tsra
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Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:04 am

Any Curved Dgps Appoarches?

Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:47 pm

I know the FAA was looking into curved flight path differential GPS approaches as apposed to a straight in approach. Is there any approved curved DGPS approaches out there? I am interested because an airport I fly out of could use this method. Right now the longest northern runway at this airport can not have an ILS approach because of terrain and towers.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Any Curved Dgps Appoarches?

Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:11 am



Quoting Tsra (Thread starter):
. Is there any approved curved DGPS approaches out there?

Take a look at Naverus's case study for Brisbane:
http://www.naverus.com/Case_Studies/...nd_the_Environment_in_Brisbane.htm

Tom.
 
tsra
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RE: Any Curved Dgps Appoarches?

Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:57 pm



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 1):
Tom.


Good info, Thanks Tom
 
DescendVia
Posts: 141
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RE: Any Curved Dgps Appoarches?

Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:14 pm

Quoting Tsra (Thread starter):

Actually they are not "GPS" approaches though GPS is a requirement for them. They are RNAV(RNP) approaches that require a SAAAR (Special Aircraft and Aircrew Requirement) or if its an ICAO approach an AR (Authorization Required).

Thing is that some planes can meet the low RNP requirements (Smith/GE FMCs and Pegasus (Honeywell) FMCs) yet not a lot of airlines are investing in this. IMO in a few years more and more airlines will be investing in this but it will only be airlines. GA will just stick to WAAS GPS approaches. AFAIK, there was only one (RNP) approved GA jet and it was sorta by default as it was (still is?) the Gulfstream V Honeywell FMS test plane.

I'm personally surprised that NACO/FAA actually publish these approaches and have them open to the general public and actually two (RNP) approaches that CO developed for 29 at EWR where just published by NACO as well. IMHO, its just a waste (even though I don't use NACO charts) since NO ONE is RNP approach approved and the people who are use higher quality products like Jeppesen or just have Jeppesen produce company charts.

So the long to short is..... if your airport would even get an (RNP) approach, you would not be able to fly it unless your company (if that is your case) supped up the plane(s) and made them comply w/ AC 90-101 which would more then likely not be cost effective since the number of RNP approaches you would actually do would be close to 0. Heck most airlines that (RNP) approach approved, besides AS, Air China, and QF only fly the approaches in the sim every 6 or so months.

In conclusion, its going to take many more years of the HAR to actually see these approaches common place in the states. Australia on the other hand has really embraced these approaches though, so who knows. I got a feeling if the WN (RNP) conversion is a success after 2012, or whenever, more airlines might look at this stuff with more of an open mind.

If you want to see some approaches look at: (RF= Radius-to Fix)
KLGB (RF)
KDCA (RF)
KPSP (RF)
KJFK (RF)
KEWR (RF)
KTUS (RF)
KONT
KJAC

Don't get me wrong, I really dig PBN (performance based navigation) stuff like this but unfortunately I'm also a realist  
[Edited 2009-04-08 14:33:35]
 
DescendVia
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RE: Any Curved Dgps Appoarches?

Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:16 pm



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 3):

Just to add........

Google AC 90-101, its some pretty good reading and really does not have much of the MATH crap that TERPS/Naverus use to design the approaches.
 
tsra
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RE: Any Curved Dgps Appoarches?

Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:43 pm



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 3):

More good info thanks Descend!
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Any Curved Dgps Appoarches?

Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:56 am



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 3):
since NO ONE is RNP approach approved

Define "no one"?

There are operators who have applied for RNP approval and airlines that are already flying RNAV (RNP) SAAAR approaches.

Most large airports with parallel runways that meet the criteria for simultaneous ILS approaches can't use RNAV approaches in a simultaneous operation due to the 7110.65 criteria. The separation criteria needs to ramp up quickly (good luck on that) as well as a change to the controller handbook so RNAV (GPS) or RNAV (RNP) can be flown using the same lateral and vertical track as the ILS otherwise they will not be used as DescendVia mentions.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
DescendVia
Posts: 141
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RE: Any Curved Dgps Appoarches?

Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:03 am



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 6):

Define "no one"?

That was in reference to people who would be using NACO charts and why they actually publish them for the general public.

AFAIK these airlines are (RNP) approach approved:
CO (all except for the non-NG 737s)
QF (737NG)
DL (Peg 757s)
CA (Peg 757 and A320)
NZ (737 and A320)
AS
Plus a few others I'm probably missing and my point is that all of the above use Jeppesen charts or the similar. Even the Honeywell Gulfstream V uses Jeppesen as part of the EFB in there.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 6):
change to the controller handbook so RNAV (GPS) or RNAV (RNP) can be flown using the same lateral and vertical track as the ILS otherwise

That "could" work for RNAV(GPS) approaches that have the small final approach course and I know of a few controllers that just use the ILS for vectors to final (though not legal). Other then that I mean most (RNP) approaches have to be flown in full from an IAF or IF where radar is required to join it (KGYY) taking even more time, though some straight in ones like CVG and ATL can be vectors but again, the ILS would be flown since they can do a lot more stuff with the ILS as you know/pointed out.

The WN conversion should be real interesting to see.......
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Any Curved Dgps Appoarches?

Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:29 am



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 7):
That "could" work for RNAV(GPS) approaches that have the small final approach course and I know of a few controllers that just use the ILS for vectors to final (though not legal).

Not to sound ignornant, but I'm not sure what a "small final approach course" means!

Quoting DescendVia (Reply 7):
though some straight in ones like CVG and ATL can be vectors but again

IAH has used RNAV approaches for years with CO having S, all have been vectors to final exactly like the ILS as they mirror the ILS.

Quoting DescendVia (Reply 7):
the ILS would be flown since they can do a lot more stuff with the ILS

Until the time that the ILS is out of service for some reason and then you are certainly glad to have the ability to use the RNAV's.

Back to the topic, curved RNAV (RNP) approaches are sure slick sounding however, I would bet the required criteria will run into many roadblocks.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
DescendVia
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RE: Any Curved Dgps Appoarches?

Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:32 pm



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 8):
"small final approach course"

My bad, I meant same final approach course.......
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Any Curved Dgps Appoarches?

Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:52 pm



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 9):
My bad, I meant same final approach course

I wake up confused so please don't help me along!  Smile
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
DescendVia
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:26 am

RE: Any Curved Dgps Appoarches?

Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:01 pm



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 10):

 Smile
I actually think I had a brain fart.... I swore I typed "same" and proof read "same".

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