sxmarbury33
Posts: 405
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 5:41 am

Final Vector

Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:48 pm

What is the textbook definition of final vector. I was looking over the feeds at JFK. I assume all traffic gets funneled into final vector and then sent to tower, is that correct?

When it's very slow do they ever eliminate final vector ie. no ground, twr just says taxi ramp my freq?
 
timz
Posts: 6163
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Final Vector

Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:07 am



Quoting Sxmarbury33 (Thread starter):
What is the textbook definition of final vector.

I doubt that there is one. What are you using the term to mean?
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Final Vector

Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:09 am

"Final Vector"? Not exactly certain of that phrase, but the p[hrase "vectors to final or vectors to the final approach course" is what the controller will tell the crew as the controller is required to give the reason for the vector.

On midnight shifts at most locations, when traffic is slow you likely will have an approach controller working in the TRACON and a tower controller working all the positions in the tower. In that scenario the local controller will in almost every situation will tell the crew remain this frequency, taxi to the ramp.

Should all control positions be combined in the tower (pretty much not allowed anymore) then the approach control frequency the arrival aircraft is issued by the center or adjacent facility would most likely be the local control frequency. When that occurs you'd only use the one frequency for the entire arrival, landing, and taxi to the ramp.

Hope that answered your question!
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
sxmarbury33
Posts: 405
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 5:41 am

RE: Final Vector

Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:38 am

Interesting but diddn't really awnser my question. With all this talk of liveatc.net in the news I decided to take a look at the site. Hadn't been in years. Under the JFK listening options are Carmen Approach sector, Rober Approach sector and, JFK approach final vector

http://www.liveatc.net/feedindex.php?type=all#kjfk

I was just wondering if this frequency will talk to ALL inbound traffic and if not who would they be talking too?

Also, does this frequency get essentially shut down (not used) during very dead times?
 
timz
Posts: 6163
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Final Vector

Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:55 am

When JFK is busy, with arrivals on 22L and 13L, no one approach controller is talking to all the arrivals-- in the past, at least, they even had two tower frequencies for... the two arrival streams I think, but possibly one tower freq for all arrivals and another for the 13R departures.

[Edited 2009-02-26 16:56:43]
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Final Vector

Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:24 am



Quoting Sxmarbury33 (Reply 3):
Interesting but diddn't really awnser my question.

Sorry pal however, I think I'm getting smarter on your question after seeing the last post you made. It isn't the final vector it is probably going to be the final controller!

The final controller is receiving aircraft from the arrival or feeder controllers to vector them to the final approach course and clearing them for the approach from a downwind, base leg, and straight-in.

Hope that is what your question was based upon, if not I'm just flat lost again!!!  Smile
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Final Vector

Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:30 pm

Maybe he means "what is the last vector before you retire called'?  Cool
 
atct
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

RE: Final Vector

Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:38 am



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 6):
"what is the last vector before you retire called'?

Getting lowered 6 feet below?

J/k

To elaborate on what my esteemed collegue IAHFLYR, The "Final" is an imaginary line extending from the approach end of the runway. The center usually being what is called a "Localizer" which is a radio beam pilot home into using instrumentation to fly right down the extended centerline of the runway.

When Centers give aircraft to busy approach facilities, it is usually first handed off to a controller we call the "Feeder" or "Arrival" controllers. These are the guys usually bringing em down from roughly 10-12,000ft to about 4-6,000 ft and fly them parallel to the runway on "downwind." At this point they radar handoff (exchanging who actually is responsible for the aircraft) to the "Final Controller." The final controller vectors aircraft and is the one you hear clearing an aircraft for an approach. They are responsible in most cases for seperation of the aircraft in and around the extended centerline, or the Final.

Regarding Frequencies, we never shut down a frequency at a facility that operates 24/7. At my facility, tommorow night, I'll will be working the midnight shift. While my mid shift partner works the phones, airport lighting panels etc., I will have all the frequencies combined to one position in the tower cab. A position being just somewhere to plug in if you get what I mean. When I key up, I'll be transmitting over all my frequencies, though the pilot may only be on one. They do a similiar thing at TRACONS (such as IAHFLYR's facility) except its in the radar room instead of the tower cab. A Controller has all the frequencies dialed up at one scope and works everything. Now at SDF, MEM etc., they dont do this as their work-load increases at night with the hubs of UPS/FDX respectively.

Hope this helps, if not, elaborate a little more and I'll see if I can help.

ATCT
Tower Controller
Trikes are for kids!
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Final Vector

Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:43 pm



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 6):
Maybe he means "what is the last vector before you retire called'?

I'll let ya know real soon, but for now my thinking is it is called "this vector is for controller amusement"!  checkeredflag 
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Final Vector

Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:56 pm



Quoting ATCT (Reply 7):
Getting lowered 6 feet below?

I've always thought when the app. control would say "contact final controller on 123.45" , "God I hope he's not my FINAL controller"! LOL!Something from the Twilight Zone.

I haven't flown IAH in a long while, are you guys still doing the no speeed limit on dept.? I thought MEM was going to be next to expedite our night time depts but it hasn't happened. Know anything?
 
atct
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

RE: Final Vector

Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:39 pm

IAHFLYR could verify but I think the only restriction is the 250 below 10,000 here at IAH. I rarely hear someone slap 230kts on someone.

ATCT
Trikes are for kids!
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Final Vector

Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:20 pm



Quoting Atct (Reply 10):
I think the only restriction is the 250 below 10,000 here at IAH.

There was a time a few years back when they were doing no speed restriction deptartures as a test and I thought it was going to a possibility at other places to get jets up and away fast.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Final Vector

Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:22 am



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 9):
I haven't flown IAH in a long while, are you guys still doing the no speeed limit on dept.?

Seems to me you should come see us.

No, the true fun is over on departures. It was terminated the Tuesday after the Super Bowl was in town.....so I guess now we've been doing 250 KIAS below 10,000' MSL for about 5 years now. I've told some guys to give me your very best 250 KIAS up to ten, then 330 KIAS or greater out of ten......amazing tailwinds those guys find almost every time!  Smile

Doing 250 KIAS on departure is the biggest waste if time, needless vectors once the conga line is going all over the sky, very inefficiency use of NG's and those who climb much better at higher speeds, and is completely no fun.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Final Vector

Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:25 am



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 9):
I thought MEM was going to be next to expedite our night time depts but it hasn't happened. Know anything?

I've heard rumblings afloat that some operators want to bring it back at select places but no specifics.....probably the single best idea and procedure ever used by the FAA.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Final Vector

Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:30 pm

Now that we're doing NADP2 we can get up and outatown real fast especially the MD-11. For as crowded and busy as they are the London ATC guys do use the highspeed dept often even though if you read the "fine print" it's 250 to 10!
 
sxmarbury33
Posts: 405
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 5:41 am

RE: Final Vector

Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:35 pm

Thanks for the replys. It sounds like the final vector controller gives them a vector or two, clears them for whatever approach they are executing and hands them to tower.

Quoting Timz (Reply 4):
When JFK is busy, with arrivals on 22L and 13L, no one approach controller is talking to all the arrivals-- in the past, at least, they even had two tower frequencies for... the two arrival streams I think, but possibly one tower freq for all arrivals and another for the 13R departures.

Are there actually two "final vector" approach controlers. It is only showing one frequency of 132.4. Also during dead times would this handoff be skipped and given by either the CARMN or ROBER approach controler?

Also on the whole speed restrictions, how unsafe would it be to eliminate 250 below 10k for departures out of airports such as DFW. There is a lot of clear airspace outside the terminal area, and "no speed" departures could be restricted to certain SIDS or directions. How much fuel would this potentially save?
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Final Vector

Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:49 am



Quoting Sxmarbury33 (Reply 15):
how unsafe would it be to eliminate 250 below 10k for departures out of airports such as DFW

Worked quite well from the Houston Terminal airspace which has similar traffic numbers compared to those from the Dallas/Ft. Worth Terminal airspace, so it would work well there also, IMHO!!

Fuel savings, that is for the operators to figure out.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2821
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: Final Vector

Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:50 am

I'm pretty sure the Canadians allow whatever speed you want on departure. I remember seeing that in my Jepps somewhere. We usually let the FMS do it so the speeds are always 250 below 10.
DMI
 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:21 am

RE: Final Vector

Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:11 am

Take a look at an ancient Sectional Chart and you will see something described as a "Military Climb Corridor" depicted near military bases. This allowed departing aircraft to hit Bat-out-of-Hell speeds as long as they held to the limits of the corridor.

This was Restricted airspace that "laddered" up as the distance from the base increased, allowing transiting aircraft to fly under the MCC in normal conditions.

Seems like the same sort corridor could be established for civilian airports today.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Final Vector

Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:03 am



Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 18):
Seems like the same sort corridor could be established for civilian airports today

IMHO no real need for a corridor as mentioned. Class B airspace takes care of that and those would be the only places I imagine (airports with Class B airspace) the flight standards people would think of authorizing speed for departures above 250 KIAS.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Final Vector

Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:12 am

After seeing what NADP2 has done for us I would only imagine that high speed would be even better. Like I said for as busy as London is, they WANT you to get the heck out of Dodge so high speed works. Go fast young man and retract those landing lights!!

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