propilot83
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The Cockpit Visit

Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:27 pm

Before the terrorist attacks of 9-11, back in the 70's and 80's passengers were allowed to take a peek in the cockpit of airliners during flight. They were allowed to visit the cockpit and see what it was like after permission was granted by the flight crew. Now I know a lot of security parameters have been installed after 9-11 and passengers are no longer allowed to ask to see what the flight deck looks like during flight. However my question is, for those of you who know what www.flightlevel350.com is, how is it still possible that certain passengers with a video camera are allowed inside the cockpit to film the crews landing and take-offs???? Basically, who is allowed to visit the cockpit these days with a video camera?
 
wilco737
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:40 pm



Quoting Propilot83 (Thread starter):

Different countries, different rules. Usually noone is allowed who isn't part of the active crew. But then there are jumpseating crews or mechanics or weight and balance guys who are needed. Here the final decision rests with the commander who he can let into the cockpit or not. On flights to the US and UK noone is allowed into the cockpit, only the active crew members.

wilco737
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:24 pm

As WILCO737 says, it depends on where. At some airlines, jumpseat for "observers" is ok with prior company approval. At some airlines all you need is for the Captain to say ok.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Fri May 01, 2009 9:42 am

Depends on the state & the regulations in place out there,Each airline also has their own SOP.
At times persons jumpseating could be staff of the airline too.
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
EMBQA
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Sat May 02, 2009 1:33 am

Quoting Propilot83 (Thread starter):
how is it still possible that certain passengers with a video camera are allowed inside the cockpit to film the crews landing and take-offs????

Because many of those videos are filmed by crew members

Quoting Propilot83 (Thread starter):
Before the terrorist attacks of 9-11, back in the 70's and 80's passengers were allowed to take a peek in the cockpit of airliners during flight.

Actually not really true... The regulation that covers cockpit access dates back to the early 1970's and has changed very little since then ... it was just tolerated back then.

[Edited 2009-05-01 18:40:00]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Sat May 02, 2009 6:45 am

Cockpit/Flight deck visits on the ground are no issues & need to be requested.
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Sat May 02, 2009 6:53 am



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 4):
Quoting Propilot83 (Thread starter):
Before the terrorist attacks of 9-11, back in the 70's and 80's passengers were allowed to take a peek in the cockpit of airliners during flight.

Actually not really true... The regulation that covers cockpit access dates back to the early 1970's and has changed very little since then ... it was just tolerated back then.

In the US, that is. In the rest of the world... Well, the rules have been as varied as the countries they apply to.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
nema
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Sun May 03, 2009 2:40 pm

And we must remember the pilot who was sacked and, also recently lost his appeal, for letting the UK footballer Robbie Savage on the flight deck on a chartered team flight. Because the footballer was a nervous flyer and the captain thought he might be able to help by showing him what happens up front.

I think the airline was from the holiday company Thomsons or TUi.
There isnt really a dark side to the moon, as a matter of fact its all dark!
 
EMBQA
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Sun May 03, 2009 3:24 pm



Quoting NEMA (Reply 7):
And we must remember the pilot who was sacked and, also recently lost his appeal.......(for letting a passenger)... on the flight deck on a chartered team flight

Odd that.... 1) it's a chartered flight and those normally are a little more lax as the plane is chartered by a single source and all the passengers are from that group... and 2).. who ratted him out...? It had to be someone on in that group...
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
acabgd
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Sun May 03, 2009 3:42 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 8):
Odd that.... 1) it's a chartered flight and those normally are a little more lax as the plane is chartered by a single source and all the passengers are from that group

I really don't see what the security concern in this case might be? I mean, if Robbie is really afraid to fly and the captain agreed to let him ride in the cockipt (yes, I understand it's much nicer for people who are afraid of flying to actually see what is going on) - and the group has chartered the plane, and the guy sitting up front is from that single group..... why sack the pilot??

I think this is really pushing the things too far. Due to my work I'm often flying sports charters (single team/national team/strictly no fans) and the cockipt doors almost always remain open. We've never had any problems whatsoever.
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dazbo5
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Sun May 03, 2009 3:56 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 5):
Cockpit/Flight deck visits on the ground are no issues & need to be requested.

It depends on the airline. A large UK charter airline has a policy of no visits to the flight deck, even on the ground. I know because I ask if it would be possible on a recent flight to be told the company policy is no admittance at any time, ground or not.

Darren
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swiftski
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Sun May 03, 2009 5:55 pm



Quoting NEMA (Reply 7):
I think the airline was from the holiday company Thomsons or TUi.

I think it was MyTravel
 
wilco737
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Sun May 03, 2009 5:59 pm

Some airliners are very strict with that rule, which isn't too bad. We all know what happened back in 2001 and nobody wants to see this again.

You need to be careful how often and who you allow into the cockpit. The times where just everybody can walk in and out are over. I don't see any harm in letting people on the ground before and after a flight into the cockpit. Usually it is kids who want to take a look or a.netters Big grin I never had an a.netter asking me for a cockpit visit. Only several times some people asked me to fill out their personal log book with routing, airspeed etc. Which I always filled out as good as I can.
I used to stand in the cockpit door a lot when the passengers boarded or deboarded. I always thought it would be nice to mabye exchange a word or two. And if anybody asked me to take a quick look into the cockpit, I usually say yes.
But nowadays (my flying freighters), no one is asking anymore. There is just nobody  Smile

wilco737
 
phollingsworth
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Sun May 03, 2009 10:12 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 12):
Some airliners are very strict with that rule, which isn't too bad. We all know what happened back in 2001 and nobody wants to see this again.

Of course in the US the rule was in place in 2001, it was the other procedures and expectations that compounded the situation. There are whole groups of people, in the US at least, that can be on the flight deck during operations. Each airline can choose to designate and get different folks approved. Also in the US FAA employees have the ability to jumpseat. Of course the captain has the final say on who, outside of the flight crew, can be on the flight deck.
 
acabgd
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Mon May 04, 2009 12:49 am



Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 13):
Of course the captain has the final say on who, outside of the flight crew, can be on the flight deck.

Well, apparently in this case the captain didn't have the final say  Sad
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HAWK21M
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Mon May 04, 2009 10:40 pm



Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 13):
Of course the captain has the final say on who, outside of the flight crew, can be on the flight deck.

Shouldn't the company SOP decide that.
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
wilco737
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Tue May 05, 2009 4:55 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 15):
Shouldn't the company SOP decide that.

No, the final decision should be with the commander/ captain. For example on our freighters, we sometimes have people with us who fly with us because we have horses on board or other very valuable freight. The company tells us they fly with us. Now we get on board and talk to these people and show them the saftey things. When we now found out that we cannot communicate with them (language) or they just don't follow our rules, then we can say: nono, you are not flying with us.

wilco737
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Tue May 05, 2009 10:58 am



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 16):
No, the final decision should be with the commander/ captain

Shouldn't that too be mentioned in the SOP....ie.....Who can fly & ultimate decision is with the P1 & reasons on offloading a Jumpseater.
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
PhilSquares
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Tue May 05, 2009 11:37 am



Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 13):
Also in the US FAA employees have the ability to jumpseat.

Not quite. The list of people authorised on the flight deck is extremely limited. FAA inspectors and ATC folks are about it. Again, at the end of the day, it's up to the Captain as to who rides and who walks.
Fly fast, live slow
 
wilco737
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Tue May 05, 2009 12:34 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 17):
Shouldn't that too be mentioned in the SOP....ie.....Who can fly & ultimate decision is with the P1 & reasons on offloading a Jumpseater.

It is in our SOP, but it says as well: "The final decision rests with the commander".

wilco737
 
3MilesToWRO
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Tue May 05, 2009 12:42 pm

Well, I was flying once from Germany to Poland with a large airline  Wink and all I needed to get into the cockpit in the middle of flight was to ask FA "would you mind asking the capitain if I can see the cockpit after landing?". She returned with invitation for _now_. I only had a problem with coming back to my seat (a long way back) and not letting my liver to be seen through my smile  Wink
 
DingDong
Posts: 65
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Tue May 05, 2009 12:52 pm



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 18):
The list of people authorised on the flight deck is extremely limited. FAA inspectors and ATC folks are about it.

Roughly correct, though the actual list is a bit more inclusive:

Crew member working
Company personnel
FAA safety inspector
Federal air marshal
U.S. government personnel
NTSB investigator
Certain 'certificated aeronautical enterprise' technical personnel as needed
ATC controller
A&P
Secret Service agent
Others as approved by the FAA for a particular flight
U.S. Department of Defense commercial air carrier evaluator
Part 142 training center instructors

But, yes, concur with your own comment and that of Wilco737's:

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 18):
Again, at the end of the day, it's up to the Captain as to who rides and who walks.



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 19):
It is in our SOP, but it says as well: "The final decision rests with the commander".

DingDong, honey, please answer the doorbell!
 
EMBQA
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Tue May 05, 2009 1:36 pm



Quoting DingDong (Reply 21):
Crew member working
Company personnel
FAA safety inspector
Federal air marshal
U.S. government personnel
NTSB investigator
Certain 'certificated aeronautical enterprise' technical personnel as needed
ATC controller
A&P
Secret Service agent
Others as approved by the FAA for a particular flight
U.S. Department of Defense commercial air carrier evaluator
Part 142 training center instructors

A few of those you listed are not approved. The FAR's are written in legal jargon so you need to read the entire document before saying someone is approved. In short... the Capt has over all say as to who can be there. Even if approved by the FAR, the Capt can still say No. You must have a valid reason to be there...it's not a free ride up front and in most every case the plane must be full... if there is an open seat in back, you can't ride up front.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
DingDong
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Tue May 05, 2009 1:44 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 22):
A few of those you listed are not approved.

Hmm... In particular, text of section 3-41 and table 3-0, from the FAA:

http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v0...0admin/chapter%2002/03_002_001.htm

Dated May 1, 2008. Could be outdated by now with subsequent amendments, I guess.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 22):
The FAR's are written in legal jargon so you need to read the entire document before saying someone is approved.

Yep.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 22):
In short... the Capt has over all say as to who can be there. Even if approved by the FAR, the Capt can still say No. You must have a valid reason to be there...it's not a free ride up front and in most every case the plane must be full... if there is an open seat in back, you can't ride up front.

I don't think anyone's disagreeing with that. That is indeed the golden standard; the captain is where the buck stops, per 121.547(a)(4) for Part 121 operators.

Cheers,

[Edited 2009-05-05 07:00:42]
DingDong, honey, please answer the doorbell!
 
EMBQA
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Tue May 05, 2009 2:20 pm



Quoting DingDong (Reply 23):

What you quoted is not the actual FAR, but a section on exemptions, deviations, waivers, and authorizations...if you go to FAR 121.547 you can read the actual FAR....it's all but the same. I kinda liked this as it breaks down when they are approved to be there....
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
DingDong
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:45 pm

RE: The Cockpit Visit

Tue May 05, 2009 2:33 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 24):
What you quoted is not the actual FAR, but a section on exemptions, deviations, waivers, and authorizations

Fair enough, and I had guessed you might say that, actually. 

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 24):
I kinda liked this as it breaks down when they are approved to be there....

Indeed. That was a big reason why I bookmarked it. It's a handy reference for my little crib sheet when folks asks about specific things related to this common question. 

(As you already know, it also nicely answers the other common question of who needs a reserved seat in the back while jumpseating, too.)

[Edited 2009-05-05 07:46:04]
DingDong, honey, please answer the doorbell!
 
PGNCS
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Tue May 12, 2009 9:24 pm



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 18):
ATC folks are about it.

I thought the controllers were no longer allowed, either. I no longer can find reference to them in my operator's guidance, and I haven't had one on the jumpseat for years and years. Personally, I think they should be able to do fam rides as it helps them to understand the clearances they give that are problematic.
 
CFV2
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RE: The Cockpit Visit

Fri May 15, 2009 1:10 am



Quoting NEMA (Reply 7):
And we must remember the pilot who was sacked and, also recently lost his appeal, for letting the UK footballer Robbie Savage on the flight deck on a chartered team flight. Because the footballer was a nervous flyer and the captain thought he might be able to help by showing him what happens up front.

I think the airline was from the holiday company Thomsons or TUi.

You're talking about Pablo Mason, a captain for MyTravel;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/7034412.stm

And, uhm, I'm probably wrong.... but I was under the impression that the CAA mandates that cockpit doors be locked on all flights. No? And, MyTravel was kinda explicit in that it has a zero-tolerance policy towards people who 'bend' these rules, like Mason admitted to doing.

End of story, really. Break the rules, get fired. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

Rules are usually made for a reason - and, agree with them or not, you break them at your own peril.
I just do what I'm told.

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