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Faro
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IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:46 am

At around 3:30 in the following vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ-gOFycJNE

an IL-76 is on final approach with a nose-down attitude of perhaps 10-15 degrees, aiming for the threshold. It also seems to be flying very, very slowly, like the propliners did on approach back before the jet age.

What is it with the IL-76 that makes it do this? All other jet planes typically have to maintain a nose-up attitude on approach. Or maybe this is an empty plane with almost nil fuel left. At any rate, the IL-76 seems to be quite over-winged to be able to approach like that. Can any other comparable jet aircraft do this?

Faro
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mandala499
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:32 pm

I'm more curious... do they know when the nose gear will make the first contact or the mains?  Smile

I guess it has 4 nosewheels for that reasons...  Smile
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GST
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:41 pm



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 1):
I'm more curious... do they know when the nose gear will make the first contact or the mains? Smile

Presumably they will know by looking at the pitch angle on the artificial horizon. Even so, it is strange to me that the gear would be made to land nose wheel first or main wheels first, seems unreasonably heavy as far as I can figure.
 
lowrider
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:32 pm



Quoting GST (Reply 2):
Even so, it is strange to me that the gear would be made to land nose wheel first or main wheels first,

I don't think that was intentional. The other ones I have seen have either 3 pointed or landed mains first.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:20 pm

Quoting Faro (Thread starter):
perhaps 10-15 degrees

More like 5 degrees, IF anything.

Quoting Faro (Thread starter):
What is it with the IL-76 that makes it do this?

You'll find that high wing STOL capable cargo aircraft (like the C-17, C5, etc) land much flatter, and sometimes as in the video with a steeper nose down attitude, than normal planes. This is mainly due to the large flap deflections used, which create enormous amounts of drag and increase the effective angle of attack, in order to compensate the airplane must be flow at a much lower pitch angle, among other factors.

Quoting GST (Reply 2):
Presumably they will know by looking at the pitch angle on the artificial horizon

The pilots have absolutely no reason to look at the attitude indicator if its VFR conditions, or even during IFR once they break out into. The only time they would be looking inside in a visual approach would be to check airspeed.

[Edited 2009-12-07 11:22:32]
 
474218
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:06 pm



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 4):
You'll find that high wing STOL capable cargo aircraft (like the C-17, C5, etc) land much flatter, and sometimes as in the video with a steeper nose down attitude, than normal planes.

Most high wing aircraft land with a nose down attitude and some actually climb out nose down. Also: Interesting choice of words "normal planes"?
 
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:26 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
Also: Interesting choice of words "normal planes"?

Uhm yeah poor choice of words actually lol

By normal I was referring to low wing transport category planes, or heck low winged planes in general.

Of course there are some exceptions. The CRJ 200 has a nose down approach due to lack of slats.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
and some actually climb out nose down.

True. The B-52 and the DH Caribou are some that come to mind.

Here's a good video on the Caribou.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7lRlpPbERo&feature=related
 
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:11 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
Most high wing aircraft land with a nose down attitude and some actually climb out nose down.

The B-52 famously flies nose down and taxies sidewise......
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Lemmy
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:26 pm



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 6):
DH Caribou ... comes to mind

Interesting. Is he holding the nose down right after liftoff just to keep it in ground effect? Looks to me like, once he gets enough speed, the nose comes up for the climb.
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:03 am



Quoting Lemmy (Reply 8):
Looks to me like, once he gets enough speed, the nose comes up for the climb.

If you see other videos of the caribou it does have a slight nose down attitude when level and with the flaps out. It's pretty noticeable in the B-52 as well.
 
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:07 am



Quoting Lemmy (Reply 8):
Looks to me like, once he gets enough speed, the nose comes up for the climb.

Hard to say for certain, but I think the nose comes up as the flaps retract. Bear in mind, pitch angle need not correspond to angle of attack. The wing could care less what the pitch attitude is, so long as the AOA requirements are satisfied.
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:12 am



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 6):
Here's a good video on the Caribou.

I'm sure you know, but the DHC-4 Caribou is a different (albeit similar) aircraft than the Buffalo. DHC-5 (or CC-115 in this case) as ahown in the video.


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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:29 am



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 11):

I'm sure you know, but the DHC-4 Caribou is a different (albeit similar) aircraft than the Buffalo.

Alas you're right! I didn't even catch that. It even said so in the video title. I initially searched for DH4s but then I clicked on that video without thinking much about it as it was showing in the "related" videos pane. Silly me.  dopey 
 
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:39 am



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 12):
I didn't even catch that.

You'd better brush up before the next round of "Identify This!"  Wink

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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:08 am



Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 7):
The B-52 famously flies nose down and taxies sidewise......

And sheds wings with its chocks on...

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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:11 pm



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 4):
You'll find that high wing STOL capable cargo aircraft (like the C-17, C5, etc) land much flatter, and sometimes as in the video with a steeper nose down attitude, than normal planes.

Hmm...wonder if there are any C-17/C-5 pics out there with a nose-down final approach, will have a look...

Just had a quick glance at the numbers though and I believe that the IL-76 does have something special. Depending on the model you take as reference, it has up to 33% less wing loading at MTOW than the C-17. That is no joke, and may well account for the dramatic nose-down final approach ability.

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474218
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:20 pm



Quoting Faro (Reply 15):
Hmm...wonder if there are any C-17/C-5 pics out there with a nose-down final approach, will have a look...

The C-5 and C-17 have leading edge slats, which allow for a more conventional attitude during landings and takeoffs.
 
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:02 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 16):
The C-5 and C-17 have leading edge slats, which allow for a more conventional attitude during landings and takeoffs

So does the IL-76, and I imagine that it can also do conventional landing attitudes. However, it can still approach nose-down. So far I have not found any pics of nose-down C-17 or C-5 landings (which doesn't mean they don't exist...).

Essentially, I think the IL-76 just has a huge, outsized wing for its weight category.

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2H4
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:07 pm

Does anyone know what the maximum flap setting is on the IL-76?

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Tiger119
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:41 am



Quoting Faro (Thread starter):
Faro

- Check the Saab in the video on Faro's link. It is around the 1:40 mark. I have flown in the 340 several times and a few times jump-seated (which in and of itself a neat trick). This looked like the 2000 though. Now, the times I watched this, when the Saab gets abeam the camera, it looks like the propeller stops on the number two. Roll it back a little bit it looks like when the P/F rotates the number two is still churning. Did Saab come up with a brake for the propeller axis to be used while churning? I know this is not a question about the Il-76 but it is a question that arose from watching the clip provided by Faro (the thread starter). Thanks,

Just Curious,

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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:18 am



Quoting Tiger119 (Reply 19):
Did Saab come up with a brake for the propeller axis to be used while churning? I know this is not a question about the Il-76 but it is a question that arose from watching the clip provided by Faro (the thread starter). Thanks,

Yes, on the RH prop. Not all SF340s have it installed and some have it deactivated.
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:44 pm

There is a video somewhere of a "tactical approach and landing" of a C-17 onto an unprepared strip where the final is about about 20* nose down. I've been trying to find it unsuccessfully online.

And though not a jet... it still about the only steep approach you will ever see for most people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1v4KZdTMyI
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:30 pm



Quoting Tiger119 (Reply 19):
This looked like the 2000 though.

It is.

Quoting Tiger119 (Reply 19):
Roll it back a little bit it looks like when the P/F rotates the number two is still churning.

Dunno what you're talking about. Neither prop stops at all at any point in the video. You're just seeing the profile of the blade as the plane's angle changes relative to the camera.

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 20):
Yes, on the RH prop. Not all SF340s have it installed and some have it deactivated.

May want to check the video again. It isn't showing a saab parked in hotel mode...
 
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:44 am



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 22):
May want to check the video again. It isn't showing a saab parked in hotel mode...

I wasn't looking at the video, just confirming that a prop brake was available on the SF340.
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Tiger119
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:10 am



Quoting Tiger119 (Reply 19):
looks like when the P/F rotates the number two is still churning

- I think I should have said "flared the number........."

David
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sovietjet
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RE: IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?

Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:41 am

This particular Il-76 in this video is the Il-76MF demonstrator and it is very obvious that it was filmed in Zhukovskiy. Therefore this was 99% taken at the MAKS airshow and the plane would have been very light for the perfomance flying. So a nose down approach based on the reasons given above is perfectly logical.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 18):
Does anyone know what the maximum flap setting is on the IL-76?

43degrees/41degrees(inboard/outboard)

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