theengineer
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:56 pm

Hold Short Line Question

Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:36 am

The other day I was flying with a friend of mine and I have a question about an incident that we were debating about.

Before takeoff there was a Cessna in front of us holding short the active runway on an uncontrolled field. The pilot announced that he was going to use the active and depart and crossed the hold short line. Right after he crossed another plane announced that they were on final and the Cessna decided to wait for them as they were pretty close. My question is: Is there a violation in this incident? The Cessna had passed the line and was basically on the runway. However I have to say that the plane on final made no announcements before. They also could not make a 180 back because we and another planes were holding short.
 
mpdpilot
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:03 am

For the most part it is uncontrolled and there for there isn't so much violations that occur as there are pilots operating non-standard. There are pilots that will fly into uncontrolled airports without talking to anyone. I suppose if the FAA was watching and an unsafe situation occurred they could have the pilots go through retraining.

Doesn't sound like there was anything wrong with what happened. In fact probably the best thing that could have happened did, he waited. Imagine if both of them weren't talking to each other.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Hold Short Line Question

Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:00 am



Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 2):
There are pilots that will fly into uncontrolled airports without talking to anyone. I suppose if the FAA was watching and an unsafe situation occurred they could have the pilots go through retraining.

Why? There is no legal requirement to use a radio at an airport that is pilot controlled. People seem to always forget that. May not happen all the time, but there are aircraft out there that have no radio equipment in them.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
swiftski
Posts: 1837
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am

RE: Hold Short Line Question

Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:01 am



Quoting Theengineer (Thread starter):
hold short line

It's called a Hold Point, and once you pass it you are legally on the runway.

Quoting Theengineer (Thread starter):
My question is: Is there a violation in this incident?

Aircraft on final should have gone around. Runway occupied? Go around.

Quoting Theengineer (Thread starter):
They also could not make a 180 back because we and another planes were holding short.

?

By a "180 back" what do you mean? They can always go around, fly a circuit and land. Never would they turn 180 degrees around though.
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 2962
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: Hold Short Line Question

Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:03 am



Quoting Swiftski (Reply 5):

By a "180 back" what do you mean? They can always go around, fly a circuit and land. Never would they turn 180 degrees around though.

He's referring to the plane on the ground, which, had he not been right behind it, could've done a 180 back beyond the hold short line and off the active.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
swiftski
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Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am

RE: Hold Short Line Question

Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:14 am



Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 6):
He's referring to the plane on the ground, which, had he not been right behind it, could've done a 180 back beyond the hold short line and off the active.

Not come across that terminology before. I don't think it's official.

The wording below made me think he was still referring to the a/c on final.

Quoting Theengineer (Thread starter):
However I have to say that the plane on final made no announcements before. They also could not make a 180 back because we and another planes were holding short.

 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5005
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: Hold Short Line Question

Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:40 pm



Quoting Swiftski (Reply 5):
Not come across that terminology before. I don't think it's official.

I don't there's an official word for it, aside from "get off the runway."

Quote:

Main Entry: U-turn
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: about-face
Synonyms: U-ey, backtracking, change of heart, change of mind, change of plan, eating one's words, one-eighty, retraction, reversal, sea change, turnaround, volte-face

Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
A346Dude
Posts: 1161
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:16 pm

Why didn't the Cessna notice an airplane on short final? What if the plane on final was NORDO; this could have become an incident if the Cessna continued the takeoff and the plane on final was not paying attention. This is why you are supposed to do a visual check of the final approach path before heading onto the active - landing traffic always has the right of way.

Now I know it's possible to just miss things, so once the Cessna had passed the hold short line, once he became aware a plane was on final he should have "suggested" a go around to the plane on final while staying clear of the runway. This is the safest course of action IMO and as far as I know it's the only one that's legal.

[Edited 2009-11-22 06:18:27]
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3943
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:17 pm



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 7):
Why didn't the Cessna notice an airplane on short final?

Yet another excellent example of why I always turn on all exterior lights, to be seen better.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:31 pm



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 7):
What if the plane on final was NORDO; this could have become an incident if the Cessna continued the takeoff and the plane on final was not paying attention.

They key there is "not paying attention." If you're NORDO, you need to be extra careful because you know that you can't announce your intentions to anybody, you need to rely on your own vision and that of others. If a NORDO pilot ran into a plane taking off, fault would be shared, but the NORDO pilot certainly would have failed in his duty to stay clear.

Tom.
 
theengineer
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:56 pm

RE: Hold Short Line Question

Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:26 pm



Quoting Swiftski (Reply 5):
Not come across that terminology before. I don't think it's official.

The wording below made me think he was still referring to the a/c on final.

What terminolgoy?? I guess you guys in Australia use a different language.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 4):
He's referring to the plane on the ground, which, had he not been right behind it, could've done a 180 back beyond the hold short line and off the active.

Precisely
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:26 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 2):
There is no legal requirement to use a radio at an airport that is pilot controlled. People seem to always forget that. May not happen all the time, but there are aircraft out there that have no radio equipment in them.

Apparently, the airplane on final had enough of a radio to transmit his position once he saw the Cessna going onto the runway.

From the way the OP makes it sound, the aircraft did have a radio but neglected to use it until noticing that someone was on the runway. Unless there's some mitigating circumstance, that's just asking for trouble. It's not illegal, but it damn well should be. Just like a transponder - if you've got it, you've got to use it.

-Mir

[Edited 2009-11-22 17:17:51]
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
swiftski
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:03 am



Quoting THEENGINEER (Reply 10):
What terminolgoy?? I guess you guys in Australia use a different language.

The term "180 back" in aviation.
 
bond007
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:35 am



Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 2):
People seem to always forget that. May not happen all the time, but there are aircraft out there that have no radio equipment in them.

They forget it because in the 21st Century and a world where aviation safety is paramount, it's seems ridiculous that aircraft aren't required to use radios. Personally, I don't care if you're flying a WWI trainer ... if you can afford to fly it, you can afford to install a cheap, lightweight transceiver (even a handheld is better than nothing).

Uncontrolled airfields are truly the place to watch the worst procedures and airmanship. My personal view is to fly at an uncontrolled airfield as you would fly at a controlled field (within reason). If ATC wouldn't clear you to do something, then why think it's safe to do it at an uncontrolled field?

OK, venting over  Smile

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:50 am



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 13):
Uncontrolled airfields are truly the place to watch the worst procedures and airmanship. My personal view is to fly at an uncontrolled airfield as you would fly at a controlled field (within reason). If ATC wouldn't clear you to do something, then why think it's safe to do it at an uncontrolled field?

I much prefer flying at uncontrolled fields, as you don't have any ATC there to constantly be there to add a 3rd party to the situation. I'll trust my own two eyes, and my two ears, over some guy sipping on a cup of coffee any day. But, that said, there are a lot of dumb people out there.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
bond007
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:32 am



Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 14):
I'll trust my own two eyes, and my two ears, over some guy sipping on a cup of coffee any day

Well, you should be trusting your own two eyes and two ears, whether there is a controller in the tower or not. More crashes are caused by pilot error than controller error, and many a crash has been avoided by having ATC ... not that I don't enjoy uncontrolled fields, but let's not pretend that they're 'safer' because ATC are not involved (even though you might not had meant that).


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:36 am



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 15):
Well, you should be trusting your own two eyes and two ears, whether there is a controller in the tower or not. More crashes are caused by pilot error than controller error, and many a crash has been avoided by having ATC ... not that I don't enjoy uncontrolled fields, but let's not pretend that they're 'safer' because ATC are not involved (even though you might not had meant that).

Agreed, they aren't safer because there is no ATC. But, there is one fewer channel that communication that has to be gone through to make it known as to your location and intentions.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
A346Dude
Posts: 1161
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:57 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
It's not illegal, but it damn well should be. Just like a transponder - if you've got it, you've got to use it.

Somewhat off topic, but the transponder law is actually a terrible one. Nothing puts people off installing a transponder quite like knowing that once it's there, they will have to use it 100% of the time. This is a concern for gliders which require a battery to run the transponder and therefore may become restricted by having one installed. You always have to consider the unintended consequences.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
P3Orion
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:58 am



Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 14):
over some guy sipping on a cup of coffee any day.

You have no clue what controllers do. Do you.
I will have a Manhattan.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:08 am

Well the OP never mentioned how far past the HS line the other plane went but I'm assuming only a few feet, which at your average uncontrolled airport still probably gives you plenty of spacing. Had I been that pilot busting the HS line and still holding, I would've told the traffic on final that I was X number of feet past it but holding just as courtesy.

Quoting Theengineer (Thread starter):
My question is: Is there a violation in this incident?

Technically, yes. But at uncontrolled fields ehhh, you can fudge it a bit (not that you should)

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 1):

Doesn't sound like there was anything wrong with what happened. In fact probably the best thing that could have happened did, he waited. Imagine if both of them weren't talking to each other.

Agreed.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 14):
I much prefer flying at uncontrolled fields, as you don't have any ATC there to constantly be there to add a 3rd party to the situation

I understand your point but honestly I prefer controlled airports. I still am very alert at either type of airport but I've had too many bad experiences with retired wannabe Vietnam aces that think its real cute to just cut you off on base, hot dog it in on final, land halfway down the runway, making me go around, all without saying a word on the damned radio at uncontrolled fields.  banghead 
 
Mir
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Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:32 am



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 17):
Somewhat off topic, but the transponder law is actually a terrible one. Nothing puts people off installing a transponder quite like knowing that once it's there, they will have to use it 100% of the time. This is a concern for gliders which require a battery to run the transponder and therefore may become restricted by having one installed. You always have to consider the unintended consequences.

I'd be ok with some exceptions for aircraft not equipped with an electrical system.

But when your airplane is generating electricity, and you've got a radio - use the damn thing!

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 2152
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:37 am



Quoting P3Orion (Reply 18):

You have no clue what controllers do. Do you.

It was a joke, which clearly went over your head. I appreciate what you ATC folks do. But, like pilots, ATC make mistakes. And thus, I prefer to operate at uncontrolled airports.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
swiftski
Posts: 1837
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am

RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:40 am



Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 21):
But, like pilots, ATC make mistakes. And thus, I prefer to operate at uncontrolled airports.

Where, if you make a mistake, you don't have the help of ATC, who look out for you?
 
DAL7e7
Posts: 298
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:18 am



Quoting Swiftski (Reply 22):

Where, if you make a mistake, you don't have the help of ATC, who look out for you?

He's just stating his opinion...

I haven't had the opportunity to fly at a controlled field (AUO is uncontrolled) but I do think I prefer training at an uncontrolled field for the same reason DiamondFlyer prefers uncontrolled fields.


War Eagle!
Trey
DAL7e7 is wondering... Do pilots take crash courses?
 
bond007
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:34 pm



Quoting DAL7e7 (Reply 23):
I do think I prefer training at an uncontrolled field for the same reason DiamondFlyer prefers uncontrolled fields.

Do you really? Because "ATC make mistakes" ?
In all my years flying I don't think I can remember any pilot preferring uncontrolled fields because ATC make mistakes. It's usually because it's generally less hassle than a controlled field, and they find it easier because of less radio calls etc. ... of course, most of these advantages are due to the fact that generally low-traffic airports, by design, are uncontrolled ... if they were busy they'd have a tower. As for less radio calls - if you make the recommended radio calls at a non-towered airport, I'd argue you should actually make a lot more calls for a simple run around the pattern than if you were chatting with ATC. Of course, if you want to fly however you like and not worry about self-announcing, then sure, non-towered airports are much 'easier'!

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
B727LVR
Posts: 233
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:35 pm



Quoting Swiftski (Reply 12):
The term "180 back" in aviation.

What he was trying to say was: Make a 180 and backtrack.

I think that one is a bit more familiar....
I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to planes!
 
2H4
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:20 pm



Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 14):
I much prefer flying at uncontrolled fields, as you don't have any ATC there to constantly be there to add a 3rd party to the situation. I'll trust my own two eyes, and my two ears, over some guy sipping on a cup of coffee any day.

ATC isn't there to replace your efforts to stay safe. They're there to supplement them.  yes 

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:23 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 26):
ATC isn't there to replace your efforts to stay safe. They're there to supplement them.

Amen  checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
 
P3Orion
Posts: 377
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:21 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 26):
ATC isn't there to replace your efforts to stay safe. They're there to supplement them.   



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 27):
Amen        

Thank you. We're there to ensue you guys get in and get out without bumping in to each other. Not to usurp your command of the C172 you're flying.
I will have a Manhattan.
 
GST
Posts: 808
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:05 pm



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 17):

Somewhat off topic, but the transponder law is actually a terrible one. Nothing puts people off installing a transponder quite like knowing that once it's there, they will have to use it 100% of the time. This is a concern for gliders which require a battery to run the transponder and therefore may become restricted by having one installed. You always have to consider the unintended consequences.

Agreed, the mode-S transponders they are pushing on all aircraft over here at the moment (albeit with gliders having a semi-exemption for now) have a lot of functionality that has absolutely no relevance to gliding. If there were to be a mode-S "lite" made, with all of the irrelevant capability removed, and hopefully thus significantly lower power usage, I would probably support its use. Such a device would be much cheaper, and I could see it becoming like a flight logger (i.e. most clubs owning a couple to loan to pilots flying cross country in places where it is required, and competition pilots owning their own). Transponders such as this would probably be perfectly good for a 172 weekend flying also.

I only have experience flying at uncontrolled fields (gliding fields), but those that I fly at have an extremely pro-safety ethos (all pilots call the downwind, or risk a major bollocking), and there are strict rules about circuits with other aircraft simultaneously that cannot go around. Worst case you always have alternate fields picked out to divert. I couldn't really see gliders operating at controlled fields (though exceptions do spring to mind, i.e. Lasham, or the DG-505 that landed at Finningley earlier this year), as we are limited as to the instructions that we can take in a circuit, and you tend to get dozens returning and circuiting at once at the end of a day's competition task, or when the lift suddenly dies. I must make a pilgrimage to Lasham and see for myself incas eI change my opinions.
 
bri2k1
Posts: 952
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:15 pm

Personally, I like the extra set of eyes in the tower cab helping me spot traffic on final or in the pattern. I've never pulled onto a runway without looking first for myself though, even when departing IFR into IMC. If such a collision were to occur, the controller might share the responsibility, but you can believe the pilots involved would certainly be found at fault.

On the other hand, at a pilot-controlled (not uncontrolled, please) field, the pilots won't have anyone else to share blame with. I also like having a local in the tower to ask question of, like "where's a good place to do a run-up" or "where's a good place to get a burger?"
Position and hold
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 2152
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:18 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 26):
ATC isn't there to replace your efforts to stay safe. They're there to supplement them. yes

Totally agree with you there. That said, I think it basically comes down to a personal preference, which could ultimately be traced back to where you did your initial training. Personally, I did most of my initial training uncontrolled, and I've got no problems with it. But, I'm still somewhat apprehensive about flying in controlled airports. I don't purposly avoid controlled airports, but if there are to airports in a destination I'm looking to go to, I'll pick the smaller/pilot controlled field 9 times out of 10. Compare that to people I know who learn to fly at busy Class C airports, and they are deathly afraid of pilot-controlled fields.

Personally preference, nothing more, nothing less.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:19 pm



Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 30):
On the other hand, at a pilot-controlled (not uncontrolled, please) field,

Isn't the proper term "nontowered"?

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 30):
I also like having a local in the tower to ask question of, like "where's a good place to do a run-up" or "where's a good place to get a burger?"

Ann Arbor, Michigan, will give you score updates similar in fashion to "wind checks" when there's a home game in progress.  Big grin

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:29 am



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 32):
Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 30):
On the other hand, at a pilot-controlled (not uncontrolled, please) field,

Isn't the proper term "nontowered"?

"non-towered" would be correct, although tha FAA do use the term "uncontrolled airport" in some documents.

The only thing "pilot-controlled" would be the lights!


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
DAL7e7
Posts: 298
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:38 pm

RE: Hold Short Line Question

Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:13 pm



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 24):

Wow.. Bitter.

I actually prefer uncontrolled because "Auburn area traffic, Cessna 996RA is 3 miles southeast descending through 2,000, maneuvering for the 45 for the downwind runway 18, Auburn" is easier than "Auburn tower, Cessna 996RA is 3 miles southeast, to land" and the ensuing communications.


War Eagle!
Trey
DAL7e7 is wondering... Do pilots take crash courses?
 
bri2k1
Posts: 952
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:13 am

RE: Hold Short Line Question

Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:36 pm



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 33):
Quoting 2H4 (Reply 32):
Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 30):
On the other hand, at a pilot-controlled (not uncontrolled, please) field,

Isn't the proper term "nontowered"?

The only thing "pilot-controlled" would be the lights!

I believe it's an AOPA thing. They started discouraging the use of the term "uncontrolled" a few years ago because it's imperative that pilots at such a field understand they are solely responsible for the safety of operations. I defer to you for the "proper" terminology but I like using "pilot-controlled." You're right, the FAA will probably only officially use it for PCL.
Position and hold
 
bond007
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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Hold Short Line Question

Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:50 pm

Quoting DAL7e7 (Reply 34):
Wow.. Bitter.

Ummmm..no. Just stating some facts and some opinions. Nothing bitter. I simply stated that that's the first time I've heard a pilot say they prefer non-towered airports because ATC make mistakes at towered ones.

Quoting DAL7e7 (Reply 34):
I actually prefer uncontrolled because "Auburn area traffic, Cessna 996RA is 3 miles southeast descending through 2,000, maneuvering for the 45 for the downwind runway 18, Auburn" is easier than "Auburn tower, Cessna 996RA is 3 miles southeast, to land" and the ensuing communications.

I still don't quite understand why it's easier?
You already said twice as much, and hopefully you'll be reporting on each leg also ... perhaps not, and that's why it's easier?
ATC might just give you runway numbers and "cleared to land" ... done, and someone else is watching traffic as well as you!

edited to add: Just to let you know I have nothing against non-towered airports, or those that prefer them. I fly out of one almost every week and it works great. I did all of my training in/out of them and loved every second ... although did have some hair-raising 'incidents' caused by folks who didn't self-announce correctly ... my biggest pet peeve.

Jimbo

[Edited 2009-11-24 10:03:08 by bond007]
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Hold Short Line Question

Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:29 pm



Quoting DAL7e7 (Reply 34):
I actually prefer uncontrolled because "Auburn area traffic, Cessna 996RA is 3 miles southeast descending through 2,000, maneuvering for the 45 for the downwind runway 18, Auburn" is easier than "Auburn tower, Cessna 996RA is 3 miles southeast, to land" and the ensuing communications.

If you ever end up talking less at a non-towered airport than you do at a towered airport, something is wrong.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
AFGMEL
Posts: 190
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:03 pm

I spent most of my flying life at uncontrolled airfields. Some of them had towers that may or may not have been manned.

As for the OPs question, without doubt I would have gone around if on short final. On long final I would wait and see and see how quickly the departing aircraft took off.

I have no evidence that this was the case, but I have encountered some smart-arses that don't announce themselves so they can save a few bucks in landing fees.
B 727-44/200 732/3/4/8/9 767-3 742/3/4, 772/3, A319/20/21 332/333 342/3 , DC3/4/10, F28/50/100, ATR72
 
DAL7e7
Posts: 298
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:38 pm

RE: Hold Short Line Question

Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:00 am



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 36):
edited to add: Just to let you know I have nothing against non-towered airports, or those that prefer them. I fly out of one almost every week and it works great. I did all of my training in/out of them and loved every second ... although did have some hair-raising 'incidents' caused by folks who didn't self-announce correctly ... my biggest pet peeve.

I can relate. I've been cut-off on final a couple of times...

Quoting Mir (Reply 37):
If you ever end up talking less at a non-towered airport than you do at a towered airport, something is wrong.

-Mir

Never said anything about talking less, its just that I prefer to announce my position and learn situational awareness while working on my Private than just ask for permission and have someone tell me where all the traffic is.


War Eagle!
Trey
DAL7e7 is wondering... Do pilots take crash courses?
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Hold Short Line Question

Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:20 pm



Quoting DAL7e7 (Reply 39):
I can relate. I've been cut-off on final a couple of times...

Yes, and I can't remember ever being cut-off on final at an ATC towered airport ... I wonder why? I guarantee that the more you fly at towered airports, the more you'll realize that ATC make a LOT less mistakes than pilots do ... it's no coincidence that the busier airports have towers and the less busy don't ... the busy airports couldn't possibly operate safely without ATC. It's as simple as that.

Quoting DAL7e7 (Reply 39):
Never said anything about talking less, its just that I prefer to announce my position and learn situational awareness while working on my Private than just ask for permission and have someone tell me where all the traffic is.

Then perhaps you should have made that clear earlier in the thread, instead of saying it's 'easier' and it's because ATC make mistakes ... I would have held back a little on my remarks and opinions a little!

Personally, as a CFI for many years, I would rather teach (and learn) in an environment where folks weren't cutting me off, and not self-announcing ... as a student, that's not teaching you situational awareness, it's simply unsafe. I'm not implying that all non-towered airports are like that, but you already mentioned that as a student it's happened a couple of times ... When you are learning to fly you have enough stuff to think about, trust me.

My personal advice, is if you're learning at a non-towered airport, you should try and get as much practice talking to ATC as you can. I've encountered too many pilots that have 500hrs at non-towered airports, suddenly deciding they need to visit a busy Class C airport, and sound like morons, and are honestly not safe in that environment. It's a lot easier to transition to non-towered airports than vice versa.

Hey, good luck with the training, but don't necessarily assume it's 'better' because you're not talking to ATC ...  Wink


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
P3Orion
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Hold Short Line Question

Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:30 pm



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 40):
I've encountered too many pilots that have 500hrs at non-towered airports, suddenly deciding they need to visit a busy Class C airport, and sound like morons, and are honestly not safe in that environment.

Well said. You do not know how frustrating it is when a chatterbox checks in on freq.
I will have a Manhattan.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3943
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:31 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 40):
My personal advice, is if you're learning at a non-towered airport, you should try and get as much practice talking to ATC as you can. I've encountered too many pilots that have 500hrs at non-towered airports, suddenly deciding they need to visit a busy Class C airport, and sound like morons, and are honestly not safe in that environment. It's a lot easier to transition to non-towered airports than vice versa.

Excellent advise Jimbo, I only wish all CFI's taught this to all their students as well as handed them the mic and had the student do all the radio work. Teach the student to work with ATC early on in their flight training so they won't sound like morons especially when they get themselves into a "disoriented" or worse situation later in life and need ATC help.

Quoting Mir (Reply 37):
If you ever end up talking less at a non-towered airport than you do at a towered airport, something is wrong.

Non-towered fan better be constantly announcing their position.

[Edited 2009-11-25 06:32:25]
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7207
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:33 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 37):
If you ever end up talking less at a non-towered airport than you do at a towered airport, something is wrong.

Agreed.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 42):

Excellent advise Jimbo, I only wish all CFI's taught this to all their students as well as handed them the mic and had the student do all the radio work. Teach the student to work with ATC early on in their flight training so they won't sound like morons especially when they get themselves into a "disoriented" or worse situation later in life and need ATC help.

Here's the thing I've noticed, some students are just complete cowards when it comes to talking on the radio. I was one of the few exceptions. As a beginning student I WANTED to go to the controlled fields. In fact, the busier for me, the better. My instructor would suggest other non-controlled airports but I insisted in going to busier controlled places, a decision which he quickly began to appreciate. I never understood my fellow student pilots at the time, for all their cross country flights they would pick, IMO, boring uncontrolled little crap airports with no traffic whatsoever. I mean, heck,our base airport, PRC, is controlled and busy as hell at times. Why would they want to avoid that experience? How would they learn to talk elsewhere if they avoided controlled airports?

At any rate, my first solo cross country was down to Scottsdale, AZ. I was the only guy amongst my friends with a class B endorsement and my instructor had no reservations giving multiple class B endorsements for subsequent solos in the PHX class B. Listening to my scanner often while pretending to read back and flying to busy places really made me good at radio calls. Heck, many times (specially out by SoCal) I was the one that had to jump in for my instructor falling behind on the radios. My check pilots always complimented on my calls as well. Bottom line is: practice makes perfect  yes 

Nowadays who knows how my radio calls are like as I haven't touched a plane in over 6 months  banghead 
 
swiftski
Posts: 1837
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am

RE: Hold Short Line Question

Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:27 pm



Quoting DAL7e7 (Reply 23):
I haven't had the opportunity to fly at a controlled field (AUO is uncontrolled) but I do think I prefer training at an uncontrolled field for the same reason DiamondFlyer prefers uncontrolled fields.

How can you prefer it over something you haven't even tried?
 
DAL7e7
Posts: 298
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:38 pm



Quoting Swiftski (Reply 44):

If you'll read, I said I think I prefer, meaning that I've considered both ideas and I think I prefer flying at an uncontrolled.

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 43):

I do all the radio calls and I love talking on the radio. I feel like such a badass  Silly

War Eagle!
Trey
DAL7e7 is wondering... Do pilots take crash courses?
 
bond007
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RE: Hold Short Line Question

Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:44 pm



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 43):
Listening to my scanner often while pretending to read back and flying to busy places really made me good at radio calls. Heck, many times (specially out by SoCal) I was the one that had to jump in for my instructor falling behind on the radios. My check pilots always complimented on my calls as well.

Sounds exactly like my story  Smile

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7207
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: Hold Short Line Question

Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:12 pm



Quoting DAL7e7 (Reply 45):
I do all the radio calls and I love talking on the radio. I feel like such a badass



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 46):

Sounds exactly like my story

I'm sure controllers appreciate our type  bigthumbsup 

Some people just don't have the touch though. My best friend, with several more hours than myself, is one of them. He stutters constantly, misses calls frequently, and is dyslexic (a problem when learning to fly in an airport where the runways are 21 and 12  scared  ) . That's why when we fly together I handle the radios. Otherwise he's a good responsible pilot.
 
swiftski
Posts: 1837
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am

RE: Hold Short Line Question

Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:15 am



Quoting DAL7e7 (Reply 45):

If you'll read, I said I think I prefer, meaning that I've considered both ideas and I think I prefer flying at an uncontrolled.

If you (for whatever reason) feel like a "badass" on the radio then it's strange that you wouldn't want to fly at a controlled aerodrome where you actually have 'conversations' with someone.
 
GST
Posts: 808
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:27 am

RE: Hold Short Line Question

Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:22 am



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 43):
Here's the thing I've noticed, some students are just complete cowards when it comes to talking on the radio.

This used to describe me nicely. Nowadays I have no qualms, but I do occasionally get my trigraph confused, and mix up the Bellarena and Eglinton frequencies, but make sure it is sorted before any flight.

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