SKY1
Topic Author
Posts: 611
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:03 am

Mtow On The Longest AA Flight

Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Having into account DEL-ORD is 15 hr 25 min according to aa.com, I'm surprised how restricted the MTOW must be on this leg, specially for a simple 777-200ER.


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My questions:

1.- Does anybody know on this board what's the exact restriction in the ORD-DEL-ORD leg?

2.- Being AA a key customer for Boeing ...Is there any chance for Boing about to get a new AA order for the 777-200LR?

3.- Is performing well the Indian market for AA?

Thanks in advance and sorry if it's already been discussed before.
Time flies! Enjoy life!
 
elmothehobo
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:10 am

RE: Mtow On The Longest AA Flight

Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:26 pm

1. I can't speak to any technical aspects of the flight.

2. Boeing and American had a little "disagreement" in the late 1990s about the 777NGs. American opted to used RR powered 777s, Boeing made GE the exclusive engine provider on the -200LR and -300ER.

To show it's unhappiness, American went and signed an MoU with Airbus for A340-500s, which are, as we know RR powered. Of course this was nothing more than a PR stunt, and it was nearly a decade ago (Singapore Air Show, 2000)

With that said, American ought to have followed in Delta's footsteps and ordered the -200LR. There are several routes in the network that could use it (Dallas-Hong Kong, Dallas-Dubai, Miami-Johannesburg, Chicago-Mumbai, etc...). It would add a new fleet type and require a new maintenance program for the GE engines.

Yes there is a chance, it did get much smaller when they ordered the 787 IMO. There is also a chance of snow in Los Angeles from time to time. Who knows.

3. Well, it's (still) flying, something that can't be said of Nagoya, Osaka, Moscow (year round), and Beijing.
 
Transpac787
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RE: Mtow On The Longest AA Flight

Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:45 pm



Quoting SKY1 (Thread starter):
1.- Does anybody know on this board what's the exact restriction in the ORD-DEL-ORD leg?

Not to say it's "unrestricted", however AA's 777-223/ER's can operate DEL-ORD at 100% load-factor year round.

Quoting SKY1 (Thread starter):
3.- Is performing well the Indian market for AA?

*Very* strong performer in premium cabin bookings. Seasonal loads in Y-cabin, but consistently high loads in premium cabins.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 1):
Miami-Johannesburg

The 772ER might be able to do this anyway. It's a good 300 miles shorter than JNB-ATL, and would most likely be shorter than 16 hours on the block time.

The concern, however, is JNB's field elevation. Engine-out takeoff performance might not allow nonstop with 92,000# or 95,000# thrust engines... though, I'm just spitballing on that one.
 
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747classic
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RE: Mtow On The Longest AA Flight

Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:49 pm

.

Quoting SKY1 (Thread starter):
Having into account DEL-ORD is 15 hr 25 min according to aa.com, I'm surprised how restricted the MTOW must be on this leg, specially for a simple 777-200ER.

In ORD the MTOW (structural) will be the limiting factor. (or it must be very HOT weather)
In DEL the perf. lim TOW in most cases will be the limiting factor (HOT and High airport), especially for the 777-200ER
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Mtow On The Longest AA Flight

Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:50 pm

There are significantly longer 772ER nonstops than AA's ORD-DEL. For example, CO uses the 772ER EWR-HKG which is 500 nm further.

ORD-DEL 6503 nm
EWR-HKG 7009 nm

Quoting SKY1 (Thread starter):
surprised how restricted the MTOW must be on this leg, specially for a simple 777-200ER.

Why would MTOW be restricted? I can see why they might have to restrict payload to maximize fuel carried on the longest routes, but the only reason I can think of for restricting maximum takeoff weight would be possible runway length restrictions. And westbound DEL-ORD is no doubt the more critical sector due to headwinds and high temperatures much of the year at DEL. Whether that would require a reduced MTOW for a 772 from DEL I have no idea.
 
CALMSP
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RE: Mtow On The Longest AA Flight

Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:50 pm



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 2):
Not to say it's "unrestricted", however AA's 777-223/ER's can operate DEL-ORD at 100% load-factor year round.

how can you be sure of this???
 
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747classic
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RE: Mtow On The Longest AA Flight

Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:58 pm



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 2):
Not to say it's "unrestricted", however AA's 777-223/ER's can operate DEL-ORD at 100% load-factor year round

100% loadfactor means MZFW ? or are you calculating with all seats occupied?
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
md94
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RE: Mtow On The Longest AA Flight

Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:04 pm

I flew ORD-DEL round trip a few weeks ago and spent some time speaking with the Captain during the flight on his break. He said they take off with a full fuel load and did not mention anything about having to weight restrict any. I did not specifically ask him but it was my understanding of the conversation they do not have to.

He said the only real problems they have is on the return flight to ORD with the winds and the potential to divert for fuel if they cross the threshold below minimums. We crossed the threshold (somewhere over very northern Canada) at 200 lbs over, so we squeaked by. He said this is unusual but we had to do a maximum rate of climb out of DEL to altitude due to a change in routing over Pakistan. Plus we had to taxi to a different runway because the winds shifted. It was an interesting conversation and I appreciated the Captain's time.
72?, 732/3/7/8/9, 763/4, 772/3, 744, 787, MD88/90, F100, 319/20/21, E145/135/175/195, CRJ200/700, B206, 152/72/8
 
SKY1
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RE: Mtow On The Longest AA Flight

Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:13 pm



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 1):
To show it's unhappiness, American went and signed an MoU with Airbus for A340-500s, which are, as we know RR powered. Of course this was nothing more than a PR stunt, and it was nearly a decade ago (Singapore Air Show, 2000)

Thanks for the input, I didn't know that.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 1):
With that said, American ought to have followed in Delta's footsteps and ordered the -200LR. There are several routes in the network that could use it (Dallas-Hong Kong, Dallas-Dubai, Miami-Johannesburg, Chicago-Mumbai, etc...).

I agree. Also with the -LR, AA could fly non-stop to key Asian destinations such as BKK or SIN


Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 1):
Yes there is a chance, it did get much smaller when they ordered the 787 IMO

I think you're agree, but let's to see what is gonna happen.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 1):
Well, it's (still) flying, something that can't be said of Nagoya, Osaka, Moscow (year round), and Beijing

It's strange a route from the chinese capital to the US can't have good loads. What happened with the PEK services?

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 2):
however AA's 777-223/ER's can operate DEL-ORD at 100% load-factor year round.

Are you sure?

Quoting 747classic (Reply 3):
In DEL the perf. lim TOW in most cases will be the limiting factor (HOT and High airport), especially for the 777-200ER

No wonder why DEL-ORD leaves at 12:15 a.m.  Wink
Time flies! Enjoy life!
 
laca773
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RE: Mtow On The Longest AA Flight

Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:50 pm



Quoting SKY1 (Reply 8):
No wonder why DEL-ORD leaves at 12:15 a.m.

This must be one of the main reasons why a lot of long haul flights from DEL leave after midnight. It cools down a bit allowing for better performance.
 
Dtw757
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RE: Mtow On The Longest AA Flight

Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:22 pm

The planned takeoff weight for ORD-DEL yesterday was 646000 lbs and DEL-ORD was 646900 lbs. The actuals were a few thousand less.
721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,346,388,146,CR2,7,
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Mtow On The Longest AA Flight

Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:30 pm



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 2):
*Very* strong performer in premium cabin bookings. Seasonal loads in Y-cabin, but consistently high loads in premium cabins.

If AA had a lower cost structure, ORD-DEL would be a star. However because AA's costs are so high, it loses money as often as it makes it. Its sad because loads are very high on this route in F and Y and pretty good in J (of paying pax).

That being said, at least for now, this flight isnt going anywhere.
It is what it is...
 
Flighty
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RE: Mtow On The Longest AA Flight

Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:20 pm



Quoting 747classic (Reply 6):

100% loadfactor means MZFW ?

Certainly not. That is not what 100% load factor means. It means 100% of seats can be occupied by passengers, and their bags can be carried below. On an AA 777 this is much below MZFW.

I discussed the flight with my friend yesterday who says she does not think AA's cabin service is very competitive with others exit DEL. But AA's connections to corporate America probably keep the route healthy.
 
SKY1
Topic Author
Posts: 611
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:03 am

RE: Mtow On The Longest AA Flight

Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:39 pm



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
There are significantly longer 772ER nonstops than AA's ORD-DEL. For example, CO uses the 772ER EWR-HKG which is 500 nm further.

Both, EWR and HKG are on the sea level, unlike DEL. I know DEL is not very high (about 350 m) but I see logical American's flight leaves at midnight time in order to minimize the payload restriction avoiding the warmest temperature at DEL, specially during the daytime in summer time

Quoting Md94 (Reply 7):
He said they take off with a full fuel load



Quoting Md94 (Reply 7):
We crossed the threshold (somewhere over very northern Canada) at 200 lbs over, so we squeaked by. He said this is unusual but we had to do a maximum rate of climb out of DEL to altitude due to a change in routing over Pakistan.

A maximum rate of climb having a 777 full of fuel? Was the flight full of pax. that day?

Quoting Dtw757 (Reply 10):
The planned takeoff weight for ORD-DEL yesterday was 646000 lbs and DEL-ORD was 646900 lbs. The actuals were a few thousand less.

According to Boeing, the MTOW of 777-200ER is in 656,000 lbs (297,500 kgs) ...so very close to the maximum.

It looks like clear there is a minimum restriction or not restriction at all on the payload because the flight leaves at night time
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