propilot83
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FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:38 am

I know that under the Federal Air Regulation all airliners have to maintain an airspeed less than 250 knots below 10,000 ft. Is this the case also when airliners take-off and have to maintain an airspeed of no more than 250 knots until they climb over 10,000 ft? or does this FAR only apply to aircraft descending and ready to land?
 
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tb727
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:47 am

Any time below 10,000', climbing or descending. A few years ago in Houston they had no 250 knot restriction on speeds departing the Houston airports thinking it would help with traffic but they ended up scrapping the plan after a few months I think it was.
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IAHFLYR
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:37 am



Quoting Propilot83 (Thread starter):
I know that under the Federal Air Regulation all airliners have to maintain an airspeed less than 250 knots below 10,000 ft. Is this the case also when airliners take-off and have to maintain an airspeed of no more than 250 knots until they climb over 10,000 ft? or does this FAR only apply to aircraft descending and ready to land?

The 250 KIAS below 10,000' MSL applies to all aircraft with a few exceptions, not simply airliners.

Quoting Tb727 (Reply 1):
A few years ago in Houston they had no 250 knot restriction on speeds departing the Houston airports thinking it would help with traffic but they ended up scrapping the plan after a few months I think it was.

The Houston operational demonstration lasted from 1997ish IIRC, until the Tuesday after Super Bowl XXXVIII in 2004......moved alot of traffic very efficiently, safely, and expeditiously. "They" were told to stop the "No Speed Limit" when the waiver was rescinded by the FAA, it wasn't something Houston wanted to stop.  banghead 
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tpa36r
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:00 pm

IAH,

Just so i canc onfirm this.....

on departure the aircraft has to maintain 250 knots OR the clean wing speed of the aircraft above 250 correct?
 
klemmi85
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:02 pm

What exactly is this rule being made for? Because of noise reduction?
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futureualpilot
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:17 pm



Quoting TPA36R (Reply 3):
on departure the aircraft has to maintain 250 knots OR the clean wing speed of the aircraft above 250 correct?

No, its 250 below 10...period.
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BigSaabowski
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:22 pm



Quoting FutureUALpilot (Reply 5):
No, its 250 below 10...period.

No,
it's 250 knots, or the clean wing speed of the aircraft if above 250, after notifying ATC.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:45 pm



Quoting BigSaabowski (Reply 6):
it's 250 knots, or the clean wing speed of the aircraft if above 250, after notifying ATC.

Correct.
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BMI727
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:10 pm



Quoting Klemmi85 (Reply 4):
What exactly is this rule being made for? Because of noise reduction?

No, it is for traffic separation. Below 10,000 feet, there is usually a lot of traffic landing or departing, plus all of those VFR flights. Having the speed limit keeps closing speeds relatively slow, and keeps the situation from changing too quickly for ATC so they can react more easily to potential conflicts and I would think that having all planes on a level playing field makes sequencing easier.

I have heard of ATC giviing special permission to exceed 250 is some cases. I heard that they allowed a plane to fly faster due to an imminent thunderstorm. I don't know if that is strictly legal or not though.
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Mir
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:22 pm



Quoting FutureUALpilot (Reply 5):
Quoting TPA36R (Reply 3):
on departure the aircraft has to maintain 250 knots OR the clean wing speed of the aircraft above 250 correct?

No, its 250 below 10...period.

No, he's right. It's 250 or minimum clean, whichever is higher.

Sec. 91.117

Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).
(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.
(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).
(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.


Quoting Klemmi85 (Reply 4):
What exactly is this rule being made for? Because of noise reduction?

There are a lot of relatively slow VFR aircraft in the US below 10,000, and having everyone slow down helps people see and avoid each other.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
I have heard of ATC giviing special permission to exceed 250 is some cases. I heard that they allowed a plane to fly faster due to an imminent thunderstorm. I don't know if that is strictly legal or not though.

If it's an emergency situation, it's legal.

-Mir
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DescendVia
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:32 pm

As I know it only the 747 and A380 need high speed to get clean at high gross weights. Though once in a while CMS on say a 767 will approach 255 at MTOW.

There is also a waiver people have seemed to not bring up in this topic. The 250 below 10,000 is waived when your at least 12Nmiles away from U.S. shoreline. So unless otherwise stated on a chart or whatever, you can go above 250 without having to request it upon reaching the 12 mile limit.
 
DH106
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:41 pm



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10):
As I know it only the 747 and A380 need high speed to get clean at high gross weights. Though once in a while CMS on say a 767 will approach 255 at MTOW.

Not flying anymore I know, but wasn't Concorde also exempt/waivered at high weights ?
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IAHFLYR
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:58 pm



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10):
As I know it only the 747 and A380 need high speed to get clean at high gross weights. Though once in a while CMS on say a 767 will approach 255 at MTOW.

MD11's have been known to need a speed above 250 KIAS to get clean.
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klemmi85
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:05 pm



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 12):
to get clean.

What does "to get clean" mean? Flaps fully retracted?
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DescendVia
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:12 pm

Quoting Klemmi85 (Reply 13):
What does "to get clean" mean? Flaps fully retracted?

  

Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10):
767 will approach 255 at MTOW.

I was just doing some thinking....plus or minus 10 knots so were still good. I don't think the 767 CMS can get much more above 255 without taking off overweight.

[Edited 2009-04-28 08:14:17]
 
tpa36r
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:31 pm



Quoting Klemmi85 (Reply 13):

What does "to get clean" mean?

Yeah flaps/slats retracted.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:50 pm



Quoting Klemmi85 (Reply 13):
What does "to get clean" mean? Flaps fully retracted?

Clean, the opposite of dirty.  Big grin  duck 
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:58 pm



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 2):
The 250 KIAS below 10,000' MSL applies to all aircraft with a few exceptions, not simply airliners.

I got to wondering where the 250 below 10 restriction originated, and having lived in Cincinnati in my youth, I then remembered this accident:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19670309-0

PROBABLE CAUSE: "The failure of the DC-9 crew to see and avoid the Beechcraft. Contributing to this cause were physiological and environmental conditions and the excessive speed of the DC-9 which reduced visual detection capabilities under an air traffic control system which was not designed or equipped to separate a mixture of controlled and uncontrolled traffic."

Follow-up / safety actions:
The NTSB suggested some changes in the air traffic control system . Also, the Board recommended the development of a practical Collision Avoidance System (CAS).
Following this accident the FAA issued Advisory Circular 90-32 titled 'Air traffic control and general operations, radar capabilities and limitations'. Also a rule was adopted establishing that all aircraft flying below 10,000ft msl will be limited to a maximum speed of 250kts effective December 15, 1967 to provide a more realistic 'see and avoid' environment.


Now, what I can't seem to remember is exactly when the Terminal Control Area (TCA) (Today's Class B airspace) first came into being. Was it as a result of the above 1967 mid-air as one of NTSB's "suggested changes in the air traffic control system", or did the TCA come into existence as a result of the 1978 PSA mid-air at SAN, or was it some other accident?
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jgarrido
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:20 pm



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10):
So unless otherwise stated on a chart or whatever, you can go above 250 without having to request it upon reaching the 12 mile limit.

A lot of pilots forget/don't know about that part.
 
BMI727
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:11 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
If it's an emergency situation, it's legal.

The situation I heard about wasn't an emergency per se, but a large thunderstorm was about to hit as the flight was on approach and the controller let them go faster to beat it otherwise a diversion would have been likely.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:11 pm



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 17):
Now, what I can't seem to remember is exactly when the Terminal Control Area (TCA) (Today's Class B airspace) first came into being. Was it as a result of the above 1967 mid-air as one of NTSB's "suggested changes in the air traffic control system", or did the TCA come into existence as a result of the 1978 PSA mid-air at SAN, or was it some other accident?

Someone alot smarter than I will have to help with that question. I want to say TCA's were from the 1967 mid-air but really expanded to more airports after the PSA mid-air on SAN.
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IAHFLYR
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:14 pm



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19):
The situation I heard about wasn't an emergency per se, but a large thunderstorm was about to hit as the flight was on approach and the controller let them go faster to beat it otherwise a diversion would have been likely.

How do you know the controller let them exceed 250 KIAS below 10,000'?
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OPNLguy
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:31 pm



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 20):
Someone alot smarter than I will have to help with that question. I want to say TCA's were from the 1967 mid-air but really expanded to more airports after the PSA mid-air on SAN.

I think you may be right. Wasn't SAN an ARSA at the time of PSA accident?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
propilot83
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:51 pm

Thanks for all the info guys!
 
futureualpilot
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:37 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
No, he's right. It's 250 or minimum clean, whichever is higher.

You are correct, I read what he wrote incorrectly...sorry about that!
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longhauler
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:34 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
No, he's right. It's 250 or minimum clean, whichever is higher.

The FARs that you quoted do not say minimum clean, it says minimum safe. There is a difference.

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
SLUAviator
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:22 pm



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19):



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19):


Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
If it's an emergency situation, it's legal.

The situation I heard about wasn't an emergency per se, but a large thunderstorm was about to hit as the flight was on approach and the controller let them go faster to beat it otherwise a diversion would have been likely.

An air traffic controller under no circumstances can give a pilot a clearance to violate an FAR. The FARs often include the "unless authorized the administrator" statement. Administrator does not mean controller. Even in an emergency, he won't clear someone to fly 300 knots below 10,000 ft. I get instructed to fly 300 knots at 10,000 feet all the time. When cleared below 10,000 ft. I need to slow before I descend. The controller knows he can't give me a clearance to violate an FAR so he expects me to slow. He does not even tell me to maintain 250 knots cause he knows I'm doing it anyway. If he needs slower then that, he tells me.

There is a catch to the deviate from the FARs due to emergency. The FARs say the PIC may deviate from any section of part 91 to meet the needs of the emergency. The catch is the FAA has the right to agree or disagree with what constitutes 'meet the need.' If you declare an emergency they can still hit you with careless and reckless or any other FAR you violate if they feel (and more importantly think they can convict) violating that particular FAR(s) was not necessary to meet the extent of the emergency. Big grain of salt!
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timz
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:08 pm



Quoting LongHauler (Reply 25):
The FARs that you quoted do not say minimum clean, it says minimum safe.

That's what I've always wondered. Is it unsafe for a heavy to climb to 10000 ft with some flap out?
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:53 pm



Quoting Timz (Reply 27):
Is it unsafe for a heavy to climb to 10000 ft with some flap out?

I wouldn't say it was unsafe but sure is not very efficient.

Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 26):
The FARs often include the "unless authorized the administrator" statement. Administrator does not mean controller.

Would you agree that a controller can authorize a speed greater than 250 KIAS below 10,000' when an air traffic facility like Houston TRACON was given a waiver to issue speeds above 250 KIAS below 10,000" during that time of "No Speed Limit"?
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SLUAviator
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:15 pm



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 28):
Would you agree that a controller can authorize a speed greater than 250 KIAS below 10,000' when an air traffic facility like Houston TRACON was given a waiver to issue speeds above 250 KIAS below 10,000" during that time of "No Speed Limit"?

Yea. That would fall under the authorized by the administrator because the facility was given a waiver. An individual controller would not be able to do that without a waiver in place. An individual controller is never going to be given a waiver. Sadly, there is nothing like that in the US. I wish every day I could go 300 or 320 till on the ILS!
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DescendVia
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:34 pm



Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 26):
An air traffic controller under no circumstances can give a pilot a clearance to violate an FAR. The FARs often include the "unless authorized the administrator" statement. Administrator does not mean controller

I disagree..... the controller can give the speed wavier just like other controllers around the world do. If they needed to get an administrator over each time one is requested, that would defeat the purpose.

Plus going on your example, I would say the administrator has already given the blanket authority to the airplanes that have been certified to request high speed. Then all the controller does is enforce that authority once requested.

Judging by your profile, you fly into and out of the ORD tracon. So if you hear United 895 (B744 ORD-HKG) over the freq some time, notice that high speed is granted almost immediately by departure.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:35 am



Quoting Timz (Reply 27):
That's what I've always wondered. Is it unsafe for a heavy to climb to 10000 ft with some flap out?

Can't think of a reason that it would be unsafe.

It'd surely be inefficient, though, not to mention noisier, both as a result of more thrust required to offset the drag, and a lesser climb rate.

In this day and age of noise regulations, I can't imagine they'd want planes lingering at lower altitudes with higher thrust.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
timz
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:31 am



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 30):
notice that high speed is granted almost immediately by departure.

Everyone agrees that controllers routinely authorize departures to exceed 250-- the question is, how is that legal, if safety isn't a factor and the controller isn't an "administrator"?
 
SLUAviator
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:48 am



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 30):
I disagree..... the controller can give the speed wavier just like other controllers around the world do. If they needed to get an administrator over each time one is requested, that would defeat the purpose.

Plus going on your example, I would say the administrator has already given the blanket authority to the airplanes that have been certified to request high speed. Then all the controller does is enforce that authority once requested.

Judging by your profile, you fly into and out of the ORD tracon. So if you hear United 895 (B744 ORD-HKG) over the freq some time, notice that high speed is granted almost immediately by departure.

I think you are misinterpreting FAR 91.117(d): "If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed."

It does not say get a clearance to fly fast. It does not say the administrator has to give permission. Going fast is already provided for in the FAR-- if operational need dictates. No admin/controller permission required. There is no authority to enforce cause the controller does not have any. If you need to fly fast, he can't say no. Nor does he need to give his permission. Airplanes are not certified to request high speed. If they need to fly faster then 250 knots because of operational need they do it. 895 to HKG is really heavy. Its minimum flaps retracted speed that heavy is probably going to be above 250 knots-- so they fly the slowest speed they can above 250. The same airplane going to DEN will not be as heavy and will have to comply with the 250 knot restriction because operational need does not dictate it go faster.

When it says administrator, it does not mean a local facility administrator, it means the boss man. The FAA administrator. Defined in FAR Part 1.1. "Administrator means the Federal Aviation Administrator or any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned." Do you think he is going to delegate the authority to authorize a plane to fly faster then 250 kts below 10,000 to a guy at every center or approach/departure facility in the country? The answer is no, because it is man-power restrictive (making sure you have a guy there every shift of every day to do it?) and going fast is already provided for in the FAR--again, as operational need dictates.

I have heard 895 on departure at work. I've never heard a departure controller (we call it approach or departure, not TRACON) giving 895 a clearance to fly faster than 250 knots nor have I heard 895 request it. The controller knows they have to fly fast because they have no choice. You may hear the crew give the controller a heads up of what speed they have to do. In my experience I've never heard a heavy 747 (like midwest to Asia, or west coast to Europe) get speed restricted. Seasoned controllers know they can't do it at their takeoff weight and that is the type of mistake a rookie controller only makes once!

I admit I have only flown in the US and Canada. My international experience is VERY limited. Maybe in different parts of the world procedures are different, but in the US I speak from my experience. This is part of how I taught speed limits as an instructor and how I apply them in my current job. If I am wrong I am happy to learn. Your arguments have not convinced me though.

Have I explained myself a little better?
What do I know? I just fly 'em.......
 
airbuske
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:05 am



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 16):
Clean, the opposite of dirty. Big grin duck

Does the clean wing not produce enough lift at speeds lower than 250 KIAS?
 
kimberlyRJ
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:23 am

I am not sure if I understand...

So if you have a Boeing 747-400 and its minimum clean wing speed is say 268kts – would ATC then allow the aircraft to go at its minimum clean wing speed, even if that is higher than 250kts?

Keeping the aircraft to 250kts or below, does this also help the aircraft being able to make sharper turns?

Thanks

Kimberly RJ
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:53 am



Quoting Airbuske (Reply 34):
Does the clean wing not produce enough lift at speeds lower than 250 KIAS?

You are correct, depending on the weight of the aircraft.

Quoting Kimberlyrj (Reply 35):
So if you have a Boeing 747-400 and its minimum clean wing speed is say 268kts -- would ATC then allow the aircraft to go at its minimum clean wing speed, even if that is higher than 250kts?

Exactly, the crew normally tells the controller they have an operational need to climb at 288 KIAS as an example.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
DescendVia
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:59 pm



Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 33):
I have heard 895 on departure at work. I've never heard a departure controller (we call it approach or departure, not TRACON)

That is what I said...... I was referencing that you fly into an out of the ORD area a lot like myself.

I have heard 895 saying "request high speed" and then departure pretty much says "OK" and limits the speed to say 280 or whatever.
 
P3Orion
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:37 pm



Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 33):
I have heard 895 on departure at work. I've never heard a departure controller (we call it approach or departure, not TRACON) giving 895 a clearance to fly faster than 250 knots nor have I heard 895 request it. The controller knows they have to fly fast because they have no choice. You may hear the crew give the controller a heads up of what speed they have to do.



Quoting Kimberlyrj (Reply 35):
So if you have a Boeing 747-400 and its minimum clean wing speed is say 268kts – would ATC then allow the aircraft to go at its minimum clean wing speed, even if that is higher than 250kts?



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 37):
have heard 895 saying "request high speed" and then departure pretty much says "OK" and limits the speed to say 280 or whatever

What happens at ORD, with the heavies that need to go fast on departure, is the crew will either contact Clearence Delivery or Ground Metering and advise the controller that they are "unable to comply with the ORD3 and climbout speed will be 285 knots." The controller will then tell the Traffic Management Coordinator who will then tell their counterpart at Chicago TRACON (C90).
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DescendVia
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:33 pm

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 38):
What happens at ORD, with the heavies that need to go fast on departure, is the crew will either contact Clearence Delivery or Ground Metering and advise the controller that they are "unable to comply with the ORD3 and climbout speed will be 285 knots." The controller will then tell the Traffic Management Coordinator who will then tell their counterpart at Chicago TRACON (C90).

OK that makes perfect sense and I do now remember hearing that over metering on one of my examples. Didn't even remember that, thanks for jogging the memory.

[Edited 2009-04-30 10:37:02]
 
zappbrannigan
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Thu May 07, 2009 12:44 am



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 36):
Exactly, the crew normally tells the controller they have an operational need to climb at 288 KIAS as an example.

Around here, it's extremely common for instructions like "maintain maximum speed on descent, cancel speed restriction", or "requirement to reach XYZ time 42, cancel speed restriction".

In the case of heavies which by definition cannot fly clean at 250K, the speed restriction will be lifted without request, e.g. "Qantas 93, cleared XYZ, 6000, no speed restriction".
 
MD-90
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Thu May 07, 2009 1:05 am



Quoting Klemmi85 (Reply 4):
What exactly is this rule being made for? Because of noise reduction?



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
No, it is for traffic separation. Below 10,000 feet, there is usually a lot of traffic landing or departing, plus all of those VFR flights. Having the speed limit keeps closing speeds relatively slow, and keeps the situation from changing too quickly for ATC so they can react more easily to potential conflicts and I would think that having all planes on a level playing field makes sequencing easier.

It's for safety with VFR aircraft operating on "see and avoid."

It also doesn't apply when MOAs (military airspace) are hot.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Thu May 07, 2009 2:54 am



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 41):
It's for safety with VFR aircraft operating on "see and avoid."

In Class B airspace there is no need for that inefficient climb speed of 250 KIAS below 10,000' MSL....all controlled airspace.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
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cpd
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Thu May 07, 2009 3:09 am



Quoting DH106 (Reply 11):
Not flying anymore I know, but wasn't Concorde also exempt/waivered at high weights ?

Concorde sometime received waivers to climb as quickly as they wished. I don't think that it actually needed to go faster than 250 before 10,000ft. I think it was well capable of maintaining 250kts below 10,000ft - but it wouldn't be very efficient doing this for too long.
 
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RE: FAR 250 Knots

Sat May 09, 2009 9:25 pm



Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 29):
I wish every day I could go 300 or 320 till on the ILS!

Until you hit a bird.

Quoting Airbuske (Reply 34):
Does the clean wing not produce enough lift at speeds lower than 250 KIAS?

Correct; not at the heavy weights being discussed.

Quoting Kimberlyrj (Reply 35):
So if you have a Boeing 747-400 and its minimum clean wing speed is say 268kts – would ATC then allow the aircraft to go at its minimum clean wing speed, even if that is higher than 250kts?

Yes.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 42):
In Class B airspace there is no need for that inefficient climb speed of 250 KIAS below 10,000' MSL....all controlled airspace.

Do you control the birds too?

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