kimon
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Some Questions about Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:48 pm

Hello Everyone,
What is this?
Is is this standard on all flightdecks?
Does anyone have pictures?
Many many thanks.
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Fabo
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Some Questions about Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:11 pm

I have ran a search about this thingy last week, and it came off pretty well (Here in Tech/Ops). Basically, it is a barber pole thingy that, provided you have your takeoff runways localizer dialed, should guide you on keeping the centerline. The lines, it being barber pole, are moving in some way telling you in which direction to correct. It has been used for ex. on Tridents and is still present on some planes, I think there were some 757s mentioned and maybe SQ 747s.
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Tristarsteve
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Some Questions about Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:13 pm

It was introduced on the Hs Trident for BEA for Cat3B autolands and lo viz takeoffs. It is a little rod that rotates in front of each pilot. It is very intuitive and if you follow it you follow the centreline. It is driven by the localiser, and only used on the ground. It has been fitted to all BEA and BA aircraft since, but I don't think anyone else has it?
 
kimon
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Some Questions about Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:24 pm

Sounds like a good idea!
Why are not not all aircraft equiped with it?
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tdscanuck
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Some Questions about Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:57 am



Quoting Kimon (Reply 3):
Sounds like a good idea!
Why are not not all aircraft equiped with it?

That's like asking why aren't all aircraft equipped with autoland...lots of them don't need it.

The function that PVD provides is on most autoland aircraft, it's just not done with the barber pole thingy. You can get rollout guidance from a localizer display, the PFD, the HUD, possibly on the synthetic vision systems on many GA aircraft, etc.

Tom.
 
411A
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Some Questions about Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:23 am

PVD's were originally developed in the USA by the Collins Radio Corporation, and test flown on several aircraft, for both airbourne and ground use.
One was fitted to a Gulfstream One aircraft that was owned by the radio/television personality, Arthur Godfrey.

Further demand in the USA was not anticiapted, and the project was cancelled by Collins, for civil use.

If I recall correctly, the PVD's used on BEA/BA aircraft were originally developed by Smiths International....the same folks that designed the triplex autoland system used on the HS.121 Trident.
BA TriStar aircraft were also fitted with PVD's.
Worked very well, in service.
 
kimon
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Some Questions about Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:30 am

Qouting CX flyboy:

I do not know a lot about the PVD as none of Cathay's aircraft have them fitted. They are an option on certain airliners and an option Cathay has elected not to buy. As far as I know, it is a simple instrument showing the localizer signal relative to the aircraft position and used to identify that an aircraft has lined up on the correct runway by ensuring that the localizer signal of the ILS for that runway makes the instrument line up in the middle. Essentially it is a long strip and the localizer signal is a line on the strip. If the localizer is to the left of the strip it means the localizer is to the left of the aircraft and vice versa. If the aircraft is lined up on the correct runway then the strip should be in the middle.

All aircraft have the ability to tune the ILS and have it display on the PFD (Primary Flight Display - for modern aircraft) or on other instruments for older generation aircraft. I do not actualy see a need for a PVD other than the fact it is in your face more...but if you do a correct job of checking whether you are on the correct runway before you add thrust to depart, you can do this with the ILS instrumentation or the PVD. In SQ006's case, they used neither, even though the PVD would have been right infront of them staring them in the face.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Catha...ays/Boeing-747-467(BCF)/1448902/L/

In this photo you can see the Cathay 747-400 cockpit. On the left hand side on top of the coming there is a magazine laying there. Just to the right of the magazine, built into the combing is a strip painted brown left to right. This is where the PVD would go, had Cathay opted for the option. The PVD slot is repeated on the First Officer's side.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Singa...Airlines/Boeing-747-412/1189126/L/

Now look at the singapore airlines 747. You can see the brown strip is replaced by an actual instrument although it is not very clear in the photo. This is where the PVD is.
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mandala499
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Some Questions about Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:15 pm



Quoting Kimon (Reply 3):
Sounds like a good idea!
Why are not not all aircraft equiped with it?

Costs... not just in price, but it's another thing to maintain and monitor for the engineers... hence, running costs too (even if negligeable).

Additional costs for no additional value doesn't run well with the bean counters at the head office.

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Tristarsteve
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Some Questions about Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:33 pm

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 4):
You can get rollout guidance from a localizer display, the PFD, the HUD,

I believe the main reason for the PVD on the Trident was low visibility take offs. It was much more sensitive than a localiser display, and being on the glareshield you could see it while looking fwd.
You must remember that when the Trident was designed in the early 60s, it was foggy at LHR. In those days of Cat nothing, the airport was closed in November for days at a time. Then the British Government banned the use of coal in household fires (we started using coke instead) and the smog (smoke-fog) that blanketed London for days on end slowly disappeared. When the Trident Cat3 was finally in use, its reason for development had faded away.
I remember the choking yellow smog in around 1963. I had to walk along the kerbside with a torch wjile my dad drove behind me. I was there to make sure he didn't drive into a parked car. You don't see fog like that nowadays.
Anyway in the fog, with PVD, the Tridents were taking off from LHR when noone else was moving. They didn't need PVD for landing as they had full autoland with rollout steering (rudder channel).

The BEA/BA crews liked the PVD so much they fitted it to the BAC111, B757 B767 Tristar and B747 as well. It was a tiny little unit, and provided much safety on low viz take offs.

[Edited 2010-01-16 07:36:36]
 
tdscanuck
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Some Questions about Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:44 pm



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 8):
I believe the main reason for the PVD on the Trident was low visibility take offs. It was much more sensitive than a localiser display, and being on the glareshield you could see it while looking fwd.

I suspect this function has been fully supplanted by the HUD today, which provides all these benefits plus at lot more other useful information.

Tom.
 
kimon
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Some Questions about Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:48 pm

Tom,
You hit the nail on the head!
HUD is the king!
Kimon
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HAWK21M
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Some Questions about Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:40 am

Got this thru Email:-

The PVD instrument guides the pilot along the runway centreline during roll-out in poor visibility.

Guidance is provided by vertical white and black strips, which move to the left or right, according to the deviation from runway centreline.

The display uses liquid crystal and is within the pilot's field of view when looking outside. It is connected to the flight guidance system and to the flight warning computer of the aircraft, or equivalent sources. The system comprises the autoland warning and the picture generator.

regds
MEL.
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kimon
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:36 pm

PVD in action:
Download this http://www.asc.gov.tw/asc_en/downfil...=/asc_en/../downfile/SQ006_ENG.pdf
and go to page 182.
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Faro
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:22 pm

IIRC, all Airbus aircraft have it under the denomination "Runway" lateral guidance mode, little pole thingy that moves about at the bottom of the PFD on takeoff (and maybe rollout too).

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kimon
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:16 pm

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kimon
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:13 pm

Will PVD cease to exist and be supplanted by HUD?
I guess that PVD will no longer be available as optional on the 748?
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kimon
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:02 am

FYI:All BA aircraft have PVD.
Even on 773-ER.
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kimon
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:03 pm

Has anyone ever seen PVD on an Airbus?
The para-visual display has been developed as optional equipment for the A320. Mounted on the glareshield, the instrument guides the pilot along the runway centreline during roll-out in poor visibility. Guidance is provided by vertical white and black strips, which move to the left or right, according to the deviation from runway centreline.The display uses liquid crystal and is within the pilot's field of view when looking outside. It is connected to the flight guidance system and to the flight warning computer of the aircraft, or equivalent sources. The system comprises the autoland warning and the picture generator.
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kimon
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:24 pm

Since all BA aircraft are equipped with PVD,the RVR minimum is 75 meters as opposed to others (non-PVD) which is 125 metres.

[Edited 2010-02-24 09:28:51]
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kimon
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:46 pm

The PVD requires the ILS for the take-off runway to be on and tuned. It will then give left/right corrections about the runway/ILS centreline. It follows that if the aircraft is not on the correct runway the PVD will not unshutter as the corrections are accurately given about the ILS centreline and not outside the narrow ILS beam.
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Fabo
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:08 pm

What the hell are you trolling about here, now via PMs too?
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mandala499
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:54 pm

Quoting Fabo (Reply 20):
What the hell are you trolling about here, now via PMs too?

LOL, U got that too???
Kimon, what's the point? why with the PMs too? We can read well and clearly over here in the forum.
No, I do not have any pictures or diagrams on the PVD's schematic... and I wonder why you seem to be obsessed witht he PVDs????

Mandala499
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kimon
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:17 pm

The four airlines which are PVD equipped are:BA,LH,SQ and QF.
If it were so useless,why did the above-mentioned bother having it?
Just multiply the cost of each PVD unit per total combined of the four fleets comes to nearly $1m!
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mandala499
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:35 pm

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 2):
It was introduced on the Hs Trident for BEA for Cat3B autolands and lo viz takeoffs.

Just read that PVD was required for Cat3b landings on the Tristars...

Quoting kimon (Reply 18):
Since all BA aircraft are equipped with PVD,the RVR minimum is 75 meters as opposed to others (non-PVD) which is 125 metres.
Incorrect. Current types in service with PVDs are: 744, 777, 763ER with the 744s I think the only one that have the PVDs on both sides, the 767s and 777s only have it on captain's side. The A32Xs, 757s and the 737s don't have the PVDs... and when they had the Concorde, it didn't have the PVD.

Quoting kimon (Reply 22):
If it were so useless,why did the above-mentioned bother having it?

Who said it was useless? It comes down the cost-benefit analysis, probably for many airlines the PVD's cost benefit analysis is so marginal or negative they decided not to use it...

Let me elaborate on my reply #7:
An airline limited to Cat I ILS conditions for landing would have little benefit for the PVD... but airlines that have a lot of ops into airports that are prone to have Cat III conditions, may result in them better off having the PVD. Hence:

Quoting kimon (Reply 22):
The four airlines which are PVD equipped are:BA,LH,SQ and QF.

We can see that there are very few takers for the PVD in the world.
Qantas only has it on the 744s (not on their 742s/743s/74SPs), and the exBA 763 (I think they're deactivated on these). The original QF 767s don't have the PVDs, neither does any of their 737s (-300/400/800s, with the 800s having the HUD).

Lufthansa only has it on the 744s. They had them on the 340s, but had them taken out/removed by the time the A346 entered service. The A319s and A321 don't have them, yet, the 320s seems to have had them early on. All but the 744s, had the PVDs on the left side only it seems, when it was still fitted.

SQ only has it on the 744 passenger versions. None on the other types, including the 744Freighters.

So, very useful? I don't think so as the airlines that use them only has it on certain types.

Why have it?
Well, look at where the aircraft that have them operate? QF/BA/LH/SQ has it on their 744s... for good reason, the last thing they wanted when they had their 744s new, they didn't want to suffer from weather delays in Cat III conditions. Again, crew scheduling is a big reason for this as the 744 routes put them on the limits of the 2 crew duty limits.

BA can justify all their widebodies having the PVDs because their base, LHR, is extremely busy, and by the time they would arrive in LHR on a bad day, the alternates are probably already full. And any weather advantage they can get, is worth a lot of money for the company.

Qantas and SQ, only their 744s have the PVDs... I guess long haul ops into Europe has something to di with that... not surprising it's not fitted on the other aircraft... By the time the 380s arrived, they decided it was not worth having it on the 380 (perhaps an HUD was better to have).

For LH, again, why only the 320 on the narrowbody? Well, the 320 was the first Airbus narrowbody they operated, maybe they just wanted to try... it's not fitted on the 319s/321s. For the 744, again, same reason as stated for BA.... the last thing they want is crew scheduling nightmare because the viz is 100m instead of 125 (so the 75m minimum is useful). For the narrowbody, well, if the weather is so bad, chances are you're not going to get anywhere because the next destination is probably fog-bound too... plus, whilst a no big deal, why go out in less than landing minimums? You'll end up having to divert if something goes wrong after V1.

Again, for the narrowbody, I guess costs of keeping all the crew on Cat III (which is where the PVD would be useful for various reasons), just cost too much money.

But then... is it useless? No... if it was, they'd be phased out by now even by BA.

Qantas only has it on their 744s... and ex-BA 763s (the -336ERs).
767-338ER without PVD

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Charlie W Carter (EGTESkyGod)



767-336ER exBA with PVD slots (no info whether it's used or not)

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Photo © Dmytro Myrnyy



LH A343 with PVD left side only?

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Photo © Daniel Werner



And without:

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Photo © Viktor Laszlo - Budapest Aviation Photography



A342 with PVD left side only?

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Photo © Konstantin von Wedelstaedt



On the 777s in BA, the PVD is left side only.

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Photo © Tamas Kolos-Lakatos



Mandala499
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kimon
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:04 pm

Thanks,Mandala499!
Excellent research!
Just one burning question:which aircraft have HUD which would finally supplant PVD once and for all?

[Edited 2010-03-08 13:19:00]
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tdscanuck
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:41 am

Quoting kimon (Reply 24):
Just one burning question:which aircraft have HUD which would finally supplant PVD once and for all?

HUD doesn't necessarily supplant PVD...it all depends on what functions are implemented on the HUD.

That said, HUD's are an option on 737 and standard on 787. Also available on many biz jets, although I can't generate an exhaustive list. I have no idea about HUD on Airbii.

Tom.
 
mandala499
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:20 am

Quoting kimon (Reply 24):
Excellent research!

Since you mentioned the airlines, just go to the photo search engine, and look in the flightdeck photo category for the airlines and search for it and voila! It's not excellent research, it's cheap research   

So, is it useful? yes...
Is it needed? no...

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 25):
I have no idea about HUD on Airbii.

Yes it's available on them... though I've hardly seen them being fitted... but the photos are in a.net too.

Mandala499
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b78710
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:28 am

some of our 744's have them, some don't, so i'm guessing there isn't an SOP for them to be used
 
kimon
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:42 pm

Are you with VT or BA?
VT do not have PVD at all.
744F or PAX?
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Pihero
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:45 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 25):
HUD doesn't necessarily supplant PVD...it all depends on what functions are implemented on the HUD.

And that's the problem.
As far as I know, there is no HUD with a "Ground director", the picture is of the centerline and it's position relative to the aircraft. Go get it is the maneuver required.
On the other hand, the PVD is in fact a flight director indisguise as it gives you the quickest/smoothest path to get the centerline and keep it. Very useful during Low Vis takeoffs(especially with an engine failure) and after a CatIIIb autoland.
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b78710
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:03 pm

Quoting kimon (Reply 28):
Are you with VT or BA?

neither

Quoting kimon (Reply 28):
744F or PAX?

passenger
 
kimon
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:02 pm

All BA 744 and 773 are PVD equipped.
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mandala499
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:01 am

Quoting kimon (Reply 28):
Are you with VT or BA?

Here's something to keep you occupied:
CX has provisions on their 744s for PVD, but the pics on a.net have yet to show one in use/active. (covered).
Air Pacific has it on theirs... ex SQ jets...
Air Atlanta Icelandic has it on their ex SQ jets (even the ones served Iberia)
World Cargo, and BlueSky has it as per CX (it has the hole, but its plugged up)
MH 744s and Former MH 744s would have it (-4H6s), as per CX.
South African's 747-444s have the PVDs...

Quoting kimon (Reply 31):
All BA 744 and 773 are PVD equipped.

Why are you repeating yourself again and again?
We know the 744s, 777s (200 and 300) and 767s in BA have the PVDs... *yawn*

We know how it works, so why do you keep posting links on how it works? This part you never answered Kimon...
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Faro
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:24 am

A little confusion re Airbus's "Runway" lateral guidance mode on take-off: is this or is this not a PVD even if it's only shown on the PFD? Is it of the same order of accuracy as a PVD?

Faro
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kimon
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:20 am

Thanks,Mandala499!
I shall start digging up the photos of the various airlines you mentioned.
Just one point:my BA 773 captain confirims that PVD is on both sides on BA 773.
I had a doubt so I asked.
Your forebearance appreciated as always.
Have you actually used PVD?
As for CX,CX flyboy confirms that CX have de-activated PVD and never ever been used by CX and have "inoperative" notes pasted all over as CX are tighter than a duck's posterior.

[Edited 2010-03-10 03:23:01]

[Edited 2010-03-10 03:24:06]

[Edited 2010-03-10 03:26:55]
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mandala499
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:11 pm

Quoting kimon (Reply 35):
Have you actually used PVD?

Yes, but not for regular passenger transport. Where I used PVD was however, not in regular passenger transport flying. We had custom made PVDs. It was for special missions purposes where we had LEDs mounted at eye level, 3 rows of LEDs, 1 row showing where we are along a "centerline", and the other 2 moves in the direction one is supposed to go to maintain the centerline (it's track/drift based) similar to the barberpole display. The problem we had the stuff broke down so often we're better off putting in a mini display similar to an HSI/ADI merged display, and shove that in front of the pilot's face whenever he needs to use it... Since we used it for enroute, the regulators didn't care... The other problem was the pilot flying often misread the PVD and ended up diverging instead of converging. 200Hz position updating wasn't the problem, it was the graphical presentation... in the end, the combined extra ADI/HSI won the day. We had lateral and vertical deviation indications (where the PVD we had only showed lateral)... much better for our needs. In the end, we even took the display unit off because it didn't produce the benefit we wanted, so we inop-ed the stuff and reverted to verbal lateral and vertical guidance    and that gave us better results... somehow... What we thought was a good idea, in our case, in the end, it turned out to be a hazard.

Sorry, no pics, dug up my old files but can't find it...

Since there are no Low-Viz Ops where I am, it won't help much and it's not needed. Heck, most of the pilots here never received Cat II ILS training, coz it's never used here! With very few airports with runway centerline lightning, again, the benefits PVD brings will not yield significant benefits... we're still with the 400m RVR/Viz take off minima. Given than the airports here are only Cat I ILS at best, again, a lot of the times, we'd rather wait till we get Cat I minima or better before we take off for short flights... Due to legal liability reasons, a lot of the airports here just close down instead of going LV Ops even for take offs.

I'll cross check with my friends at MH to see why they ended up plugging off their PVDs on the 744s.

Quoting kimon (Reply 35):
Just one point:my BA 773 captain confirims that PVD is on both sides on BA 773.

I am not surprised as the 773s will perform many of the functions of BA's 744s... I do wonder if BA will end up with dual-side PVDs on the rest of their 777s.

BA, is unique in a way as it is probably the only carrier that has PVDs on all of their widebodies, again, local conditions on weather and frequent occurence of LVOps probably dictate the justification of fitting these things.

Mandala499
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kimon
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:50 pm

Excellent!Wow most impressed with your customised PVD!
This is what they should have updated it to include a vertical indicator!
BA are the greatest fans of PVD as well as being the first to ever have them.
Have you noticed that there are absolutely no photos of BA 744 FDs nor 773?
I get a feeling that BA are strict with tresspassers!
Did Concorde have PVD as well as on AF?
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mandala499
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:12 pm

Quoting kimon (Reply 37):
Excellent!Wow most impressed with your customised PVD!
This is what they should have updated it to include a vertical indicator!

Our PVDs did NOT have vertical indication... one of the reason why we switched to the portable eye-level display unit was to have the vertical indication... but, in the end we took it all off.

The PVDs in airliners don't have vertical indicator, the question is, where to put it? If you want the vertical indications as well, you are better off with an HUD.

Quoting kimon (Reply 37):
BA are the greatest fans of PVD as well as being the first to ever have them.
Have you noticed that there are absolutely no photos of BA 744 FDs nor 773?
I get a feeling that BA are strict with tresspassers!
Did Concorde have PVD as well as on AF?

Go and search a.net's photos... you'll find no PVDs on BA's Concordes...
BA's flight deck photos are available on this site, and you'll see a few 747-436 flight deck photos....
How hard would it be? "All Aircraft", "British Airways", "Flight Deck", and voila...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
mandala499
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:25 pm

You'll also notice BA's older A320-211s with CFM engines have the PVD left side, the IAE engined A320-232s, don't nor the A319s/321s don't have PVDs either...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
kimon
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:26 pm

Sorry,I could not find any BA 773 FD photos.
Thanks for the BA 744.
I noticed that on MH and CX that the PVDs have been removed and their slots inserted with a some sort of snap-ins.
They really have a grudge!
Dum Romae consulitur, Saguntum expugnatur
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:37 am

Quoting kimon (Reply 40):
Sorry,I could not find any BA 773 FD photos.

That's because British Airways only has 777-200's.
http://active.boeing.com/commercial/...ageid=m25062&RequestTimeout=100000

Tom.
 
mandala499
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:27 am

Yeah, they've ordered the 773ERs, but not yet delivered...   

Anyone know when they're being delivered?
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
kimon
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:39 am

Did not realize that they had no 773!!
How backward of them!
No self-respecting fleet can be without 773!
Well spotted!
This is simply because of their slavish grovelling to RR and will only want RR-power out of nationalistic pride over technological advancement.
Ok,does the 772LR have GMCS?
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mandala499
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:03 pm

Quoting kimon (Reply 43):
This is simply because of their slavish grovelling to RR and will only want RR-power out of nationalistic pride over technological advancement.

Actually, BA has operated non-RR powered aircraft in the past....
Their 772s consist of non-RR powered (GE-powered examples).
Their old 320s (the -100s and the -211s) are CFM powered... and their newer A319/320/321 aren't strictly RR powered, but IAE powered (RR & PW joint venture)
Their 737 Classics are CFM powered, and the 732 before that was PW powered.
The 741 they had years back were PW JT9D powered.

And there's more to BA's preference for RR powered aircraft than just nationalistic pride... RB-211 engines (RB211 and Trents) are 3 spooled engines, which has certain advantages and disadvantages.

Quoting kimon (Reply 43):
No self-respecting fleet can be without 773!

Go and tell that to the non-773ER operators... they'll gladly show you how they think of the above opinion...   
I guess you call Lufthansa, most of not all the US mega-carriers, into the "not self-respecting fleet" category...   
A self-respecting fleet, is one that operates the right aircraft for its needs...

Mandala499
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kimon
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:49 pm

Touché, Mandala499!
AF has 30 773s and 12 on order.
I think one day BA will disappear as the vultures are already circling.
Long gone are the halcyon days of Lord King!
I like when fleets follow form rather than function which gives them panaché and in this case AF is an all-rounder.
You can sense that AF reflects France more than BA does for UK.
It is a pity that the UK killed off all their aviation manufacturing.
Dum Romae consulitur, Saguntum expugnatur
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:30 am

Quoting kimon (Reply 43):
No self-respecting fleet can be without 773!

Um...what?

Quoting kimon (Reply 43):
This is simply because of their slavish grovelling to RR and will only want RR-power out of nationalistic pride over technological advancement.

RR is pretty much on technology par with GE. Better in some things, worse in others (as is usually the case in aviation).

Quoting kimon (Reply 43):
Ok,does the 772LR have GMCS?

I don't think so...why would it need it? It's not that long.

Quoting kimon (Reply 45):
I think one day BA will disappear as the vultures are already circling.

Who would take it's place? Britain is more than large enough to have a nationally-based carrier and I don't see EasyJet jumping into BA's worldwide network.

Quoting kimon (Reply 45):
It is a pity that the UK killed off all their aviation manufacturing.

Where are all the RR engines and Airbus wings coming from, to say nothing of their oodles of avionics suppliers.

Tom.
 
mandala499
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:16 am

Quoting kimon (Reply 45):
You can sense that AF reflects France more than BA does for UK.

AF has been trying over the past 30 years to make CDG on par as hub with LHR... with AMS and FRA joining the fray, but LHR is still there as a desired hub to go to... with BA still dominating in UK's top hub LHR, BA still reflects the UK airline industry. Ryanair, Easyjet and other LCCs have been attacking those Euro-Hubs with relative success, but we know it's far from the vultures circling waiting for a carcass to stop breathing... and you're saying this why? Because it has no 773 yet?

Perhaps you want to look into why it doesn't have the 773ERs yet. You talk about prestige? Well, being a launch customer is part prestige, and part taking a risk, BA got reasonably burnt launching new types in the past, it has decided that it doesn't need the risk associated with the prestige of being a launch customer for anything anymore... and return to common business sense.

You need a lot to learn about the industry beyond your rhetoric Kimon.

Quoting kimon (Reply 45):
It is a pity that the UK killed off all their aviation manufacturing.

Killed off??? It's thriving!
BAe still churns out fighters of good quality.
Westland (with Agusta) is churning out a lot of Helicopters, including the UK-modified WAH-64 Apache.
Shorts of Belfast is now part of Bombardier, and churns out 737NG rudders, as well as other parts.
Rolls Royce still makes a lot of top class engines (sole Engine provider on A345/6, leading engine on 772ER and 773, it provides the only non-Joint-Venture engine brand for the A380, and its engines from the 50s are still running well (like RR Dart, Speys)). Just because it didn't participate as a risk-sharing partner for the 772LR and 773ER, doesn't mean it's bad), and its still co-makes the #2 engines for the A320 family, the IAE V2500-A5.
It is far from killed off, sure, apart from Rolls Royce, there ain't any top British brands in the airliner assembly/construction, but, the non-assembly/construction industry (ie: outside Airbus and Boeing), is HUGE.

And I fail to see what all this rhetoric has got to do with the PVD? You were falling for BA as your dream airline and it all changed because... it doesn't have the 773ER yet? *shakes head in disbelief*

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 46):
I don't think so...why would it need it? It's not that long.

Wait, don't say that, he might slag off the 772LR because it doesn't have the GMCS...   

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:26 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 46):
I don't think so...why would it need it? It's not that long.

Actually the most useful function of the GMCS is not to help with taxying, but when on the bay just prior to pushback to see whether you have a tug, to see how many pallets are still to be loaded, whether they are nearly closing up the cargo doors and whether the airbridges have moved away yet after the doors have been shut. None of that is visible from the flightdeck unless you are parked in front of a terminal with reflective glass. All that stuff is extremely nice to see when you are sitting there waiting with no feedback as to whether they have been completed or not!! Helps when calling ATC for clearance or pushback when you know that there will be a delay with clearance or the plane next to you is about to push and you want to beat them, or perhaps you are trying to beat a certain plane out so that you can get the altitude you want first! We often comment when flying the 772 how nice it would be to have a GMCS and that it should be fitted to every airliner!
 
Chamonix
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RE: Some Questions About Para-Visual Displays (PVD)

Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:56 am

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