kimon
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:04 pm

Does anyone know why it needs a 6-crew?
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tdscanuck
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:37 pm



Quoting Kimon (Thread starter):
Does anyone know why it needs a 6-crew?

Pilot + copilot (self explanatory)
2 flight engineers (6 engines + complex systems)
Navigator (self explanatory)

That's 5...the 6th I've found listed various as "communications specialist", which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, or "loadmaster," which makes a lot of sense.

Tom.
 
kimon
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:55 pm

Great,Tom!
Have you ever seen one?
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Starlionblue
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:25 am

My guess is that the reason for the commo guy is that the pilots probably don't speak English well. He handles ATC comms.

To expand on the navigator, the An-225 often flies non "standard" routes and goes all over the place. Navigator is a good idea. I saw a show on Antonov flight services. The dispatchers typically start route planning with a globe and a piece of string. A lot of missions are "all new" and have to be figured out from scratch, as it were.
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Fabo
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:30 am

Starlionblue: I guess that at Antonov, guys flying the An-225 know English well enough. Still, this is just the way its done in the east. If there is not a specific comm guy, navigator often takes care of radios. It is simply a way how 4+ men cockpit works.
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KELPkid
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:14 am

Don't forget that Soviet philosophy was to gainfully employ as many as possible, (and this even extended all the way down to flight crews) so systems automation wasn't very much in favor when the AN-225 and AN-124 were designed...  twocents 
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tdscanuck
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:26 am



Quoting Kimon (Reply 2):
Have you ever seen one?

Sort of. One attended the Abbotsford Airshow back in 1989 when I was just youngster; I didn't go to the airshow that year, but I could see the approach route from my parents' house and I saw it flying in. It looked *big* even from many miles away.

Tom.
 
pmk
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:18 am



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 6):
One attended the Abbotsford Airshow back in 1989 ...

If you have seen one, you have seen them all.

I saw it at LAS, watched it take off from my shop on the other side of Russell Road. Looked like it was standing still when it took off. It's so large the size hides the speed.

PMK
 
OV735
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:59 pm

The radio officer is responsible for air-to-ground communication with ATC - it's a tradition of the Soviet/Russian air force. The position used to exist on some civilian types as well, like the Tu-104/114/124 and Il-18/62. Western operators usually bypassed that, leaving comms for the pilots or navigator to handle.

I have no doubt that the An-225 could in reality operate with 3 cockpit crew instead of 6 (2 pilots + 1 F/E). Still, the certification requirements are kept in place in Russia and satellites, so you'll see 3-crew even in the glass-cockpit Il-96 and the fly-by-wire Tu-204.
 
alwaysontherun
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:28 pm



Quoting Pmk (Reply 7):
If you have seen one, you have seen them all.

Although I am aware that this a common phrase, technically this is not correct: one is still "being build"..........supposedly. Although that project suffers from delays somewhat, and the A-350, Y3, Boeing 797, 7-10-7 and 7-11-7 will probably hit the skies before this baby will.

Quoting Pmk (Reply 7):
It's so large the size hides the speed.

It does, strange that an F-16 seems to take off faster than an A-380 for instance, while they could be doing exactly the same speed!

That always gives away remote controlled planes in them Youtube videos.
Some look very realistic, especially from a distance on a runway nicely done.......
I have seen a great A-380, B-747 and some brilliant Antanovs etc.
But the moment it takes off the sudden movements gives it away............

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HAWK21M
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:30 pm



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 1):
2 flight engineers (6 engines + complex systems)

Are they both working simultaneously......why.With today technology its surprising.

I'm just thinking about the number of crew for the loading  Smile

regds
MEL.
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kimon
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:35 pm

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tdscanuck
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:01 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 10):
Are they both working simultaneously......why.With today technology its surprising.

Two major reasons: the AN-225 is not running on today's technology, and it was never a design goal for them to automate the flight engineer out of the cockpit. The plane is 20 years old, and the Russians weren't holding even with the West on flight deck automation back then. However, even if they had the technology, they had no real motivation to do so; the AN-225 was never built for the commercial environment and the concurrent pressures on crew operating costs that that entails.

Tom.
 
kimon
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:24 pm

Tom,
Do you know why the opted for an ugly high-wing and weird tails?
You are right that Soviet or FSU thinking about aviation is very different to ours.
Kimon
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larshjort
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:35 pm



Quoting Kimon (Reply 13):
Tom,
Do you know why the opted for an ugly high-wing and weird tails?
You are right that Soviet or FSU thinking about aviation is very different to ours.
Kimon

High wing to limit damage to wings and engines when taking of from gravel strips and the twin tail is because it was sdesigned to carry the Buran space shuttleso they opted twin vertical stabilizer to clear them of the turbolence.
As for the general layout it was just a upgraded An-124 to keep the cost low.
/Lars
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Fabo
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:08 pm

Well, it can sit basically centimeters from ground as high-wing. Makes loading hell of a lot easier. This aint no container hauler, remember.
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kimon
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:22 pm

The AN-225 should have been converted to a pax version.
Maybe they could have competed against the A380?
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Starlionblue
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:34 pm



Quoting Kimon (Reply 16):
The AN-225 should have been converted to a pax version.
Maybe they could have competed against the A380?

Inefficient as a pax aircraft. The configuration makes it heavy compared to an A380. Also it exceeds the 80x80 meter box allowed by most airports for pax operations. You couldn't get it to most gates and it would have a hard time taxiing in many places. This is not a (big) problem for an outsize cargo hauler, but a pax aircraft needs to be agile.
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larshjort
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:15 am

Does anyone have any information about wheel loadings? A few years ago it was in Denmark with AAL / Transport Wing Aalborg as main airport but it was decided that the runway wasn't strong enough. They then wanted to use KRP / Helikopter Wing Karup which have several times had visits from C-5/An-124's but the runway wasn't strong enough there either so they ended up cutting down some tall trees so they could use Fighter Wing Skrydstrup.

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tdscanuck
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:36 am



Quoting Kimon (Reply 16):
Maybe they could have competed against the A380?

Very very unlikely. In addition to the size issue, and the fact that, at that time, the Russians were not competitive on technology or automation in the commercial field, they've got a severe configuration problem. There are good reasons that essentially all large passenger jets are low-wing and all large cargo jets are high-wing. Making one do the other's job is bound to be sub-optimal.

The AN-225 is very good for its specific mission...it's just a niche mission that doesn't have a huge amount of demand.

Tom.
 
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HAWK21M
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:24 am

Looking at the craft.The tremendous load encountered by the Wing root is amazing,considering the Wheels are below the fuselage only.
Any idea how frequent are the area inspections at the Wing to body attachments on this type?

regds
MEL...
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kimon
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:59 pm

AN-225:Does anyone have a photo of the flight deck?
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sovietjet
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:50 pm

The twin tails were designed because the plane was supposed to carry Buran and other components in "piggyback" configuration. The tails were made this way to avoid the wake that would be left behind by the external cargo.
 
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747classic
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:06 pm

Six-crew cockpit of the An-225 :

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Photo © Tim De Groot - AirTeamImages
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Photo © Maciek Wolanski



[Edited 2010-01-24 11:07:38]
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Mastropiero
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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:29 pm

Ok, I am sure this is a silly question, but judging by the width of the thrust levers, can a single pilot advance all six throttles at the same time? I have rather large hands and, by the size of the picture, I would have some troubles.... unless I´d rest my thumb on #1 and my pinky on #6.... maybe they are smaller than it looks in the picture?
 
citationjet
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RE: Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:19 pm



Quoting Mastropiero (Reply 24):
can a single pilot advance all six throttles at the same time?

The B-52 pilots do it with eight.


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Photo © Kevin Jackson


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kimon
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RE: Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:06 pm

So on the AN-225 and B-52 no flight engineer to push the throttles like on other 3-man crew flightdecks?
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citationjet
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RE: Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:55 pm



Quoting Kimon (Reply 26):
So on the AN-225 and B-52 no flight engineer to push the throttles like on other 3-man crew flightdecks?

The B-52 have a crew of six. Pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer, navigator, and two EWO's I believe they are called. Only the two pilots sit near the throttles. Two crew sit further back on the same deck facing rearwards, and the other two sit on a lower deck facing forward.
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Mastropiero
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RE: Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:12 am



Quoting CitationJet (Reply 25):
The B-52 pilots do it with eight.

I can´t find too many cockpit pictures of a B-52 to prove my point, but judging by the picture you posted, the PF has his hand on a much smaller set of levers, such as the ones you can see in these shots:


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Photo © Martin Eadie




This is something I don´t see on the An-225, though it is probably a silly point, probably the levers are smaller sized than they look.....  Smile
 
OV735
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RE: Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:41 am



Quoting Kimon (Reply 26):
So on the AN-225 and B-52 no flight engineer to push the throttles like on other 3-man crew flightdecks?

The F/E has his own set of throttles on the An-225, similar to the layout on Tu-154.
 
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747classic
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RE: Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:51 am



Quoting OV735 (Reply 29):
The F/E has his own set of throttles on the An-225, similar to the layout

I cannot locate an extra set of throttles on the F/E panel on all An-225 pictures on the A-net database. Can you provide a picture of this feature.
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kimon
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RE: Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:49 am

Quoting OV735 (Reply 29):
The F/E has his own set of throttles on the An-225, similar to the layout

Did all Soviet airliners have this system?
Any pictures of the TU-154 F/E throttles or other Tupolevs and Ilyushins?
Many thanks
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vc10
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RE: Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:00 am



Quoting CitationJet (Reply 27):
The B-52 have a crew of six. Pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer,

Could be wrong but I always thought the B-52 operated without a F/E
 
OV735
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RE: Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:50 am



Quoting 747classic (Reply 30):
I cannot locate an extra set of throttles on the F/E panel on all An-225 pictures on the A-net database. Can you provide a picture of this feature.

Oops... I was mistaken, the An-225 indeed doesn't have a second bank of throttles. So the throttles must indeed be controlled either by the pilots of an F/E sitting between them.

Here's a shot of the engineer's panel on Tu-154, with the throttle levers in the bottom left. The left levers are those of fuel cutoff, the right ones are the throttle.


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Photo © Shary - Iranian Spotters



On most Soviet transports, there is either a single throttle set between the pilots (Ilyushins, Tu-134B, An-24), whereas those aircraft with the famous "glass nose" feature two sets, one for either pilot


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747classic
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RE: Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:22 am



Quoting Vc10 (Reply 32):
Could be wrong but I always thought the B-52 operated without a F/E

Correct.
There are 5 crew members, Pilot, Copilot, Radar Navigator (Bombardier), Navigator and Electronic Warfare Officer
They used to have six when they had a tail gunner, but that was removed when they made it remotely controlled, then they took the gun out all together

see also : B-52 Crew Compliment (by Blackbird Dec 23 2006 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)
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rwessel
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RE: Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:31 pm



Quoting 747classic (Reply 34):
There are 5 crew members, Pilot, Copilot, Radar Navigator (Bombardier), Navigator and Electronic Warfare Officer
They used to have six when they had a tail gunner, but that was removed when they made it remotely controlled, then they took the gun out all together

Didn't the tail gunner get moved to the forward cabin when they went remote on the G's and H's gun (so there were still six crew)? And that position got deleted when the gun was removed?
 
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747classic
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RE: Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:15 am



Quoting Rwessel (Reply 35):
Didn't the tail gunner get moved to the forward cabin when they went remote on the G's and H's gun (so there were still six crew)? And that position got deleted when the gun was removed?

That's fully correct. So, at present we have 5 crew on the remaining B-52H's.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
kimon
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RE: Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size

Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:29 am

AN-225:most interesting!
So the F/E does not control throttles and has none of his/her own then what is his role regarding power settings takeoff and landing?
For Classic747:I noticed those vertical tape indicators on the AN-225.
I wonder if all Soviet-built aircraft switched to vertical tape indicators?
In anycase,on avioncs they lag terribly.
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