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DocLightning
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Non-ETOPS Delivery Flight

Fri May 01, 2009 9:51 pm

I remember that when the 717's were delivered to HA, they had to put a fuel bladder in the cockpit to allow the planes to make to HNL.

Now, I can't imagine that the 717 is ETOPS-certified. With a range under 2,000 NM it wouldn't need to be.

So how did they get around that to fly it to Hawaii?
-Doc Lightning-

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tdscanuck
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RE: Non-ETOPS Delivery Flight

Fri May 01, 2009 10:03 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
I remember that when the 717's were delivered to HA, they had to put a fuel bladder in the cockpit to allow the planes to make to HNL.

I'm pretty sure the fuel bladder is in the cabin, not the cockpit.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Now, I can't imagine that the 717 is ETOPS-certified. With a range under 2,000 NM it wouldn't need to be.

So how did they get around that to fly it to Hawaii?

It's not a revenue flight...FAR 125 doesn't apply.

Tom.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Non-ETOPS Delivery Flight

Fri May 01, 2009 10:29 pm



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 1):

I'm pretty sure the fuel bladder is in the cabin, not the cockpit.

Sorry, typo.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 1):

It's not a revenue flight...FAR 125 doesn't apply.

So do you pay the pilots extra hazard pay or something?
-Doc Lightning-

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Flighty
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RE: Non-ETOPS Delivery Flight

Fri May 01, 2009 10:47 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
So do you pay the pilots extra hazard pay or something?

Doc, all kinds of people -- in all kinds of planes -- fly over blue water. It's just, it is not considered safe enough for American commercial airline services (mainly to protect the passengers). A good example is corporate pilots. The Gulfstream does not have ETOPS certification (AFAIK) but since it is a private plane, you can fly it anywhere you please. You just can't operate an airline and sell tickets on such a flight. This isn't especially "dangerous," it just doesn't meet the super safety rules we have for commercial carriers.

Delivery flights by Boeing and Airbus also go over blue water. So the empty A320s and 737s can be seen doing pretty exotic overwater flights, even if they do not have ETOPS.
 
Soku39
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RE: Non-ETOPS Delivery Flight

Fri May 01, 2009 10:57 pm



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 1):

It's not a revenue flight...FAR 125 doesn't apply.

It's not scheduled either, so you might be able to fly under part 91, not completely sure about that though.
The Ohio Player
 
DescendVia
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RE: Non-ETOPS Delivery Flight

Sat May 02, 2009 12:19 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):

So do you pay the pilots extra hazard pay or something?

They might get a little bump but again that is why airlines have "test" pilots, just for this type of work.

Quoting Soku39 (Reply 4):
It's not scheduled either, so you might be able to fly under part 91, not completely sure about that though.

Actually its part 25 IIRC for transport type jets.
 
citationjet
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RE: Non-ETOPS Delivery Flight

Sat May 02, 2009 12:04 pm

Quoting DescendVia (Reply 5):
Actually its part 25 IIRC for transport type jets.

You are confusing aircraft certification requirements with aircraft operational requirements. Part 25 are the certification requirements for the 717. The operational requirements for its commercial operations are Part 121, and for non-commercial operations (ferry in this case) is Part 91.

The plane is designed to Part 25, and that never changes. The aircraft can operate Part 91 and Part 121 the same day.

Here are some photos. Rather than fuel bladders, I would call them fuel tanks. The question I would have is how are these tanks entered into the fuselage? They seem too big to come thru the main entry door or emergency exit. Are they loaded partially assembled, and assembled inside the fuslage?


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Photo © AirNikon Collection-Pima Air and Space Museum



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Photo © AirNikon Collection-Pima Air and Space Museum



[Edited 2009-05-02 05:10:23]

[Edited 2009-05-02 05:16:19]
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
 
Okie
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RE: Non-ETOPS Delivery Flight

Sat May 02, 2009 1:38 pm



Quoting CitationJet (Reply 6):
They seem too big to come thru the main entry door or emergency exit.

They are designed to fit through the passenger door. You just have to remember that the interior is removed in the area, including seats, bulkheads, front galley if it is in the way.
If you look closely even the overhead bins are missing, which I am not sure if they are removed for weight issues or clearance.

Okie
 
citationjet
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RE: Non-ETOPS Delivery Flight

Sat May 02, 2009 1:45 pm



Quoting Okie (Reply 7):
If you look closely even the overhead bins are missing

I guess the tanks must fit thru the main door, they just look pretty wide.

The overhead bins look like they are in place to me. The top photos show the overhead bins, with one bin door open.
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
 
s.p.a.s.
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RE: Non-ETOPS Delivery Flight

Sun May 03, 2009 4:47 am



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 5):
It's not scheduled either, so you might be able to fly under part 91, not completely sure about that though.

All airline deliveries I have been involved the past 4 years were planned and executed as part91 flights, including the use of the plane registration as the flight call-sign. This was the case from new aircraft departing from Seattle and used ones departing from places like Singapore, Stansted and Taipei.

BTW, bizjets have no ETOPS certification, but planning over-water take ETPs into consideration.

Cheers
RS
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ha763
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RE: Non-ETOPS Delivery Flight

Sun May 03, 2009 5:47 am



Quoting CitationJet (Reply 6):
They seem too big to come thru the main entry door or emergency exit. Are they loaded partially assembled, and assembled inside the fuslage?

I have seen these tanks in person and they are around 30 inches wide and around 60 inches long. The 717 L1 door clearance is 34.7 inches and the floor is about 120 inches across. More than enough room to fit through the L1 door.
 
andz
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RE: Non-ETOPS Delivery Flight

Sun May 03, 2009 8:59 am

You can go even smaller than that. My wife's uncle bought a King Air C-90 at Beech and it was flown from Wichita to Johannesburg. Okay, they didn't fly straight across the ocean but it did involve some extensive water hops.

There is even a picture of it in the database:


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aerdingus
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RE: Non-ETOPS Delivery Flight

Sun May 03, 2009 12:31 pm



Quoting Andz (Reply 11):
My wife's uncle bought a King Air C-90 at Beech and it was flown from Wichita to Johannesburg.

whoa! how long did that take?
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Sasha
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RE: Non-ETOPS Delivery Flight

Sun May 03, 2009 1:58 pm

Thinking of it - they do manage to somehow get Twotters, Q400s from North America to Europe and vice versa - Dornier 328 and ATRs  Smile
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Viscount724
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RE: Non-ETOPS Delivery Flight

Mon May 04, 2009 2:43 am



Quoting Sasha (Reply 13):
Thinking of it - they do manage to somehow get Twotters, Q400s from North America to Europe and vice versa - Dornier 328 and ATRs

Canadian operator Kenn Borek Air (based in YYC) ferries several Twin Otters every year between the Canadian Arctic region where they often operate on skis at temperatures of -40 or -50C all the way to the Maldives, where the aircraft and crews operate on floats for Maldivian Air Taxi. Assuming they start at their home base in YYC, with all the fuel stops needed that's a trip of roughly 10,000 nm.

Kenn Borek DHC-6s have frequently landed at both the North and South Poles. Second photo below shows two of them at the South Pole.Their fleet includes almost 40 Twin Otters.


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Photo © Jason Pineau
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Photo © Ddphotos



And in the Maldives in slightly more tropical surroundings.


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Photo © Ralf Meyermann



A Kenn Borek Twin Otter (with Maldivian Air Taxi markings; they're re-registered in the Maldives during those wetlease operations) arriving at BHX from KEF during one of its long ferry flights, with another 5,000 nm or so to go..


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Photo © Dave Sturges

 
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DocLightning
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RE: Non-ETOPS Delivery Flight

Tue May 05, 2009 4:13 pm



Quoting CitationJet (Reply 6):

Thank you very much for posting those pics! Very informative!  thumbsup 
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