c5load
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How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:36 am

Obviously, they are not normal, but how often do they occur? I know that without flaps or slats, you have to add probably 50-60 knots to your landing speed, so how safe would this be? If you are landing at an airport that has a short runway, but would normally be a non-issue with slats-flaps, would you have to divert to someplace that has a much longer runway, so you don't kill your T/Rs and brakes trying to slow down from 210-230kts?
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411A
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:05 am

The short answer is...not very often.
In 35 years of professional flying with large jet aircraft, I have only had to land with no flaps/LED's...once.
And yes, if the destination has a short runway, diversion is often necessary in the no flaps/LED situation.
Something to keep in mind if one works for an airline who is determined to carry minimal diversion fuel, as a matter of standard policy.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:27 am



Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter):
would you have to divert to someplace that has a much longer runway, so you don't kill your T/Rs and brakes trying to slow down from 210-230kts?

You'd divert because you can't safely stop on the available runway; the T/R's don't care at all and the brakes are expendable in a situation like that.

Tom.
 
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tb727
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:50 am

I've done it 3 times. Once in a thin wing Lear 24 on an SIC 12 month ride off a VOR circle, that was a fun surprise. Another on my Falcon 20 type ride again off a circle and I gave a Captain upgrade student one on a training flight once into DOV because it was long.

I haven't done them because I had to thankfully. On the Falcon you add 20 knots to Ref and add 25% to landing distance. The Lear I am pretty sure you add 50 knots to Ref so you are getting close to max tire speed at times in those.
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Maverick623
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:26 am



Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter):
Obviously, they are not normal, but how often do they occur?

From a microscopic, anecdotal point of view, in the last 3 years I've seen 2 in PHX, both on CR9s.

Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter):
so you don't kill your T/Rs and brakes trying to slow down from 210-230kts?

At that speed you'd be more worried about max tire speed. Thrust reversers really don't have any problems and brakes can be easily replaced.

A diversion will be warranted based on whether or not the airplane can stop in the amount of runway available, as well as CFR capabilities.
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HAWK21M
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:21 am



Quoting 411A (Reply 1):
In 35 years of professional flying with large jet aircraft, I have only had to land with no flaps/LED's...once.

Was that an abnormal situation to warrant a no Flaps/LED attempt.
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saab2000
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:48 pm

In the CRJ-200 they happen with alarming frequency. The flap mechanism is notoriously unreliable and failures are not uncommon, though there have been measures put into place and the number of flap failures this winter (it's largely a winter issue) has been reduced greatly.

That's the bad news.

The good news is that it's not that big a deal. Landing speeds and distances are increased but that's really about it. It is calculated and then the pilots land on the appropriate runway. In the CR2 it's really more of an annoyance than a legitimate safety problem.
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411A
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:34 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 5):
Was that an abnormal situation to warrant a no Flaps/LED attempt.

Yes, flaps/slats would not extend on an L1011...an extremely rare occurance.
Vref then becomes Vref+50.
At heavier landing weights, 9,000 feet minimum runway length is required.
Otherwise, not a particular problem...except for hot brakes.
 
roseflyer
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:12 am

Tire speeds are usually designed to be 1mph above a zero flap landing at Maximum Landing Weight. If they aren't designed that way, they it is a bad design from the manufacturer. Sometimes problems happen after takeoff, so it is the goal to be able to come back for a landing.
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XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:27 am



Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 6):
In the CRJ-200 they happen with alarming frequency. The flap mechanism is notoriously unreliable and failures are not uncommon, though there have been measures put into place and the number of flap failures this winter (it's largely a winter issue) has been reduced greatly.

That's the bad news.

The good news is that it's not that big a deal. Landing speeds and distances are increased but that's really about it. It is calculated and then the pilots land on the appropriate runway. In the CR2 it's really more of an annoyance than a legitimate safety problem.

Yep! I did 3 in 3 years. It was kinda nice coming down final actually nose up for once, too.

Speed was typically in the mid 170's.
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arffdude
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:07 pm

We usually have one every few months at my small airport, usually on CRJ2s. Not too big of a deal, we roll the trucks as a precaution, but with over 6,500' of runway, it's never been an issue.
 
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:25 pm

So would a no flap landing only happen in case of a flap system failure or are there other reasons for carrying one out?
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ROSWELL41
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:54 pm

As others have said, it happens literally every day with CRJ-200's given the amount flying worldwide. Not a big deal usually.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:04 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
So would a no flap landing only happen in case of a flap system failure or are there other reasons for carrying one out?

No reason other than system failure.
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Bellerophon
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:30 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
So would a no flap landing only happen in case of a flap system failure or are there other reasons for carrying one out?



Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 13):
No reason other than system failure.

Unless your four-engined passenger jet didn't have any flaps or slats fitted in the first place!

No-flap landings - done hundreds of them!  Wink  Wink

Happy MLK Day

Bellerophon
 
concordegboad
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:43 am



Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 14):
Unless your four-engined passenger jet didn't have any flaps or slats fitted in the first place!

No-flap landings - done hundreds of them!    

Happy MLK Day

Bellerophon

I see what you did there!  Smile
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:43 pm



Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 14):
Unless your four-engined passenger jet didn't have any flaps or slats fitted in the first place!

No-flap landings - done hundreds of them!

Happy MLK Day

Bellerophon

No fair! You always win when you play that card.  Big grin
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Bellerophon
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:10 pm



Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 16):
No fair! You always win when you play that card.

Yes, sorry,  Embarrassment , I promise not to play it again for at least a week! Big grin

I wish I could have said "thousands" but sadly it was only "hundreds".

Best Regards

Bellerophon
 
comorin
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:33 pm



Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 17):
wish I could have said "thousands" but sadly it was only "hundreds"

Too bad your majestic steed flew off into the sunset! Lament not, my friend, the Gods will return Pegasus to you...  Wink
 
kimon
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:25 pm

UAL 811 had no flaps just inboards.
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Laddie
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:19 am



Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter):
Obviously, they are not normal, but how often do they occur?

Every time I fly my Stearman. Big grin

Oh, wait, are you talking about jets?
 
kimon
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:39 am

Was this is a non-flap landing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-ZYPbtQfwI
F- WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET MORE ONCE THIS SPLIT - STOPS THE OUTBOARDS WE AND OLD: Guangzhou - Baiyun (CAN / ZGGG) (closed), China">CAN GET THE INBOARDS
F- OKAY NOW WE'VE GOT FLAPS FIVE ON THE INBOARDS AND A SPLIT ON THE OUTBOARDS
-F- OKAY THE INBOARDS ARE COMING TO TEN
F- NOW SPEED'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE THE STALL WARNING INDICATOR'S ON THE INBOARDS
YOU'RE OKAY YOU'RE AH YOU'VE GOT TEN FLAPS THAT SHOULD BE ONE SEVENTY BUT THE INBOARDS ARE UP AH THE OUTBOARDS ARE UP SO - TWO HUNDRED ONE NINETY'S PROBABLY GOOD SPEED -
C- CENTER THE TRIM CENTER THE TRIM
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cvr890224.htm
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XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:12 am



Quoting Kimon (Reply 21):
F- OKAY NOW WE'VE GOT FLAPS FIVE ON THE INBOARDS AND A SPLIT ON THE OUTBOARDS
-F- OKAY THE INBOARDS ARE COMING TO TEN

As you can see what you typed.... "flaps 5...and then flaps 10." Looks like it was a split on the outboards and the inboards were functioning at least somewhat normally.

In my opinion, a split flap situation is much more serious than a no flap.
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kimon
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:16 am



Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 22):
split flap situation is much more serious than a no flap.

That is precisely why Captain Cronin is the greatest of all pilots who handled the most impossible of situatons.
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2H4
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:35 pm



Quoting Laddie (Reply 20):
Every time I fly my Stearman

Which engine do you have?
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Malmi18
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:05 am

Yesterday I came on board Blue 1 Avro 146JR from Zurich to Helsinki and we had a flapless landing.

Everything was normal until the point where you'd normally extend slats/flaps (the type has no slats in the first place). Then we made a go-around. I thought there was another plane on the runway, but soon after the captain said we have a problem with the flaps and we'll fix it in a few minutes. Then after appr 15 minutes holding he said that we'll start another approach. The speed would be a bit higher but the EFHK runway would be enough, he said it was checked twice. He also mentioned this would be a normal landing (no emergency landing) but there woud be fire trucks just as a precaution.

The touchdown point was clearly further than normal along the runway, I guess it is due to the lower drag and slower deceleration in flare. Touchdown was very smooth, then braking with wheel brakes (I think there's no thrust reverser in the type). There was some runway unused but surprisingly little in fact, considering this was a small plane (of course there may have been much potential for even heavier braking, should that have been necessary).

Then we taxied to the stand along with the firetrucks and that was it. When I got off I noticed also that the ground near the main gears was wet from something so maybe they had sprayed some water on the brakes.

There were a few spotters at EFHK so it'll be interesting to see if any piccies appear here in a few days.

Cheers,

Malmi18
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:51 am

Quoting Malmi18 (Reply 25):
braking with wheel brakes (I think there's no thrust reverser in the type)

It does not. Wheel brakes are way more effective that thrust reversers anyway. Also there is a massively effective speed brake in the tail.


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babybus
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:30 pm

Once I was on a BA 737-200 and we landed with no flaps in BCN. Have no idea why.

Been on lots of flapless take-offs.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
474218
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:30 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 7):
Yes, flaps/slats would not extend on an L1011...an extremely rare occurance.

In my 32 years on the L-1011 program I can't remember a "no flap/no slat" landing! Lots of "no flap" landing and many "no slat" landings but never had both fail at the same time.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?

Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:34 pm

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 13):

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
So would a no flap landing only happen in case of a flap system failure or are there other reasons for carrying one out?

No reason other than system failure.

In November 1987, a Beech 1900C crashed on approach to Homer, AK. The aircraft was loaded 6 to 8 inches aft of the C.G. limit. In the accident report, the NTSB stated:

THERE WAS EVIDENCE THE CREW
LOST CONTROL OF THE ACFT AS THE FLAPS WERE LOWERED. THE RGT FLAP ACTUATOR WAS AT THE 7 TO 12 DEG POSITION. THE STABILIZER TRIM WAS
FND AT THE FULL NOSE DOWN POSITION. FLT TESTS SHOWED THERE WOULD BE NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFICULTY IN CONTROLLING THE ACFT WITH UP TO 1.5' OF
ICE ON THE LEADING EDGES & THAT STATIC STABILITY WOULD DETERIORATE DRG FLAP EXTN WITH THE AFT CG CONFIGURATION.

The NTSB concluded that the aircraft could have been successfully landed if the flaps had not been extended.

A few years later, I recalled this accident and the NTSB's recommendation during a line check when the Captain reported that she had run out of elevator trim and her arms were tiring.

We discussed the accident in Homer and elected to perform a flaps up landing.

After landing, we computed the actual C.G. to have been aft of the limit. The departure station had incorrectly computed the cargo load and neither the Captain or I had observed the loading. If we had, it would have been obvious that the aircraft could not have been within limits.
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