skysurfer
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De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:12 pm

Howdy,

My mum just departed MAN to come see me in YYZ, and according to my brother he got a call saying the A/C was sitting on the runway (i'm more inclined to believe it was the taxiway), waiting for the wheels to be de-iced (as per cabin announcement). My question is: How common is it to have the wheels de-iced and what would the major problem be with having iced up wheels? Extra wear? Seizure? Sluggish acceleration and possible braking probs if an abort had to be executed?

Comments and answers appreciated as always

Cheers

Stu

ps, ship in question is a 757, should've been an A330
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pilotpip
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:14 pm

They probably misheard them saying wings. There is no reason to deice the wheels.
DMI
 
KELPkid
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:24 pm



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 1):
They probably misheard them saying wings. There is no reason to deice the wheels.

If you get water in the brakes, and then cool the wheels to below freezing, the wheels will be siezed. Happened to my car once (front wheel drive, rear disc brakes), while parked on the street during an ice storm  Wink

However, I am aware of no procedure one can use to de-ice aircraft wheels if this happens, other than wait for a thaw  Smile
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Mir
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:11 am

I remember hearing that you don't want to get de-ice fluid on the wheels, because it will eat away at the brakes. But maybe that only applies to certain types of fluid.

-Mir
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Dalmd88
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:46 am

I recall this happening to Metros and Be1900s when I worked in SYR many years ago. The pilots would taxi across a snowy ramp which would pack snow around the brake assy. It would melt on the hot brake and refreeze as the brake cooled down. I remember one night the pilots were taxiing from the gate to the hangar at the end of the day and locked up all four brakes as they were crossing the end of the active runway. Our Mtc ramp was straight ahead so they just powered it up and dragged it to a stop in front of the hangar. They blew all four mains. I then spend the rest of my shift changing them on our snowy ramp.

Usually when they froze up we would hit them with glycol. Was it approved? I highly doubt it. That long gone operation wasn't always conserned with approved methods only.
 
9VSIO
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:19 am

I've seen the wheels on a jetbridge get de-iced before though!
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HAWK21M
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:12 pm

What about warm air blowers.
regds
MEL.
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KELPkid
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:55 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6):
What about warm air blowers.
regds
MEL.

I suppose that might work. Something like this?

http://www.flameengineering.com/Engine_Preheaters.htm

 Smile

However, it is designed to blow hot air up the exhaust of a piston engine..., but I suppose you could just point the duct at the brake rotor/disc assembly.
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skysurfer
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:35 pm

Thanks for all the replies! Mum is still sticking with the A/C wheels being de-iced, but it turns out the plane was at the gate.....so i'm more inclined to believe the tug was having problems gaining traction on the ramp to push the flight back off the gate, meaning the ramp had to have some fluid sprayed on it. Sound more plausible? I guess we'll never know but i wanted to provide an update.

Thanks for taking the time

Cheers

Stu
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pilotpip
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:05 am

No, because that would just make a slushy mess with even less traction. Sand would be used in that case or perhaps urea.
DMI
 
dxing
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:46 am



Quoting Skysurfer (Reply 8):
so i'm more inclined to believe the tug was having problems gaining traction on the ramp to push the flight back off the gate, meaning the ramp had to have some fluid sprayed on it. Sound more plausible?

That's exactly what happened. Working on the ramp at CLE more than once I needed the de-ice truck to squirt around the wheels to unstick them after sitting all night long.

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 9):
No, because that would just make a slushy mess with even less traction. Sand would be used in that case or perhaps urea

Sand won't unstick the wheels if they've frozen in overnight.
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Bartonsayswhat
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:38 am

Maybe they were spraying the gear struts. If there is ice in there they might not come up / down properly. We have a tarp to cover the wheels / brakes when we do this.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:44 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 10):

Sand won't unstick the wheels if they've frozen in overnight.



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 9):
o, because that would just make a slushy mess with even less traction. Sand would be used in that case or perhaps urea

Sand is reccommended to create friction in Icing conditions for Ground movement.

I feel it was probably Hot steam blown over the brakes in case of Icing.

regds
MEL.
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flightmedic72
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:33 pm

November 27, 1970 - there was a DC 8 military charter (Capital Airways) crash here in ANC caused by the failure of the wheels to rotate due to icing with 46 fatalities.

The flight was being operated as a Military Airlift Command (MAC) contract flight from McChord Air Force Base in Tacoma, Washington, to Cam Ranh Bay, South Vietnam, with en route refueling stops at Anchorage and Yokota, Japan.

The investigation disclosed that the DC-8 failed to become airborne during the takeoff run and overran the end of the runway. It continued along the ground and struck a low wooden barrier, the instrument landing system (ILS) structure, and a 12-foot deep drainage ditch before coming to a stop approximately 3,400 feet beyond the end of the runway.

The DC-8 was destroyed in the intense ground fire which developed subsequent to the crash. There were 219 military passengers (including six dependents) and a crew of 10 aboard the aircraft. Forty-six passengers and one flight attendant were killed as a result of the post-crash fire.

At the time of takeoff, the airport was experiencing a very light freezing drizzle. The runway used by this flight (6R) was covered with ice and slush with braking action reported as fair to poor.

Following the accident, tire skid-marks, degraded rubber and shredded tire casings were found over most of the length of the runway.
 
dxing
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:34 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 12):
Sand is reccommended to create friction in Icing conditions for Ground movement.

First you have to have aircraft movement. As the OP said in a subsequent post, the aircraft was stuck at the gate. Sand doesn't do any good in that instance.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 12):
I feel it was probably Hot steam blown over the brakes in case of Icing.

The wheels at the point of contact with the ground get squirted with the hot water/deice mix. It doesn't take much and the plane gets free.
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HAWK21M
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Sat Dec 26, 2009 7:49 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 14):

First you have to have aircraft movement. As the OP said in a subsequent post, the aircraft was stuck at the gate. Sand doesn't do any good in that instance.

I was referring to use of sand to create friction during mvmt in icing conditions,it was a revert to the qoute above & not the OP.

Quoting DXing (Reply 14):

The wheels at the point of contact with the ground get squirted with the hot water/deice mix. It doesn't take much and the plane gets free.

Are you saying the Deicing fluid contacts the tires?

regds
MEL.....
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
dxing
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:44 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 15):
Are you saying the Deicing fluid contacts the tires?

Yes. The deicer shoots the area around the base of the tires. The hot mixture melts the ice that is sticking to the tires and assuming the pushback has traction the plane can move. Had to have that done on several occasions.
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HAWK21M
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:37 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 16):
Yes. The deicer shoots the area around the base of the tires. The hot mixture melts the ice that is sticking to the tires and assuming the pushback has traction the plane can move. Had to have that done on several occasions.

Any adverse effect from the Deice fluid on the tire?
regds
MEL...
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
71Zulu
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:09 pm

I've seen the Just Planes video of the Alaska 737-200 and in one of the deicing scenes, they spray the fluid all over the nose wheel and ski. This was one of the planes with the gravel kit. Don't remember seeing them spray the mains so maybe just something to do with the retraction of the ski/deflector on that plane.
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dxing
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:06 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 17):
Any adverse effect from the Deice fluid on the tire?

Nope. 50/50 mix. The ramp is covered with snow so by the end of the push the mix on the tires is even less than that.
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WESTERN737800
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:44 pm

I had to put a Beech 99 in the hangar a while back. They were plowing snow on the taxiways, the aircraft had to taxi through some 1ft. drifts, it sat outside for a few hours. The brakes froze up. I poured some alcohol on them, kicked the tires numerous times and it was still froze. I got some non heated type 1 and poured it on the brakes, kicked the tires more and it still didn't want to move. I did some gentle back and fourth motion with the tug and it finally broke loose. There's nothing worse than froze brakes.
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Venus6971
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:27 pm

Just use the air off the air start cart, its plenty warm and melts and blows away ice, use on to deice LJ-35's and King Airs. The snow blowers on deicier trucks are the same thing. Rather just have warm blown on brakes and tires than ethyl glycol.
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HAWK21M
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:28 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 19):

Nope. 50/50 mix.

I was wondering if the fluid would weaken the tire rubber life.
regds
MEL.
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Viscount724
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:23 am

The following excerpt from a recent Transport Canada incident report involving a Beech 1900 that landed with frozen brakes on the left side resulting in two flat tires, says the carrier's aircraft are equipped with a brake de-icing system. How does such a system work? Does it involve heat or de-icing fluid? The temperature in Edmonton on the day in question (December 7) was very cold, around -30C, and around -15C at the destination.

Central Mountain Air (CMA) Beech 1900D operating CMA Flight 793, IFR Edmonton (CYEG) to Fort St. John (CYXJ), left side main landing gear wheels were frozen. Failure of deicing equipment is presumed. Aircraft landed with left side wheels locked. Was able to bring aircraft to a safe stop 300 ft past hold line for runway 02/20, resulting in both tires flat. Passengers were taken to terminal by vehicle and local technicians began working on removing the aircraft from runway (14:10). Winds did not cause issues in using runway 02/20, so aircraft was able to stay on runway until CMA technicians were able to arrive with equipment to lift aircraft and fix wheels/brakes (17:45). Aircraft was repaired and was able to taxi back to ramp (20:35). Plane departed for YVR around 21:30.
UPDATE: The operator suspects frozen brakes as the aircraft departed Edmonton International Airport during conditions of blowing snow. Company aircraft are equipped with brake de-ice systems. There was no damage to the aircraft other than the tires.
UPDATE: A P-Memo was issued to company flight crews to emphasize the importance of using brake de-ice systems when conditions warrant (Beech SOP 1.14.19 refers).
 
freeze3192
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:59 pm



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):
The following excerpt from a recent Transport Canada incident report involving a Beech 1900 that landed with frozen brakes on the left side resulting in two flat tires, says the carrier's aircraft are equipped with a brake de-icing system. How does such a system work? Does it involve heat or de-icing fluid? The temperature in Edmonton on the day in question (December 7) was very cold, around -30C, and around -15C at the destination.

My knowledge is limited, but hot bleed air from the engines is blown onto the brakes to deice them after being up at altitude.


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Photo © Felix Bahamonde - PR Planespotters



You can kind of see the brake deice lines in this photo. They are the orange lines that come down the back of the landing gear strut.

It was the best picture I could find. Maybe someone else could find a better one.
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SP90
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:47 pm

I recently flew into Denver during the Christmas holiday. When we arrived at the gate I saw a truck pull up next to our aircraft and I noticed it said Gear Deicer on the side. Does anyone know how this truck work?

 
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HAWK21M
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:40 am



Quoting SP90 (Reply 25):
Does anyone know how this truck work?

http://premier-deicers.com/after_market.php?cat=gear_deicers
The company above has similiar equipment.

regds
MEL.
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musang
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:44 am

We used to operate Avro RJs to a compacted snow covered airfield in Norway called Dagali. Braking effectiveness was achieved by the spraying of heated sand on the runway, tested until the required braking coefficient (as dictated by our landing weight) was met.

The warmed tyres used to settle into the surface on the ramp, and typically 70% thrust was needed to move off.

musang
 
cvg2lga
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:46 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 22):
I was wondering if the fluid would weaken the tire rubber life.

I don't know for sure that it does or doesn't but they do taxi in and out of the deice pads through type1 and type4 all the time during appropriate weather.

*Planes can become frozen to the ground easily while RON and need a little wet warmth to get them moving in the am sometimes.

Tchau

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seabosdca
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:38 am

Quoting Skysurfer (Reply 8):
o i'm more inclined to believe the tug was having problems gaining traction on the ramp to push the flight back off the gate, meaning the ramp had to have some fluid sprayed on it. Sound more plausible?

I once experienced a one-hour delay on an AS 738 in BOS that occurred because the tug couldn't get traction. It was eventually solved by some rampers with shovels clearing a short path in front of the tug's tires, followed by the most violent pushback I've ever experienced. So I'd believe it.
 
rduoodl
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:45 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 22):
I was wondering if the fluid would weaken the tire rubber life

Our De-/Anti-Icing manual says the fluid can weaken the tire rubber life, but is just part of game when trying to unfreeze the aircraft from the ramp. The minimal damage to the tire is considered normal wear and tear. A direct spray pattern should never be directed at the tires, just around them.

When an aircraft parks at a gate that is covered in snow the heat from the brakes melts the snow below it. On a normal turn, the water does not have much of a chance to refreeze. Overnight the brakes will cool quickly and the snow will freeze as an ice block around and between the tires.
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HAWK21M
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:13 pm

Quoting RDUOODL (Reply 30):

Our De-/Anti-Icing manual says the fluid can weaken the tire rubber life, but is just part of game when trying to unfreeze the aircraft from the ramp.

What prevents Tire condition weakening in service then.Will the Scheduled Mx be lowered in hrs.
regds
MEL.
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YWG
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:15 am

Quoting Skysurfer (Thread starter):
he A/C was sitting on the runway (i'm more inclined to believe it was the taxiway), waiting for the wheels to be de-iced (as per cabin announcement). My question is: How common is it to have the wheels de-iced and what would the major problem be with having iced up wheels?

The plane was probably frozen to the ground.

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 4):
I recall this happening to Metros and Be1900s when I worked in SYR many years ago. The pilots would taxi across a snowy ramp which would pack snow around the brake assy. It would melt on the hot brake and refreeze as the brake cooled down. I remember one night the pilots were taxiing from the gate to the hangar at the end of the day and locked up all four brakes as they were crossing the end of the active runway. Our Mtc ramp was straight ahead so they just powered it up and dragged it to a stop in front of the hangar. They blew all four mains. I then spend the rest of my shift changing them on our snowy ramp.

Usually when they froze up we would hit them with glycol. Was it approved? I highly doubt it. That long gone operation wasn't always conserned with approved methods only.

Metros and 1900s have an inherent problem with icing and landing gear.
1)The main gear sits next to a nice warm engine all flight long, so when you park on a snowy ramp it melts the snow around it and eventually freezes to the ground. This can be solved with glycol or rocking back and forth from reverse to forward on the powers.
2) The breaks tend to collect a lot of snow, which once again melts and seizes the breaks. There is a danger to this. Say the breaks are frozen, and Mr. Jr Captain powers out of his parking spot on a slippery surface all the way to the runway creating immense friction. He doesn't realize the breaks are frozen because the ramp is icy so no real resistance exists. Buddy takes off and retracts these two, overheated sets of tires into the gear wells, which is right next to the oil and hydraulic lines. A small gear fire starts and is only made worse by the engine oil and hydraulic fluid lines pissing fuel all over the fire. They say you have about 6 minutes to live from the fire warning light until you crash. This is all the more complicated by a loss of hydraulics and a loss of the effected engine too.
3) These aircraft were never meant to fly into ice and cold. The Up-lock rollers on all three gear have a tendency to freeze in the up and locked position if they are covered in snow. 99% of the time it's the nose gear rollers because there is no engine up there keeping it warm. This can be usually be solved with the checklist, but 1/100 times it results in a forced belly up landing.

Quoting Freeze3192 (Reply 24):
My knowledge is limited, but hot bleed air from the engines is blown onto the brakes to deice them after being up at altitude.

Not entirely positive on the beech series, but I sort of doubt it. The gear sits next to a nice warm engine all flight, so taking bleed air would probably be overkill. Not to mention bleed air and rubber don't really mix well. I think what you're looking at is just a protective cover for the break lines and squat switches on the gear.
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rduoodl
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:25 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 31):
What prevents Tire condition weakening in service then.Will the Scheduled Mx be lowered in hrs.

Tire changes are just completed as needed. Not really on a schedule.
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intsim
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RE: De-Icing Aircraft Wheels

Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:57 pm

I was working a 733 from SLC that had the left outer main frozen and dragging on arrival to gate. The weather in SLC was heavy snow/slush. The tire did not burst during landing or taxi. The Captain instructed me to drizzle hot glycol onto the brake system.

Does this cause any adverse affects to the aircraft/brakes?

Jeff

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