Fly2HMO
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Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:19 pm

So I'm starting my CFII course and I've grown kinda sick of using the same old local APPs every time. I have a level 6 simulator for a C172 NAV III (G1000) activity tomorrow and I've been trying to pick a few interesting approaches to do. The G1000 can do pretty much any approach out there except RNP. I don't want to do an NDB approach as we don't have an actual ADF and using the GPS in lieu of an NDB is too easy frankly. I have access to worldwide jeppcharts so they can be anywhere.

So far I've picked these:

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0905/05222VDTZ15.PDF

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0905/00683ILD13.PDF

So does anybody have some other interesting approaches that would keep me on my toes?  eyebrow 
 
KELPkid
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:55 pm

Too bad they took the NDB hold over the LOM out of the MMV ILS RWY 22...when I got my instrument, that was a favorite airport of my instructor  mischievous  . Unfortunately, the MINNE LOM was decomissioned, but it used to be that to get established on the localizer at KMMV own nav, you had to do a hold entry at MINNE, and then once you were inbound on the hold and the localizer needle was alive, then you could descend from 2400' to 2100' until you crossed MINNE (which was also the outer marker...). And the missed approach procedure? Climb to 900', initiate a right turn and fly the localizer needle back to MINNE (reverse-sensing, of course  Wink ) Followed by a left-handed NDB hold at MINNE. The procedure has, unfortunately, been significantly changed...however I can tell you that the MMV ILS RWY 22 was also a challenging approach because the FAF to MAP is also exremely short (IIRC, it is something like 2 minutes 40 seconds at 90 kts groundspeed....). The instructors at my flight school, of course, loved to torture their students with this one. The plus side is that you could probably fit in about 5-6 ILS'es in an hour on this approach due to it's compact size...  Wink

The LOC BC at SLE is also a very interesting approach-one of the few back course approaches still comissioned!
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IAHFLYR
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:52 am

Just fly the RNAV (GPS)- D approach into EGE if you can get the C172 up that high!  Smile

http://avn.faa.gov/d-tpp/0906/06403RD.PDF

OR, try the RNAV (GPS) V RWY 8 into JNU.

http://avn.faa.gov/d-tpp/0906/01191RV8.PDF
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:03 am

Here's one

Martin State Airport (KMTN) VOR/DME or TACAN Z RWY 15

http://avn.faa.gov/d-tpp/0906/05222VDTZ15.PDF

Its a DME arc to the missed approach point. Should you go missed, fly the inbound radial, to yet another DME arc. It isn't bad until you go missed. Have fun with that.


-DiamondFlyer
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Soku39
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:03 am

http://forums.jetcareers.com/general...fficult-instrument-approaches.html

There are a couple threads like that floating around, one a couple months ago, but I can't find it.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:34 am



Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):

Martin State Airport (KMTN) VOR/DME or TACAN Z RWY 15

Isn't that the same one as the first one in the thread starter?  Smile

Quoting FLY2HMO (Thread starter):
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0905/05222VDTZ15.PDF

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Fly2HMO
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:40 am



Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
Martin State Airport (KMTN) VOR/DME or TACAN Z RWY 15

Thats one I already posted lol

I was more thinking more along the lines of using multiple ground based navaids, like VOR/VOR or VOR/LOC and hwat have you not. There are some interesting RNAV approaches out there but the G1000 really makes them so easy its boring. I'm thinking an approach with a high workload...  scratchchin 
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:07 am

Doh, I feel like an idiot now. Been a long day, and every time I see one of these, that approach comes to mind. Nothing is particularly hard in a G1000, if you know how to use the system. Go find a PCATD or the like, with the traditional gauges or whatever.

Here's one, that there is nothing particular hard about, other than the fact that it is really, really long. Seems to take forever when you fly it.

http://avn.faa.gov/d-tpp/0906/06484VDA.PDF

Here is one that, while nothing is hard on the approach, you've got a maximum altitude listed on the missed. Which, if you missed, could put you in the way of some significant traffic.

http://avn.faa.gov/d-tpp/090600305LBC25.PDF

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
OffshoreAir
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:41 am



Quoting FLY2HMO (Thread starter):
Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

My first one with my instructor, also I was his first instrument student.
OffshoreAir
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:45 pm



Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 7):


Here's one, that there is nothing particular hard about, other than the fact that it is really, really long. Seems to take forever when you fly it.

http://avn.faa.gov/d-tpp/0906/06484V...A.PDF

Hmmm seems like there's also potential for confusion when using the twist 10/turn 10 method to arc if you set up your CDI/HSI wrong  scratchchin 

Good charts guys  yes 
 
DescendVia
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:51 am

I really like the VOR 35 at KOA. There is no radar below 5000 feet so if you had to fly an IAP, you get the full approach. Its a great approach off IAI IAF or the DME ARC off MYNAH. You can join the approach at MYNAH off the V3, V11, or V5 or just keep going to IAI.

Another one is the VOR/DME 17 to the other end. If you fly it right to the VDP, your gonna be yanking and banking like a mother.

I would recommend any of the Hawaii airports other then airports on Oahu, except maybe the LDA/DME 26L at HNL. Its a non-standard approach with a real tight bank over the beaches on short final.

If you want a "werid" approach try MFM. Either approach flying it in full is hard but the LOC/DME 16 is one mother. Its the impiety of a non-standard approach with one of the hardest missed approaches procedures you will see.

I will say the VOR/DME 17 and LDA/DME 26L are much more "fun" in bigger aircraft so just keep that in mind.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:02 am

Try the SINKO arrival to Kumamoto, Japan (RJFT). Fly to the local airport VOR, then descend to a fix starting an 18 mile DME arc, but only about 40 degrees of the arc is flown to another crossing altitude fix. Then double back to the airport VOR to fly visual lead-in lights to runway 25 with terrain on all sides of a small valley. Fun stuff!
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DescendVia
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:13 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):

That reminds me.......

You might also want to look at the VOR circling approaches at HND. You come in from the southeast and follow lead-in lights doing almost a complete 180 to land back to the east-southeast. Then again you would need to find out if your sim had LDIN lights or not.
 
CPH-R
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:56 am

I know this isn't what the OP was looking for, but I just had to post this lovely RNP approach into Linzhi (ZUNZ): http://www.naverus.com/documents/ZUNZ_All_Tracks.pdf

There's a video up on youtube from the cockpit of the inaugural CA B757 flying there.
 
sccutler
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:41 am

The LOC/DME-E at Aspen Pitkin (KASE) is a real hum-dinger, including a mandatory LOC- BC to intercept on the missed.

Not to mention, over 5,000 vertical descent in less than ten NM. Good times!

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0905/05889LDE.PDF
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
Timlin88
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:07 pm

Wow! Some great approaches here! Admittedly, I'm no pilot (yet  Smile), but I generally have no trouble reading a chart, but I had to look at Martin State Airport (KMTN) VOR/DME or TACAN Z RWY 15 for about 5 minutes to understand even where the field was! Then I realized I just had to follow the arrows......anyway.

How does one follow a DME arc? A small calculated bank angle maintained to keep distance where it should be?

Matti
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:06 pm



Quoting Timlin88 (Reply 15):

How does one follow a DME arc? A small calculated bank angle maintained to keep distance where it should be?

Spatial visualization, an accurately timed turn and the ability to read a DME readout are the general requirements  Wink Knowing basic wind correction is useful as well.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
DescendVia
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:01 pm



Quoting Timlin88 (Reply 15):
How does one follow a DME arc? A small calculated bank angle maintained to keep distance where it should be?

If you don't have RMI (Radio Magnetic Indicators) or you shooting it raw you turn 10 twist 10. For me its kinda hard to explain it, so maybe someone else can.

If you have in database, you can just let nav it through and monitory raw data.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:12 pm

NDB approaches are still common here in Canada, as are VOR approaches. Not because we do them, but because they still exist, we must be trained/tested on them in the simulator. Just in case both GPSs, all three IRSs and the coffeepot all fail at the same time ... yeah, whatever.

Last one I did on one engine, autopilot failed and to a missed approach.

But the toughest IFR approaches we do in actual conditions are at YYT. You have probably be told when fog exists, winds are usually calm, not so in YYT. It is not uncommon to do a CAT I, to RVR 1200 (legal with centre line lighting) with a 35 knot crosswind, or a CAT II/III in a 25 knot headwind. The reward .. its a cool place to layover.
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KELPkid
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:41 pm



Quoting LongHauler (Reply 18):
NDB approaches are still common here in Canada, as are VOR approaches. Not because we do them, but because they still exist, we must be trained/tested on them in the simulator. Just in case both GPSs, all three IRSs and the coffeepot all fail at the same time ... yeah, whatever.

Last one I did on one engine, autopilot failed and to a missed approach.

It was drilled into my head (by the teacher) in my commercial ground school that, should you ever have to fly a real single-engined approach, it behooves you to select an ILS (or maybe nowdays, a GPS approach with vertical guidance  Wink ) as a fair number of accidents have happened in twins while levelling out (and getting a little careless about Vmc) on step-down fixes on nonprecision approaches...

Granted, I don't have a multi license myself  Wink
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longhauler
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:37 am



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 19):
It was drilled into my head (by the teacher) in my commercial ground school that, should you ever have to fly a real single-engined approach, it behooves you to select an ILS (or maybe nowdays, a GPS approach with vertical guidance ) as a fair number of accidents have happened in twins while levelling out (and getting a little careless about Vmc) on step-down fixes on nonprecision approaches...

Very few non-precision approaches are done using a "step-down" any more. If a non-presicion approach is performed now, a CDA "constant descent angle" is calculated for the approach in question, and that angle is flown to a DA "decision altitude", whereby a missed approach is performed if there is no ground contact. No more timing, and no more ducking down to an MDA and dragging it in until time is up. Thankfully those days are long gone.

Your instructor is correct. If you have declared an emergency, ATC can and will give you all the help they can, including likely an ILS approach. But one thing I have learned, the simulator is nothing like the real world!

I had a friend who recently completed the "Command Course" at Air Canada. His final Simulator check after all simulator and line indoc training was completed, had to be done ... the last T to be crossed. It went like this:

He did an RVR600 take-off, at V1 had an uncontrollable engine fire. As the fire did not extinguish, he elected to return to do a CAT II approach below minimums. (RVR1200 is required). On downwind and when preparing for the approach, he had an elevator fault which could not be cleared, so now the autopilot became unserviceable. As he was hand flying it on base leg, 12 miles final, the First Officer died!

So finally he called out to the check pilot behind him, as he was flying the aircraft. "Let me get this straight, I am hand flying a CAT II approach below minimums with an engine shut down and still on fire, and the First Officer incapacitated. What's next ... locusts?"

He passed. But I'll take a real world single engine ILS any day!  Smile
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
DescendVia
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RE: Most Interesting/challenging Instrument Aproaches

Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:41 am



Quoting LongHauler (Reply 20):

He did an RVR600 take-off, at V1 had an uncontrollable engine fire. As the fire did not extinguish, he elected to return to do a CAT II approach below minimums. (RVR1200 is required). On downwind and when preparing for the approach, he had an elevator fault which could not be cleared, so now the autopilot became unserviceable. As he was hand flying it on base leg, 12 miles final, the First Officer died!

 rotfl 

And I thought shooting an ILS approach off the standby with everything black and breaking out at minimums only to have the check pilot realize he didn't mean for them to break out and change the weather to like 0/0 was a bit much  Smile

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