for the heavier door, much less the fuel and maintenance costs involved.

Also on the A330 Door 3 is optional to the larger size, most charter airlines have the full size door at 3.

Many planes have door size options... the L1011 had a door size option for Door 4 at the very back, could be made fullsize if the airline wanted to put in high density seating. The 757 and 767 both have multiple door configurations to allow different seating densities and configurations. The A300 could have a small or full size door at Door 3...

The list goes on... it's just an option.
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ikramerica
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:48 pm



Quoting JRadier (Reply 1):
Because they don't need a larger door. Those doors are for emergency only and the current doors provide enough capacity. A larger door would only add weight.

Yep. They are not full use doors, and have a lower pax/min rating than full use doors for the aircraft type, but they are there strictly to allow for increased max evacuation capacity in these stretched designs. They are usually placed so that the meet the safety criteria of "maximum number of seats between exits".

The 739ER has a similar small door for the same reason, and it is only activated (otherwise plugged) when capacity is above 189.
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AA737-823
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:11 pm

Boeing does this on the 752 and 764 as well. The door 3L/R on 752s configured WITHOUT overwing exits (and on all 753s) is a smaller, hinged at the bottom, type door. The door aft of the wings on 764s is smaller as well.
 
BMI727
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:38 pm



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 4):
Boeing does this on the 752 and 764 as well. The door 3L/R on 752s configured WITHOUT overwing exits (and on all 753s) is a smaller, hinged at the bottom, type door. The door aft of the wings on 764s is smaller as well.

I think that DL's ex TW 757s have the six full sized doors and two smaller ones instead of the more common six full size and 4 overwing exits.
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gigneil
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:43 pm

The 737-900ER also has a smaller overwing door.

NS
 
BMI727
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:51 pm



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 6):
The 737-900ER also has a smaller overwing door.

That is one of the differences between the -900 and -900ER. Before the -900ER came out, the -900s had the same capacity as a -800. Some airlines (CO is one) have chosen to deactivate those doors on their aircraft. You'd never know that it is there on the inside, but the door is visible from the outside and I think can be activated if CO or a future operator wants to bump up the capacity.
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ceo@afg
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:45 pm

It's an option on some of the Airbus models. The A330s flown by MYT now Thomas Cook have high capacity all economy seating, and features full size doors in both door 3L/R.


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flyibaby
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:01 pm

Sprit's A321's have the larger doors as well.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:12 pm

Quoting CEO@AFG (Reply 8):
It's an option on some of the Airbus models. The A330s flown by MYT now Thomas Cook have high capacity all economy seating, and features full size doors in both door 3L/R.

Also Air Transat.


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On the other hand, LX with about 140 fewer seats on their 332s than Air Transat (only 198 seats on LX 3-class 332s, fewer seats than their A321s) have the small #3 door.


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[Edited 2009-02-13 14:24:41]
 
khobar
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:22 pm

I've seen DC-8's that had almost as many exits as windows. Okay, maybe not that many, but a lot. For example:



There are seven exits on the one side.
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Viscount724
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:54 pm



Quoting Khobar (Reply 11):
I've seen DC-8's that had almost as many exits as windows.

The 60-series DC-8s had a variety of optional galley, lavatory, door and emergency exit locations.
 
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TZTriStar500
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:59 pm



Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 2):
the L1011 had a door size option for Door 4 at the very back, could be made fullsize if the airline wanted to put in high density seating.

Not entirely true. The full size aft (P5) door on the standard body L-1011s was only for British ordered/registered aircraft to meet British regulations. No other operators had this full size door. The -500 has this door full size as it does not have a door aft of the wing (P4) like the standard body aircraft. The one exception here is the -500 aircraft operated by ATA that had an extra aft of the wing door (P4A) installed by DL STC to meet current regulations and seating density requirements.
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Tristarsteve
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:28 pm



Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 13):
Not entirely true. The full size aft (P5) door on the standard body L-1011s was only for British ordered/registered aircraft to meet British regulations.

But the British L1011 could seat 399 pax. (And the charter ones did). In Sweden, L1011 with the small Nbr 4 doors could only seat about 360 pax.
Could you seat 399 pax in a L1011 with small Nbr 4 doors anywhere else?
 
474218
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:15 pm



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 14):
But the British L1011 could seat 399 pax. (And the charter ones did). In Sweden, L1011 with the small Nbr 4 doors could only seat about 360 pax.
Could you seat 399 pax in a L1011 with small Nbr 4 doors anywhere else

The first L-1011's with eight (8) Type A doors were the two Court Lines aircraft. They were certified and had seats for 400 passengers. Subsequently all the British Airways and British Air Tours L-1011 were also fitted with the eight (8) Type A doors. I am not sure if BA ever actually fit 400 seats in any of there L-1011's.

The L-1011's with six (6) Type A doors and two (2) Type 1 doors were limited to 362 passengers.

As a note: 400 passengers in an L-1011 required 10 abreast seating (3-4-3) with a 30" seat pitch. Not the most comfortable seating arrangement.
 
LY744
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:52 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 15):
The first L-1011's with eight (8) Type A doors were the two Court Lines aircraft. They were certified and had seats for 400 passengers. Subsequently all the British Airways and British Air Tours L-1011 were also fitted with the eight (8) Type A doors. I am not sure if BA ever actually fit 400 seats in any of there L-1011's.

The L-1011's with six (6) Type A doors and two (2) Type 1 doors were limited to 362 passengers.

How do they come up with these numbers? According to the FAR25.8xx's, a Type A is good for up to 110 pax, and a Type I for 45. So shouldn't the L-1011 with the small #4 have a max capacity of 375?


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474218
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:22 pm



Quoting LY744 (Reply 16):
How do they come up with these numbers? According to the FAR25.8xx's, a Type A is good for up to 110 pax, and a Type I for 45. So shouldn't the L-1011 with the small #4 have a max capacity of 375?

You read the T.C.D.S.

With six (6) Type A doors and two (2) Type 1 doors, Lockheed demonstrated 345 passengers with the 362 being established by analysis. The 400 was established by demonstration.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:24 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 15):
I am not sure if BA ever actually fit 400 seats in any of there L-1011's.

Oh yes. BA had a charter outfit called British Airtours, and later Caledonian. These aircraft had 399 seats. Many of the BA Tristars flew with these outfits and had these seats, but not when on BA service.
 
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TZTriStar500
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:47 pm

My point here was that I believe the British CAA required the larger doors regardless of maximum capacity since the BA examples had them and I believe BA never intended to operate them in a high density layout though they did later in charter ops. Carl (474218) can correct me if I'm wrong here.
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Viscount724
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:55 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 15):
I am not sure if BA ever actually fit 400 seats in any of there L-1011's.

BA's L1011-1s used on intra-Europe routes had tight 10-abreast (3-4-3) charter-type seating in economy class, but also had a first class cabin originally. Not sure what their total seating was. At the time they started operating those, many L1011 (and DC-10) operators, especially those in North America, stil had the oriiginal 8-abreast (2-4-2) seating. Quite a contrast to go from one of those to one of the BA 10-abreast L1011s.
 
474218
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:26 pm



Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 19):
My point here was that I believe the British CAA required the larger doors regardless of maximum capacity since the BA examples had them and I believe BA never intended to operate them in a high density layout though they did later in charter ops. Carl (474218) can correct me if I'm wrong here.

I don't know. Everything I have at home states that the Type A doors in the L&R 4 position, in lieu of the Type 1 doors, was an option. I will try and get a definitive answer next week.
 
CRJ900
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:53 pm



Quoting Khobar (Reply 11):
There are seven exits on the one side.

How come United required so many exits on their DC-8?

I flew on a Scanair DC-8-63 with 252 seats, and that had "only" 6 exits per side.

Side note: The DC-8-61/63 was one great aircraft, love the looong fuselage. Pity they don't fly pax anymore...

Does anyone have the link to the FAR overview on how many pax each door type is certified for in case of emergency? Type A = 110 pax etc...
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Viscount724
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:46 pm



Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 22):
How come United required so many exits on their DC-8?

UA's early non-advanced 727-200s also had an extra emergency exist on both sides just in front of the wing. I can't recall seeing that exit on any other 727s. If memory correct there was some indication that it would be needed for certain higher-density seating configurations, but it it wasn't. Visible in following photos.


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UA later deactivated and sealed up those exits. You can see where it was in the following photo due to the wider gap between the windows on both sides of the window in that exit door.


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The exit didn't exist on the later 727-200Adv's.


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LY744
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RE: Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors

Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:07 pm



Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 22):
Does anyone have the link to the FAR overview on how many pax each door type is certified for in case of emergency? Type A = 110 pax etc...

http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_25-807.html


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