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nitepilot79
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Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:36 am

Is the GE 90-115B turbofan still the most powerful airliner engine? How do the RR and Pratt and Whitney models compare?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:52 am

Yes. but a good bit.

I believe the most powerful commercial Pratt's and Rollers are in the mid-90k range.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:02 am

And they will be for some time, as the A350-1000 is not spec'd out for engines more powerful than the current crop of mid-90s.

It will be Y3, if it ever comes, that may have more powerful engines.
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:47 am

I think GE will provide the engines for the Y3 as they have experience building the biggest jet engines in the world.
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:58 am



Quoting 2707200X (Reply 3):
I think GE will provide the engines for the Y3 as they have experience building the biggest jet engines in the world.

Don't bet the farm.
While the GE-90-115 is generally a good engine, they're losing gearboxes left and right. At one point, there was discussion (here on a.net, anyway) that AF was in jeopardy of losing their ETOPS rating with the bird, due to the number of inflight shutdowns being too high.

Now, don't get me wrong... I don't think the engine/aircraft are dangerous. But, there's nothing preventing Rolls from stepping in and offering a competitor. At least with Airbus... I think Boeing gave GE an exclusivity contract for engines above 100k.

I don't expect Pratt to show up at the party, just as they didn't even propose a development for the 777-3ER.
 
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:21 pm



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):

It will be Y3, if it ever comes, that may have more powerful engines.

It might, It might not. I doubt there will ever be a change from twin to single engine, so thrust requirement will always be based on a twin requirement.

That said, my opinion is that the Y-3, if Boeing ever designed one to replace the -300ER, will focus on lighter airframe, more efficient engine and better aerodynamics. My guess is that the MTOW will hover at around 770klbs (773ER), with better fuel economics and lighter airframe to carry more payload.

Cheers,
PP
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:07 pm



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 4):
Don't bet the farm.
While the GE-90-115 is generally a good engine, they're losing gearboxes left and right. At one point, there was discussion (here on a.net, anyway) that AF was in jeopardy of losing their ETOPS rating with the bird, due to the number of inflight shutdowns being too high.

I don't think they are losing them left and right. Yes, they are requiring more maintenance at the moment, but these can changed out on wing before they become too much of a liability. GE is working hard to maintain the current fleet and to implement fixes in the near future.

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OldAeroGuy
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:46 pm



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 4):
While the GE-90-115 is generally a good engine, they're losing gearboxes left and right. At one point, there was discussion (here on a.net, anyway) that AF was in jeopardy of losing their ETOPS rating with the bird, due to the number of inflight shutdowns being too high.

The latest report I've seen was through the end of 3Q '08.

Based on an average for the prior year, the GE90-115B total (all phases of flight) IFSD rate was .005 per 1000 engine hours.

That rate is 25% of the rate required for 180/207 min ETOPS and 50% of the rate required for ETOPS beyond 180/207 min.

While the gear box issue should to be corrected, ETOPS for the 777/GE90-115B is not at risk.
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:55 am



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 4):
While the GE-90-115 is generally a good engine, they're losing gearboxes left and right.

What are the snags?
regds
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:38 am



Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 7):
While the gear box issue should to be corrected, ETOPS for the 777/GE90-115B is not at risk.

Good!

Quoting CFMTurboFan (Reply 6):
I don't think they are losing them left and right. Yes, they are requiring more maintenance at the moment, but these can changed out on wing before they become too much of a liability. GE is working hard to maintain the current fleet and to implement fixes in the near future.

Pardon the hyperbole, but they are happening too frequently. I believe Air France has lost two, Singapore has lost at least one, Air Canada dropped one in here a few weeks ago...
And, they sometimes require engine replacement. The Air Canada bird C-FRAM had to have a new engine. At least, that's what I was told; bummer, to, because it took a very long time to truck one up from Seattle on the Al-Can highway!
 
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:43 pm



Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 5):
I doubt there will ever be a change from twin to single engine

Under FAR 121, single-engine aircraft are not allowed, so there will always be a requirement for a twin engine aircraft.
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:22 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 4):
But, there's nothing preventing Rolls from stepping in and offering a competitor.

Agreed. When RR began testing the current Trent 800 in '94, it reliably achieved 107 klb  Wow!
This was a long time before RR developed the 8104 and almost a decade before the GE90-115 came on the scene.


Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
Pardon the hyperbole, but they are happening too frequently. I believe Air France has lost two, Singapore has lost at least one, Air Canada dropped one in here a few weeks ago...

I seem to recall a ME carrier, either Emirates or Etihad also having issues with the GE90-115 when it entered service, resulting in multiple engine changes.

Regards

[Edited 2009-03-25 09:26:54]
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Stitch
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:28 pm



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 4):
I think Boeing gave GE an exclusivity contract for engines above 100k.

It's actually based on MTOW and the baseline is around 300t, which is pretty much only the 77F, the 77L and the 77W.



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
Pardon the hyperbole, but they are happening too frequently.

Not on a statistical basis, which is what matters. Considering how many GE90s a day are performing missions without incidents in SQ's, AF's and AC's fleet. And then consider how many more are performing missions without incidents in the rest of the world's fleet.

There are some 400 GE90-11xB engines in operation every day and yet there have been but a handful of IFSs over a period of months.
 
lowbank
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:22 pm

The Trent 8104 achieved 114lb of thrust on test, the nearest building to the test engine was shaking with the vibrations and the roof leaked for ages after. Shame an engine was not built for production after.
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:50 am



Quoting Imiakhtar (Reply 11):
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
Pardon the hyperbole, but they are happening too frequently. I believe Air France has lost two, Singapore has lost at least one, Air Canada dropped one in here a few weeks ago...

I seem to recall a ME carrier, either Emirates or Etihad also having issues with the GE90-115 when it entered service, resulting in multiple engine changes.

Qatar Airways had one fail last September 7 enroute from IAD to DOH, resulting in a diversion to Gander and an engine change. Following summary from the Transport Canada occurrence reporting site.

The Qatar Airways Boeing 777-300ER aircraft was operating as QTR052 from Washington, DC to Doha, Qatar at FL370. At 02:25 NDT, when approximately 175nm west of Gander, the crew declared a Mayday due to an engine failure (GE90-115B); they requested and were cleared descent to FL200 and a diversion to Gander. Clearance to dump fuel approximately 30nm N of Gander was requested and received. The aircraft landed without further incident at 03:16 NDT. The engine, serial number unknown, had failed in cruise flight. During an unsuccessful relight attempt, EGT limitations were exceeded. Subsequent inspection revealed tiny particles in the tailpipe and debris on chip detectors. The engine was removed and will be returned to the manufacturer for further examination.
 
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:24 am



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):

Qatar Airways had one fail last September 7 enroute from IAD to DOH, resulting in a diversion to Gander and an engine change. Following summary from the Transport Canada occurrence reporting site.

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that one. A quick google as per my previous post revealed it was EY experiencing problems:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/171207/

Regards
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:46 am



Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 7):
The latest report I've seen was through the end of 3Q '08.

Based on an average for the prior year, the GE90-115B total (all phases of flight) IFSD rate was .005 per 1000 engine hours.

That rate is 25% of the rate required for 180/207 min ETOPS and 50% of the rate required for ETOPS beyond 180/207 min.

While the gear box issue should to be corrected, ETOPS for the 777/GE90-115B is not at risk.

This was a balanced and accurate view.

Current rate is 0.004/1000 hrs. The post is accurate that ETOPS is not at risk. It isn't appropriate to comment on individual issues, as that information isn't public, but suffice to say that the issues referred to are being managed very aggressively; they are well in hand, and the fleet statistics reflect that.

And yes the -115B is still the most powerful by a long way!

Cheers
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:14 pm



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 10):

Under FAR 121, single-engine aircraft are not allowed, so there will always be a requirement for a twin engine aircraft.

FAR 121 is a rule and rules can be changed.

However, I agree that this rule is unlikely to change. Until an engine can be designed that essentially never fails (even if a large, frozen turkey flies into it), you'll always need at least two.

Back on topic, I will remind everyone that RR has had their own 777 issues of late, have they not?
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:29 am

The GE-90-115 will 'rule the roost' in terms of thrust for a long time.

With the developments in CFRP, aerodynamics, etc., I really doubt a larger engine will be required before 2020.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 4):
I don't expect Pratt to show up at the party, just as they didn't even propose a development for the 777-3ER.

Nitpick: Actually, Pratt did propose an engine. They went off to their *usually* loyal launch customers (Japan Airlines, ANA, Korean air, UAL, Northwest, etc.) After the PW4098 debacle... every single one of them said 'no thank you.' Without a launch customer, the proposal died on the UG terminals.

At that point, RR was developing a counter to the GE-90-115. They, and their customers, were LIVID that GE was granted an exclusive. However, time and performance heals all wounds and I cannot recall a single RR customer who was considering the RR engine for the 77W who didn't eventually buy the GE-90-115.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
There are some 400 GE90-11xB engines in operation every day and yet there have been but a handful of IFSs over a period of months.

 checkmark  Its something to pay attention to, but nothing to endanger the GE-90's reputation or ETOPS certification.

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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:51 pm



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 4):
I don't expect Pratt to show up at the party, just as they didn't even propose a development for the 777-3ER.

Right, RR did propose and I believe developed and Engine for the 77L 77W, but GE got the contract because they invested in the cost of the development of these aircraft and shared the financial burden with Boeing.

Pratt and Whitney is the big loser on the 777. They have the least amount of airframes with their engines in service on the 777's.

The only major Airlines I can think of that originally ordered 777's with Pratts are:

UA
JL
ANA
KE
and Asiana.

The most 777-200ER's and 777-300's I believe are RR, followed by GE-90's. (I think). Actually, I don't think there are any GE-90's on ANY 777-300 A versions.

Of course, ALL 77L and 77W have GE-90's.

As to the original poster's question:

The GE-90-115B is the most powerful, as I believe it has been clocked all the way up to 127,000lbs of thrust, but only certified up to 115,000lbs.

In all honesty, anything can be built if one has the resources and money to do so. I expect that fan diameters may increase a bit, and thrust to go up, especially as the 777 is tweaked for better performance and perhaps a 777 NG variant.

Twins are the future for most aircraft....and I think that is what everyone would like, even on an A380 sized aircraft, but right now, it's not available. Doesn't mean it can't be done.

I do have a question though: I know many airlines at first really wanted engine options on the 77L and 77W, especially AA throwing a fit about it.

I know that Boeing produces the nacelles for these engines, but say RR or Pratt wanted to get in on the deal, could they not produce the nacelles themselves and airlines buy the planes without engines and fairings and have RR or PW install them, or perhaps if they are already installed with GE-90's, they could sell those engines to current GE-90 fleet owners and replace them with RR or PW?

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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:22 pm



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 18):
At that point, RR was developing a counter to the GE-90-115. They, and their customers, were LIVID that GE was granted an exclusive. However, time and performance heals all wounds and I cannot recall a single RR customer who was considering the RR engine for the 77W who didn't eventually buy the GE-90-115.

American Airlines comes to mind, but they are about it.

Then again, they wanted a lighter 777X for TATL ops and were willing to sacrifice range to get it, so even if the 777-200LR had RR power, they likely still would not have bought it.
 
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:30 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
Then again, they wanted a lighter 777X for TATL ops and were willing to sacrifice range to get it, so even if the 777-200LR had RR power, they likely still would not have bought it.

I think they were interested in the 773ER, which was the reason for the hissy fit, because they "claimed" that if they didn't get RR Trents as an option, they would threaten Boeing by going to the A346 for their needs. I don't think they were looking at the LR model at the time. And with their current routes, they don't need it, unless they want to start BOM service from ORD, or SYD/AKL/DXB/BOM/HKG service from DFW. They also might want the LR for MIA-JNB, but then again, it would still require at stop in CPT because of JNB altitude.

UAL
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:35 am



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 19):
I know that Boeing produces the nacelles for these engines

It was Boeing at the time they were designed...now it's Spirit Aerosystems (formerly Boeing Wichita).

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 19):
but say RR or Pratt wanted to get in on the deal, could they not produce the nacelles themselves and airlines buy the planes without engines and fairings and have RR or PW install them, or perhaps if they are already installed with GE-90's, they could sell those engines to current GE-90 fleet owners and replace them with RR or PW?

There's no way to buy the airplane without the engines/nacelles...it wouldn't conform to the type certificate, so there's no way for Boeing to give it an airworthiness certificate. Although I suppose that the airline could take delivery at PAE without that, then roll it over to Goodrich and do the mod there, then get the airworthiness cert themselves, but I'm not sure why Boeing would do that.

If you bought the full-up airplane, there's nothing that inherently prevents RR or PW from offering an STC to change the engines. However, the certification burden for that STC would be huge, and you'd have to have a customer that *reeeeeeallly* wanted the other engine to get them to pay for that.

Tom.
 
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:12 am



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 22):
f you bought the full-up airplane, there's nothing that inherently prevents RR or PW from offering an STC to change the engines. However, the certification burden for that STC would be huge, and you'd have to have a customer that *reeeeeeallly* wanted the other engine to get them to pay for that.

Right, but you would only need one certification for the aircraft, and the airlines who wanted different engines could share that burden, correct? Or does a certification have to be issued for EACH airplane and not simply the airframe and engine configuration for similar types?

UAL
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:17 am



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 23):
Right, but you would only need one certification for the aircraft, and the airlines who wanted different engines could share that burden, correct? Or does a certification have to be issued for EACH airplane and not simply the airframe and engine configuration for similar types?

The STC is a one-time thing...it would apply to all aircraft that met whatever the configuration requirements were of the STC. So yes, if a bunch of airlines wanted to share it they could do that. Each airplane would also need its own airworthiness certification but, provided the STC was certified, that's not any meainingful incremental cost. Airworthiness is preserved by the incorporation of certified modifications. The big cost is in certifying the STC.

Tom.
 
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:17 am



Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
American Airlines comes to mind, but they are about it.

There I disagree. Pratt was shocked how many RR customers protested to Boeing.

SQ, BA, AA, and a few others (who made less noise). There were more airlines, at the time, interested in the RR product than the GE. But then it became an exclusive... and as I posted before, I'm not aware of any 777 customer, besides AA, who was looking at the higher thrust RR engine who hasn't ordered the GE. Then again, I'm not sure AA would have ordered the RR engine due to their financial situation.

What would have happened with EK if RR had been offered on the 77W? DL with the 77L?

But the business case for a sole supplier, with the predicted *initial* 77W sales drove the case to a partner vs. multiple suppliers. Then the range was extended and we have a whole different story on the 777. So this is just a.net pub talk.  spit 

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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:44 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
American Airlines comes to mind, but they are about it.



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 25):
There I disagree. Pratt was shocked how many RR customers protested to Boeing.

Sorry. I thought the comment was "RR customers who did not eventually buy the GE90-11xB". My mistake.

You are very much correct that many existing 777 Pratt and RR customers protested. CX was said to be dead-set against a 777X without RR power, though they are now a large 77W customer.

And yes, McKerney's gamble as president of GE Aviation Engines to convince Boeing to give them a sole-source contract sure paid out. It turned a financial boat-anchor (the original GE90 series of engines) into a huge financial success.  thumbsup 
 
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:40 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
Sorry. I thought the comment was "RR customers who did not eventually buy the GE90-11xB". My mistake.

Maybe I misread your post.  spin 

Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
And yes, McKerney's gamble as president of GE Aviation Engines to convince Boeing to give them a sole-source contract sure paid out. It turned a financial boat-anchor (the original GE90 series of engines) into a huge financial success.

I'm shocked at the transformation. The original GE-90 had the worst reputation on the 777 (well... until the PW4098...), but invest $1Billion and viola! Great engine.


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Stitch
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:32 pm



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 27):
I'm shocked at the transformation. The original GE-90 had the worst reputation on the 777 (well... until the PW4098...), but invest $1Billion and viola! Great engine.

Really. They spent some $2 billion on the original GE90, yet it was the slowest seller and while BA started with it, they dropped it for the Trents on future purchases. So even if GE paid $500 million to Boeing for the exclusivity deal (which is the highest figure I have heard bandied about) and spent another $500 million developing the -11xB series, as you said, they're still coming out well ahead. When they announced the win in 1999, GE hoped to secure upwards of $15 billion in sales and I'm guessing their a good bit on their way to making it.
 
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:58 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 28):
When they announced the win in 1999, GE hoped to secure upwards of $15 billion in sales and I'm guessing their a good bit on their way to making it.

Through the end of Feb '09, GE90-110B/115B sales were at least 1038 (spare engines wiil push the total higher) based on sales of:

773ER: 397
772LR: 49
777F: 73

With a unit price of around $20M, engine sales have been around $20B. In addition, since GE helped finance the 773ER/772LR/777F development, they also get a share of the revenue Boeing receives for the airframes.

Looks like GE made a good business decision.

[Edited 2009-04-01 14:05:15]
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AT
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:54 pm

I know that the LRs and 300-ERs are exclusively GE, but what is the breakdown by engine type for the remaining 777 fleet?
Can someone provide numbers for the RR/GE/PW breakdown for the 777-200s and the 777-300s.?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:34 pm



Quoting AT (Reply 30):
I know that the LRs and 300-ERs are exclusively GE, but what is the breakdown by engine type for the remaining 777 fleet?
Can someone provide numbers for the RR/GE/PW breakdown for the 777-200s and the 777-300s.?

According to Boeing orders/deliveries data:

777-200:.......RR 16, GE 9, PW 63
777-200ER:..RR 179, GE 167, PW 88
777-300:.......RR 42, GE none, PW 18
 
AT
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RE: Is The GE 90-115B Still The Most Powerful?

Sat Apr 04, 2009 6:03 pm



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 31):
According to Boeing orders/deliveries data:

777-200:.......RR 16, GE 9, PW 63
777-200ER:..RR 179, GE 167, PW 88
777-300:.......RR 42, GE none, PW 18

interesting-- for the -200A models, the PW is by far the most prevalent, but that reverses for the -200ER...

Also didn't realize there were only 60 777-300s operating! Would it be fair to say that it is now an obsolete plane in terms of new orders given that the 777-300ER is around?

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