PWMRamper
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Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:37 am

I noticed this over the past week at PWM when Delta brings in its MD-88's.

The stairs at the back of the aircraft are lowered to the ground and remain lowered until the plane pushes back.

Any reason for this?
 
CRJ900
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:35 am

Perhaps they are airing out the cabin, people do fart a lot when flying and many have never heard of "shower" or "deodorant"...  Wink
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Starlionblue
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:53 am

Speculation:
1. Airing out the cabin as CRJ900 says.
2. Prevent the aircraft from falling on its bum-bum in case the CoG moves too far aft during loading and unloading.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
744lover
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:20 pm

I'm not sure if this is the reason,

But on the 727 we lowered the AFT stairs in order to prevent tail tipping. Maybe on the Mad Dog this should be the reason too...


Just my 2 cents!
744lover
 
boeing767mech
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:30 pm



Quoting PWMRamper (Thread starter):
The stairs at the back of the aircraft are lowered to the ground and remain lowered until the plane pushes back.

Probably so the cleaners can come up the aft stairs and clean the cabin as people are leaving, I know that is what we do AAt my little airline. As for tipping back, they load and unload the fwd pit first. We also have to have 5000 pounds of fuel in the ceneter tank to move an -80.

But is differenet from company to company.

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
PWMRamper
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:58 pm

Well I was curious about the cleaning so I sat and watched and nobody used the stairs...

...tail-tipping sounds interesting, are the MD-88's tailheavy?
 
pwm2txlhopper
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:19 pm



Quoting PWMRamper (Thread starter):
I noticed this over the past week at PWM when Delta brings in its MD-88's.

When I worked the DL ramp at PWM, we'd use the rear stairs for the cabin service guys to access the aircraft. It saved turn time when the guys could access the plane as soon as it came to a stop at the gate, rather then wait in the jetway for 10-15 minutes waiting for passengers to get off.
 
josekmlb
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:28 pm

The reason of the aft stairs is a few things.

1st is in case of an emergency at the gate and for people to get a quick escape in the back of the plane without having to deploy the aft cone and slide.

2nd is like what people said before is for cabin cleaning for quick turns.

When cleaning the planes for rons thats the reason we leave the stairs down in case of an emergency and if we have no working ac we open the back door to get some wind in as well.

But the main reason is in case of an emergency to let people escape in the back of the plane quickly instead of running over people to the front.
 
josekmlb
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:42 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):



Quoting 744lover (Reply 3):



Quoting PWMRamper (Reply 5):

I dont ever recall a MD-88 tipping over. The 727 was tail heavy because of the 3rd engine on its tail and all the bags in the aft. I could be wrong on this one though but I'm trying to remember if I ever heared of the MD-88 being tail heavy which I cant recall, so I think its just in case of emergencys and another use of an exit if the getway breaks down.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:54 pm



Quoting 744lover (Reply 3):
But on the 727 we lowered the AFT stairs in order to prevent tail tipping. Maybe on the Mad Dog this should be the reason too...

Not a problem for the MD-80.

Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 4):
Probably so the cleaners can come up the aft stairs and clean the cabin as people are leaving, I know that is what we do AAt my little airline.

It's done first for emergency egress while at the gate (aft door/tailcone disarmed) and for ease of access for cabin service personnel.

Quoting PWMRamper (Reply 5):
Well I was curious about the cleaning so I sat and watched and nobody used the stairs...

...tail-tipping sounds interesting, are the MD-88's tailheavy?

It's a procedure at many if not most MD-80 operators for potential ground egress considerations.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 6):
When I worked the DL ramp at PWM, we'd use the rear stairs for the cabin service guys to access the aircraft. It saved turn time when the guys could access the plane as soon as it came to a stop at the gate, rather then wait in the jetway for 10-15 minutes waiting for passengers to get off.

 checkmark  Yep; it's a big time saver.

Quoting JoseKMLB (Reply 7):
1st is in case of an emergency at the gate and for people to get a quick escape in the back of the plane without having to deploy the aft cone and slide.

Jose nailed it!  Smile
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:26 am

The aft stairs will not support the plane like those on a 727. If they are down and you lift the nose, well just leave the badge on your way out.
 
josekmlb
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:56 am



Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 10):

HAHAHA very true.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:18 pm



Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 10):
The aft stairs will not support the plane like those on a 727.

True. The DC-9/MD-80 series ventral stairs won't support the aircraft because there is no need for them to, unlike the 727.

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 10):
If they are down and you lift the nose, well just leave the badge on your way out.

That made me laugh out loud! Thanks!  Smile
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:39 pm

Looks like path of access thats all.The aft stair won't provide the purpose of a tail support assy.
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:56 am

Per Delta GOM the main reason for the MD-88 aft stairs lowering is to prevent tail-tipping of the aircraft.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:46 am



Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 14):

Per Delta GOM the main reason for the MD-88 aft stairs lowering is to prevent tail-tipping of the aircraft.

Is there a ref to that in the official documents.
regds
MEL...
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
boeing767mech
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:18 pm



Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 14):
Per Delta GOM the main reason for the MD-88 aft stairs lowering is to prevent tail-tipping of the aircraft.

Interesting because per Douglas MD-80 AMM 52-63-00-0 Par 2 B . "Warning: Do Not permit Extended aft strairway to support weight of aircraft. Tail jack should be installed when performing maintenance on aircraft to prevent injury to personnel or damage to aircraft." This is in big lettering and high lighted in red.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 9):
It's a procedure at many if not most MD-80 operators for potential ground egress considerations.



Quoting PGNCS (Reply 9):
It's done first for emergency egress while at the gate (aft door/tailcone disarmed) and for ease of access for cabin service personnel.

I work for the largest MD-80 operator in the world and we do not have this procedure in place. Infact most of the time the stairs are not even openned for a turn around or cleaning crew as stated before. We only open them when the airplane is on a hard stand and there is no stand for the L1 door to get into the airplane.

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
Max Q
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:23 pm

The 727 rear stairs have hydraulic 'arms' that lock over centre and these will support the Aircraft and prevent the nose rising.


This was a required walk around check for me as a Second Officer in another life..


As stated the MD80 stairs cannot do the same.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:56 am



Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 16):
Interesting because per Douglas MD-80 AMM 52-63-00-0 Par 2 B . "Warning: Do Not permit Extended aft strairway to support weight of aircraft. Tail jack should be installed when performing maintenance on aircraft to prevent injury to personnel or damage to aircraft." This is in big lettering and high lighted in red.



Quoting Max Q (Reply 17):
The 727 rear stairs have hydraulic 'arms' that lock over centre and these will support the Aircraft and prevent the nose rising.

I don't think an Air stair will be build to take the weight of a tipping without contributing to added damage to the mechanism.Its the function of a Tail support assembly.

regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Max Q
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:19 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):


Quoting Max Q (Reply 17):
The 727 rear stairs have hydraulic 'arms' that lock over centre and these will support the Aircraft and prevent the nose rising.


I don't think an Air stair will be build to take the weight of a tipping without contributing to added damage to the mechanism.Its the function of a Tail support assembly.

Looking at your profile I do not see any qualification on the B727, do you even have any experience on the type ? !


Your thoughts 'hawk21' are only that and amount to pure speculation on your part. I flew this Aircraft for eight years and over 6000 hours. I suggest a little research next time before revealing your lack of knowledge !


The rear Airstairs on the B727, with the hydraulic arms locked over centre will prevent tail tipping, they are designed and certified as such and will certainly not 'contribute to mechanism damage'


If you ever have the privilege to examine them up close you will realise how rugged (like the rest of the Aircraft) they are.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
B727LVR
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:48 pm



Quoting Max Q (Reply 19):
If you ever have the privilege to examine them up close you will realise how rugged (like the rest of the Aircraft) they are.

Agreed.... The stairs on teh 727 are built like a tank, like the 27 itself. You can really tell the difference when running up the DC9/80 stairs. It feels/sounds like you are running on a tin can.
I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to planes!
 
boeing767mech
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:10 pm



Quoting Max Q (Reply 19):
If you ever have the privilege to examine them up close you will realise how rugged (like the rest of the Aircraft) they are.

25 pumps on the hand pump to retract the stairs, will no hydraulic pressure. Learn early in my brief 727 career. Pump up the actuator and then pull the handle.

Also you can tell how much they support the aft end when you have to lean into the hold open rods to get them to go over center and lock.

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
josekmlb
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:07 pm



Quoting Max Q (Reply 19):
The rear Airstairs on the B727, with the hydraulic arms locked over centre will prevent tail tipping, they are designed and certified as such and will certainly not 'contribute to mechanism damage'

That was the big thing with Delta they always said to lower the aft stairs before loading/offloading and fueling of the plane so the tail would not tip over.
 
sfotom
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:23 pm

I have worked very little on the DC9/ MD80 airframe and I have never worked for Delta. I do have some experience on the 727.

The 727 200 airstairs locked down to prevent tail tipping, the 727 100 did not (tail tip on the 100 was not as much a problem)

As 727 200 tail tipping was such a problem, I can easily see an established airline requiring rear stairs on all aircraft lowered at the gate including DC9/ MD80 aircraft in their General Practices & Procedures manual (or what ever Delta calls it) just to ensure that it was always done on the 27. I've seen many examples of airline procedures established because of one particular aircraft, and after that aircraft is long gone the procedures are still in place. The people that created the procedures are likewise retried and gone and no one still around is willing to take responsibility to remove a procedure they do not understand.

It could also be a standard practice for servicing efficiency that just wasn't made use of the day PWMRamper was watching.
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:24 am

I work for DL. I see MD88's at my station every night. The stairs are never down when get to the airplane. I don't know what ramps SOP's are, but I doubt putting down the aft stairs on the MD88 are one of them. If it is in the SOP, my ramp guys are not doing it.

I worked structures on MD88 HMV for many years and on the 727. The stairs on the 727 will prevent the plane from tipping on it's ass, it can be loaded so it will tip. The stairs on the MD80 can not. I don't think you can load the MD so that it will tip, but I'm not sure.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:55 am



Quoting Max Q (Reply 19):
I flew this Aircraft for eight years and over 6000 hours



Quoting Max Q (Reply 19):
The rear Airstairs on the B727, with the hydraulic arms locked over centre will prevent tail tipping, they are designed and certified as such and will certainly not 'contribute to mechanism damage'



Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 16):
Interesting because per Douglas MD-80 AMM 52-63-00-0 Par 2 B . "Warning: Do Not permit Extended aft strairway to support weight of aircraft. Tail jack should be installed when performing maintenance on aircraft to prevent injury to personnel or damage to aircraft." This is in big lettering and high lighted in red.

Agreed about B727 Experience.....but reply 16 is to be believed too.
cheers.
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
josekmlb
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:28 pm



Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 24):
I work for DL. I see MD88's at my station every night. The stairs are never down when get to the airplane. I don't know what ramps SOP's are, but I doubt putting down the aft stairs on the MD88 are one of them. If it is in the SOP, my ramp guys are not doing it.

Your guys should be putting down the aft stairs when the plane pulls into the gate just in case of emergency's. You rather have people getting out safely down the air stairs than having to deploy the aft cone and to hit a ramper or another jet that could be taxing by. I always see the stairs down at every station I go to unless the stairs are inop they should be down. And remember when the flight pulls into the gate the FAs disarm the door so if they do need to get out and open the door to see the stairs are up, they would have to close the door re arm it then deploy the cone and slide and that means time and more money spent.
 
boeing767mech
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:36 pm



Quoting JoseKMLB (Reply 26):

Your guys should be putting down the aft stairs when the plane pulls into the gate just in case of emergency's. You rather have people getting out safely down the air stairs than having to deploy the aft cone and to hit a ramper or another jet that could be taxing by.

SO before I go and tell my manager we are doing it all wrong, tell me how do you get the people out of a 707,737,747,757,767,777,787,DC-10/MD-11 or any other airplane without aft airstairs in an emergency?????? And every base I have been too the aft airstairs are only used if there is no stand to get up to the L1 door.

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
Max Q
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:09 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 25):


Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 16):
Interesting because per Douglas MD-80 AMM 52-63-00-0 Par 2 B . "Warning: Do Not permit Extended aft strairway to support weight of aircraft. Tail jack should be installed when performing maintenance on aircraft to prevent injury to personnel or damage to aircraft." This is in big lettering and high lighted in red.

Agreed about B727 Experience.....but reply 16 is to be believed too.
cheers.
regds
MEL.

Er, just to clarify, the B727 and the MD80 are two very different Aircraft, It's usually quite apparent. I know because I flew them both !


And it's true the -80 aft stairs are not designed to support the weight of the Aircraft. The stairs on the 727-200 most certainly are though..
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
josekmlb
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:43 pm



Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 27):
SO before I go and tell my manager we are doing it all wrong, tell me how do you get the people out of a 707,737,747,757,767,777,787,DC-10/MD-11 or any other airplane without aft airstairs in an emergency?????? And every base I have been too the aft airstairs are only used if there is no stand to get up to the L1 door.

David

So why do thy lower the stairs in ATL its not because its tail heavy or for cabin cleaning when they have trucks for cabin cleaning? Its just that plane has an exit in the back and its a means for escape in the back of the plane. In the other planes how do you think they get out? Use the galley doors and deploy the slide. We always lower the stairs ATL always lowers the stairs I seen the stairs down in MCO all the time. Just saying that its a means of escape and should be lowered at all stations but if not its fine just tell them that you rather see the tail cone go flying and deploy the slide.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:01 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 28):
Er, just to clarify, the B727 and the MD80 are two very different Aircraft, It's usually quite apparent. I know because I flew them both !

If you remember I was reverting to your accusation on my experience on the B727......Memory lapse I guess   

Quoting Max Q (Reply 28):
And it's true the -80 aft stairs are not designed to support the weight of the Aircraft. The stairs on the 727-200 most certainly are though..

Wasn't the topic about the MD80  

Just to add.....simplicity is something that is valued over time.....No need of yelling the house down about ones experience.let others do that for you.....Cheers.

regds
MEL.

[Edited 2009-09-06 02:04:41]
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:28 pm

I apologize it wasnt the GOM that said that, it was my former trainer. He was incorrectly informed as the GOM states that the stairs are not designed to carry the weight of the plane but the plane can tip if more than 3000lbs. is loaded in bins 5 & 6 without weight in any other bin.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
WNCrew
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:45 pm



Quoting JoseKMLB (Reply 29):

JoseKMBL with all due respect your reasoning is incorrect. Having the AFT stirs down has nothing to do with evacuation. I have been a FA for two carriers operating the MD80 this was NEVER mentioned.

Also, the AFT doors do not have to be armed to be deployed... it would take no time at all to deploy a tail-cone slide. The slide is always armed. Are you trained on the exit operation?

Keep in mind when at the gate the jetway or air-stair is considered sufficient means of egress for a plane-load of pax and should the need arise you've got other doors/exits to utilize well before using the tailcone.

I'm not sure where you got your information but it's simply not correct.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
josekmlb
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:38 pm

Well from DL ops they have always told us to put the stairs down right away when the plane comes in just in case of emergency's because they rather them come down the stairs than having to deploy the cone and slide. If we ever had to come up the aft stairs we always made sure that the door was never armed. But at every station I have been to I always see the stairs down on the mad dog, but on tonigts 88 I will ask the CAPT/FO when they do their walk around.
It could be at our station they want it that way, but from what I understand is that if they can avoid to deploy the tail cone that is how they would like it.
 
Max Q
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:53 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):

I don't think an Air stair will be build to take the weight of a tipping without contributing to added damage to the mechanism.Its the function of a Tail support assembly.

Your statement 'Hawk21' you do not specify an Aircraft type so best to not opine on those you know nothing about !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
WNCrew
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:28 am



Quoting JoseKMLB (Reply 33):
If we ever had to come up the aft stairs we always made sure that the door was never armed.

How would you check for that? The door is not really "armed" in the classical sense, there are simply TWO interior operating handles to choose from, one is connected to the tailcone jettison mechanism (and subsequent slide deployment) and the other simply opens the aft pressure-bukhead door providing access to the ventral stairs OR tailcone exit. When opening the tailcone door form the stairway there's no way to deploy the slide/tailcone as you don't have access to that operating handle and you can't pull down the catwalk from stairs as it's above your head.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
josekmlb
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:40 am



Quoting WNCrew (Reply 35):
How would you check for that?

The peep hole on the door if the flap on the back of the door is not covering the hole then the door is safe to open. If you see something blocking the hole that means the door is still armed. Thats on DL A/C I dont know which 80s you were on but for DL thats the way to check before you open the door.
 
boeing767mech
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:48 am



Quoting JoseKMLB (Reply 36):

The peep hole on the door if the flap on the back of the door is not covering the hole then the door is safe to open. If you see something blocking the hole that means the door is still armed. Thats on DL A/C I dont know which 80s you were on but for DL thats the way to check before you open the door.

If your walking up the airstairs that you have already dropped from the ground( and yes there is a way to drop them from the inside of the airplane, but you have to walk the catwalk and operate the valve with your foot) You have already disarmed the tailcone and because the catwalk is already in the stowed position, and disarmed the tailcone jettison with the door, you can still drop the tailcone with the drop handle outside the airplane

David
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josekmlb
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:07 pm



Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 37):

Yeah but we been told to make sure that the FAs put up the flap on the back of the door before we enter. I'm pretty sure you know what I'm talking about on the back of the door.
 
B727LVR
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:15 pm



Quoting JoseKMLB (Reply 38):
Yeah but we been told to make sure that the FAs put up the flap on the back of the door before we enter. I'm pretty sure you know what I'm talking about on the back of the door.

Yeah, just because you dropped the air stairs doesn't mean the tail cone jettison is automatically disarmed. I have seen the tailcone "jettison," basically just drop to the ground because someone got in a hurry. The tailcones may be light, but they still might leave bump on your noggin if they sneak up on you from the sky...
I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to planes!
 
josekmlb
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RE: Mad Dog Aft Stairs?

Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:13 pm



Quoting B727LVR (Reply 39):

Thats what I'm saying before we enter we have to make sure they are disarmed.

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