xero9
Topic Author
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Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:29 pm

Hi all,

Some of you might remember me as the guy who was afraid of spin training, and was asking advice on that. Now I have a new dilemma on my hands.. Doing circuits.

I'm not really sure what I expect to get out of this thread. I guess just any experiences you guys had with your approaches and landings as a student.

I'm current at about 24 hours, with 19 landings under my belt. Of those 19, only 2 of them were really good in my books (oddly enough, the very first one). The problem is, some days I have decent ones, and others are just horrible. Yesterday was quite bad, as I didn't straighten out the aircraft before touching down. We had a bit of a crosswind from the left, and the right wheel landed first, which isn't good.

I know some of you might say there are things I should be talking to my instructor about, but I guess I'm kind of curious to know at what point other people went solo, and if others were ever in the same boat as me (I'm sure there has to be). I'm just getting a little discouraged at this point. We only did 2 circuits yesterday when my instructor decided to call it a day. I think maybe she's losing confidence in me.

So yeah, I know a lot of you were probably student pilots many many years ago, but maybe there are some student pilots here as well?

Thanks guys.
 
bri2k1
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:20 pm

My two cents:

First: Relax. Use lighter pressure on the yoke; a couple fingers should be sufficient in most phases of flight. Take a deep breath, enjoy the view, and marvel at the wonder you're taking part in.

Landings are a lot like riding a bicycle. You're going to struggle for a while, then one day, it will click and you won't have any more trouble. 19 landings is probably just scratching the surface. I see most students having it happen anywhere between 20 and 200. And, for what it's worth, don't worry yourself about counting them. You can put them in your logbook, that's fine, but don't fret over them. Focus on the physics. You want to fly the plane as close to the ground as you can without landing, and let the plane land itself. Train your eyes to shift to the far end of the runway and get used to the sight picture as the plane settles onto the runway. You'll turn those bouncers into squeakers in no time, and you'll never look back.

No matter how good you get, you can still improve. There's a little magic involved in every landing in my opinion. Sometimes, when you're not expecting it, like during a bumpy, turbulent approach, you can surprise yourself and come out with the smoothest landing of all times. Other times, on a severe calm day, you can bounce down the runway like Captain Kangaroo (note: practice your go-arounds, too).

You'll know when you have it down, because your instructor will ask you to "make the next one a full stop, I want a cup of coffee." The thrill of your first solo landing will make you realize that you can land safely, all by yourself, and you'll be off to the races. Good luck!
Position and hold
 
DashTrash
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:02 pm

You have 19 landings, 2 of them were good, one of which was the first.... Sounds like a good track record!

The first landing is always the best, then the rest suck for a while. You''ll have a breakthrough where they all become acceptable. It just takes some patience. As far as the crosswind thing, I know airline pilots who can't land in a crosswind. It comes from letting the airplane land you rather than you landing the airplane.

You'll hear people say "you quit flying the airplane". No one ever explains what that means. In a nutshell, use the rudder pedals. Establish your wing down attitude and use the rudder to keep the airplane pointed down the centerline. Use the ailerons to keep the airplane over the centerline. Small corrections are the key, unless you need a big correction.
 
xero9
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:23 pm

Thanks guys for the tips and the encouragement.

I guess I got a bit full of myself, having beginners luck and all on the first one. Then it was basically a downhill slope from there.

Bri, I think one of my big problems is judging just how far above the ground I am. I've concluded it's all luck if I flare at the right time or not.

Oh yes, there was something else I wanted to ask the experts here.. Now I know when you take off with a crosswind you deflect ailerons fully into wind, and as you build up speed you reduce it gradually as they become more effective. That part I understand completely. My instructor though, said as soon as the airplane touches the ground on landing to deflect them full into wind again. I questioned this, but was told to just deflect them into wind fully. I have 2 problems with this.. One is what happens if I think I'm on the ground, so I fully deflect, but then I bounce? The second thing is, wouldn't it be the opposite of take off where you gradually add ailerons as you slow down?

Thanks again for the replies, I do appreciate it.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:31 pm

I highly recommend that you find a book called "Stick and Rudder." It's a MUST READ for anyone, whether the student pilot in the 152, or the 10,000 hour grizzled airline captain.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
Web
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:38 pm

First of all, good for you for working on getting your PPL! It is not easy, especially at the beginning when it feels like you can't do anything right. I guarantee it is worth every hour and every landing.

Now, about landings. Without having experienced any of your landings and seeing/feeling what your problem areas are, I can't give a whole lot of help, but I'll do what I can.

First, like bri2k1 said, 19 landings is approximately equivalent to one lap in the pool when learning to swim. I remember days when I did 12 or 15 landings in a row; talk about frustrating! It takes a lot of practice to get landings down, and even when you think you have them mastered, you'll have one where you wonder why they ever let you fly an airplane if you can hardly get it back on the ground in one piece. I had a landing right at the end of my training where I was sure I popped the right main; I nailed the lip of the pavement at the end of the runway, but I went around and landed without incident. Landings are fickle, and you can only master them to a certain extent. Witness all the crazy landings on flightlevel350.com by highly experienced airline pilots to see this. 100% perfection is not possible, but 95% or so certainly is, and that is all you should ask of yourself.

That being said, such a level of competency is a bit far off at the moment (for me too), but it doesn't mean you shouldn't be working toward it. Some things that I can think of that might help you get there are as follows:

1. Slow down! Give yourself a wide pattern; don't be in a rush to get back to the runway. Give yourself time to get through every item on each leg, and if anything doesn't look good by the time you reach short final, go around. Go-arounds are always an option, even when you're on the ground and still rolling. Airplanes want to be in the air, so if the bird is being squirrelly on the ground, get it back in the air and try again.

2. Slow down! This was my problem: on final, I would be way too fast, up to 10kts fast. Remember stalls? It takes a very slow airspeed (possibly very slow, depending on the airplane) to turn the bird into a rock. Approach speeds are there because that's what works best; don't be afraid of getting the airspeed down where it should be. This is especially tricky when landing on wide runways because it appears you are not moving anywhere, even though your speed is good. Focus on the airspeed indicator for speed, not the sight picture. I still struggle with this sometimes; 63kts just seems too slow (for my airplane), but that's what works best. Nail your speeds and you are well on your way to greasers every time.

3. Energy management. This is the idea that altitude and airspeed are inverses, and power buys you altitude. Too low on approach? Don't pitch up; add power to arrest your descent to regain the glideslope. Too slow? Pitch down and add power to both gain airpseed and maintain the glideslope. Managing airspeed (through pitch) and altitude (through power) is key to a stabilized approach. It is rather counter-intuitive, but again, it's what works best.

4. Crosswinds. No one likes them, but they are the norm, not the exception. Apart from proper crosswind control deflections (roll into the wind, yaw against it), use only as much flaps as you need. Don't go all the way to 30 degrees if 20 degrees will suffice; that extra 10 degrees adds a large amount of drag that only increases the need to cross-control. This will allow for a faster approach speed, which results in a decreased need to cross-control (due to higher effectiveness of the control surfaces at higher speeds); together, this lessens the burden of control on you.

5. Fly the airplane all the way to the taxiway. Once you touch down, you're not done flying! Manage the controls until you're stopped, remembering that control effectiveness decreases as you slow down. Hold the nose off the ground as long as possible, increase the crosswind correction as you slow down, and brake only as much as necessary. This is not the time for violent control inputs, although aggressive control may be required to combat gusts. Keep light hands on the controls, with a hand on the throttle ready for a go-around at any point in the landing sequence.

There's a lot more that I could tell you, but I'll let this be for now. Probably information overload, but take it a piece at a time. Let us know if you want more pointers, and if so, tell us what exactly you're struggling with. Best wishes to you in your flying pursuits!
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:50 pm

Quoting Web (Reply 5):
Focus on the airspeed indicator for speed, not the sight picture.

I disagree. The last thing you want to do is focus on anything in the cockpit. Quick glances, perhaps, but your main focus is out the window, looking at the runway, and your position to it. Set your pitch attitude, and use the throttle manage your glide angle.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
dw747400
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 6):
Quoting Web (Reply 5):
Focus on the airspeed indicator for speed, not the sight picture.

I disagree. The last thing you want to do is focus on anything in the cockpit.

I think he means don't use the sight picture to judge your speed. At least I hope thats what he means. Eyes outside when flying VFR, especially on landing.

When flying, especially with headwind, the airspeed indicator is your best tool for judging speed (duh). Relying on sight often results in faster approaches. Of course, we have other tools like the stall warning horn, aerodynamic buffet, etc. to help us judge airspeed---but I don't like using those in the approach  .
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:16 pm

3 words: Practice practice practice!!!!

It will come in time. Just be patient. Don't sweat it. As long as you don't bend the plane or break you or your instructors spine you're fine.

Now if by your 200th lading you're still cratering the runway and zigzagging all over the place, you may have other problems.

How did your CFI tell you to adjust your seat height, by the way?

Quoting xero9 (Thread starter):
and the right wheel landed first, which isn't good.

It isn't bad either, unless you break it. It just doesn't look pretty.

Quoting bri2k1 (Reply 1):
Use lighter pressure on the yoke; a couple fingers should be sufficient in most phases of flight.

        

That has to be the no.1 pet peeve for flight instructors. The death grip is a tough habit to break. You end up over controlling the plane a lot and making jerky movements.

You only need two fingers for flying, even in moderately gusty or turbulent conditions. Don't fight the plane, unless you find yourself flying suddenly into a mountain.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 6):
I disagree. The last thing you want to do is focus on anything in the cockpit. Quick glances, perhaps, but your main focus is out the window, looking at the runway, and your position to it. Set your pitch attitude, and use the throttle manage your glide angle

  

Learning the "scan" comes later. Right now concentrate on flying the plane while mainly looking outside.
 
bri2k1
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:39 pm

Remember this: A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is one where the plane can be flown again. So far, all of mine have been great! (Source unknown, sorry)

As far as full deflection of ailerons on landing: it sounds like your CFI wants to get you in the good habit of continuing to fly the plane while it's on the ground. The wing still moves through the air, and taxiing with a rear quartering tailwind in your tricycle-gear plane, or too close to the business end of a turbojet, will require proficient skills here. But nothing is an absolute, except for remembering safety first. Some days and crosswinds will require full aileron; others may require a partial deflection. Remember at those slow speeds they're less effective, and even if the plane bounces you're still going quite slow, so you're not going to flip over immediately. Just make whatever control inputs are necessary to put the airplane where it needs to be. On a gusty day with low-level wind shear, I find myself making many sudden corrections to maintain centerline and the correct attitude for landing. But most days, especially as a relatively new student, will not be like this and your corrections should be anticipated and smooth.
Position and hold
 
GolfOscarDelta
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:48 pm

Mate I just got my PPL 3 months back. My first few landings were pretty decent/normal and my instructor said i was ready to solo and then it all went to the dogs. My landings started getting worse and one day they sucked so bad that after just 3 touch'n'go's my instructor called it a day. And i tell you what he told me after we tied up the plane that day "Don't beat yourself up thinking about it".

At about the 15 hour time i had run into the same problem as you; unable to flare right, sometimes flareing too early and then plonking it down a bit hard or not flaring and leading to a float (also due to my approach speeds being slightly above normal). My mistake was that the first few times i did the landings i consciously was lining up the cowling with the end of the runway once i crossed the numbers and keeping it there automatically caused the plane (C172P) to flare right. As i started learning other skills .... for some reason i stopped doing that (aligning the cowl with the runway end) and started trying to flare by judging the height i was above the runway. Now i could judge the height to flare just about right but depending on my approach speed and the wind, reaction time, the gravitational pull of Jupiter on that day and a zillion other things it would always go to the dogs when i tried to do this. At about my 20 hour time frame my instructor realized what i was doing and told me to go back to aligning the cowling with the end of the runway as i cross the threshold - numbers region, and sure enough everything was back smooth again.

Quoting xero9 (Reply 3):
I think one of my big problems is judging just how far above the ground I am. I've concluded it's all luck if I flare at the right time or not.


My point is you don't pick a time(or height above the runway) to suddenly yank the stick back and flare, but you gradually start flaring (by lining up the cowl/some reference point on the plane to the far end of the runway and holding it there) as you cross the numbers and the plane will flare itself just right (considering that your approach speed is not too high or too low).

I'm not saying that that's the exact right method to do it or thats the exact problem you have (though it might be), i'm sure CFI's and many other pilots here with more experience can give some better pointers (to both you and me). But seeing that you seem to be exactly in the same position i was 5 months back makes me think my experience might help you.

Quoting xero9 (Thread starter):
I'm kind of curious to know at what point other people went solo

Thats dangerous territory for your mental perception of your flying skills ... my advice is don't go in there ... you might end up beating yourself up ... i sure know i did.
 
xero9
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:52 pm

Good advice. I did find on the downwind perhaps I could go slower, and mentioned this to me instructor, but she said it was fine. I am flying in a 150 and usually seem to have a 172 hot on my tail, so maybe that's why she doesn't want me poking around at 70 knots or so on downwind.

I did have some issues with my speed on final, but I've started to get a handle on that. On one of my first approached I let it slip down to about 45 knots, which is pretty low, I realize that. I think at first I was so focused on maintaining that picture out the wind screen that I didn't bother to glance at my airspeed.

I do find I have a bit of a death grip on the control, especially in tense situations (eg landing). Normal flight in the practice zone and I'm pretty relaxed on the controls. I'll try to be more gentle on them next time.

As for seat height, I don't think I have that option, except sitting on a telephone book :P The 150s are as simple as they get. I'm surprised I can adjust it forward.

Oh I had one more question for you guys.. Is it normal not to be able to really tell how high off the ground you are? I worries me that I'll land nose wheel first so that's why I tend to flare early on, and then as the nose up attitude increases, my forward visibility is limited even further, and I'm afraid to glance out the side window down towards the wheel to gauge my height, because I'm also afraid of losing the center line.

All things I hope I'll overcome with time. I only hope I don't really botch one of these landings eventually and be denied a rental!
 
bri2k1
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:43 pm

Quoting xero9 (Reply 11):
Is it normal not to be able to really tell how high off the ground you are?

It comes with practice. You get used to using your peripheral vision for cues. I don't find any fast rule works, such as where to line up rivets or cowlings etc. because every runway is different. When you are used to a narrow runway and then land on a wide runway, you may tend to flare early, because you see the sides of the runway in your peripheral vision sooner (at a higher altitude) than you do on a narrower runway. This part just takes practice.

Ask your CFI to take a landing, and pay close attention to the sight picture at the various stages. The touchdown is really 3 stages: First, transition from a nose-down to a level attitude just a couple feet off the runway (watch the horizon move downwards). Second, gradually reduce the airspeed while maintaining altitude by increasing back pressure (watch the horizon move downwards some more). Third, when the wing stops flying, slowly settle onto the mains (watch the sides of the runway in your peripheral vision to judge altitude). If you get comfortable with the sight picture out the windscreen during each of these three phases, it will become natural with practice.
Position and hold
 
DashTrash
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:28 pm

One other thing. If your 150 has arm rests, use them to anchor your elbows. Don't move them off the arm rest. I know there's not one in the center, but you don't have that hand on the yoke anyway.

After a few thousand hours, don't ask me to land an airplane with no armrests. It will result in an investigation.....
 
2H4
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:34 pm

The three best pieces of advice I've learned (with regard to landing the 150/152):

1 - Force yourself to focus on the far end of the runway through the flare and landing. It might feel strange to not look at the section of runway immediately in front of you, but I bet your landings will improve

2 - In the flare, when judging your height and anticipating when your main gear will touch down, simply challenge yourself to not let the mains touch. Challenge yourself to see how long you can hold the mains 6 inches off the runway. When I concentrated only on this, and not on trying to touch down, my landings improved quite a bit.

3 - If one of your feet continually falls asleep and bothers you, remove your wallet.  
Intentionally Left Blank
 
xero9
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:01 pm

Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Reply 10):
My first few landings were pretty decent/normal and my instructor said i was ready to solo and then it all went to the dogs. My landings started getting worse and one day they sucked so bad that after just 3 touch'n'go's my instructor called it a day

Whew okay so it's NOT just me! Let me ask you this, because my instructor was optimistic about me soloing very shortly after having a good run.. Did you end up having to go up them a few more times than expected?

I will certainly apply your advice the next time I'm up

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 14):
1 - Force yourself to focus on the far end of the runway through the flare and landing. It might feel strange to not look at the section of runway immediately in front of you, but I bet your landings will improve

I really need to get this through my brain too. I think I've just been way too focused on looking right at the nose of the plane looking to see if I've drifted or not aligned with the center line.

The funny part is, I'm sure soon I'll probably look back and this and go "but it's so easy, why couldn't I do it before!". Until then, I'll be mindful of putting a sideways load on the gear. I'd rather set it down harder than I should instead of sideways. It's not a nice feeling, that's for sure.

Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Reply 10):
Thats dangerous territory for your mental perception of your flying skills ... my advice is don't go in there ... you might end up beating yourself up ... i sure know i did.

True enough. I believe the minimum in Canada is 15 hours, which I'm passed. I was hoping somewhere around the 25 hour make, which doesn't seem likely. I think though once I get passed my landing issues I'll be okay. I caught on pretty quickly with the rest of the exercises. I'll try obtaining my PPL as close to the 45 hour minimum as possible, so it'll balance it self out hopefully :P
 
Lemmy
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:11 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 2):
Small corrections are the key, unless you need a big correction.

Words to live by.
I am a patient boy ...
 
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DesertFlyer
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:34 pm

I'm not going to give you technical advice on how to fly the plane because I think everyone here has already handed you some great advice. Instead I'll get a bit more into the mental aspect of flying the plane. Here is my take on it from getting my PPL almost exactly 3 years ago. Landings were easily my most difficult challenge. Pretty much all other aspects of flying the plane gave me no trouble and I was very natural, but landings gave me a lot of stress. Like you, some days were ok, some were horrible. I had two different instructors over the course of getting my PPL, and especially the second one was not patient with my inconsistent landings. This made it worse for me. The first instructor I had was usually relaxed and would take time with me, and in fact I flew with her right before testing for my PPL to get a boost of confidence, it's one of the best things I ever did.

So don't get down on yourself. Landings are tougher for some than others, don't let your instructor getting frustrated put weight on you. The best thing you can do is keep practicing, and you WILL get it. The more often you get it, the more your confidence in your decision making will build and the better you will do. That's what it boiled down to for me and I wish someone had given me this advice back then.

[Edited 2010-03-12 14:35:47]
 
PGNCS
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:54 pm

Quoting bri2k1 (Reply 1):
No matter how good you get, you can still improve. There's a little magic involved in every landing in my opinion. Sometimes, when you're not expecting it, like during a bumpy, turbulent approach, you can surprise yourself and come out with the smoothest landing of all times. Other times, on a severe calm day, you can bounce down the runway like Captain Kangaroo (note: practice your go-arounds, too).

Very true, my friend. I have several landings in my logbook at this point, and despite having flown my current aircraft for well over 10,000 hours, I still get surprised (either good or bad) on occasion. Relax about the landings. They take time, and they are a blend of science and art: counting them is fine for your logbook, but different people learn at different paces and in different ways. The important thing is that you practice often and don't measure yourself against others.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 2):
You have 19 landings, 2 of them were good, one of which was the first.... Sounds like a good track record!

I agree with Dash, here. 19 is such a small number compared to what you will have in a lifetime of flying that the quality of any of them in particular is statistically meaningless. Again, relax about the landings, and talk to your instructor. If you are doing well in the other phases of flight, I would look into having a couple of hours of instruction with a different instructor who may be able to provide some insight or a technique that gets through to you better. It's not an insult to your instructor, it's your training!

Quoting xero9 (Reply 3):
Bri, I think one of my big problems is judging just how far above the ground I am. I've concluded it's all luck if I flare at the right time or not.

Join the club!   That's a problem all of us have at times, sometimes the ground surprises even very experienced people! Ditto on timing the flare...the two can't be separated anyway!

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 4):
I highly recommend that you find a book called "Stick and Rudder." It's a MUST READ for anyone, whether the student pilot in the 152, or the 10,000 hour grizzled airline captain.

I don't know that I'm "grizzled", but I do agree with this suggestion. When you get more advanced the other must read book is "Fly the Wing" by Jim Webb; you don't have to wait to read it, but I would read "Stick and Rudder" first, for sure.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 8):
How did your CFI tell you to adjust your seat height, by the way?

Bingo! I was going to mention that exact same thing. Seat adjustment is even more important in bigger aircraft, but it is critical that you adjust your seat THE SAME WAY EVERY TIME, or the landing will look different every time you fly, and your landings will never obtain consistency. There are a variety of methods to do this; if you haven't discussed this with your CFI, do so without fail next time you fly! It WILL make a huge difference.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 14):
1 - Force yourself to focus on the far end of the runway through the flare and landing. It might feel strange to not look at the section of runway immediately in front of you, but I bet your landings will improve

I hesitate to give specific advice without being in the aircraft with you, but a common error is focusing to close during the roundout and flare.
 
Alias1024
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:23 am

Quoting xero9 (Thread starter):
I'm current at about 24 hours, with 19 landings under my belt.

That sounds reasonable to me. When I instructed I would guess that most of my students were around 30-35 landings when they first soloed. Maybe I was a bit paranoid, but I wanted to make sure they could handle engine failures in the pattern, unexpected crosswinds, and regular landings consistently. 20 landings just isn't enough to teach all of that and then see consistent performance from a student.

If it makes you feel any better, I had some long gaps between lessons that set me back and I had 28 hours and 51 landings before soloing.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
Glom
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:42 am

Quoting xero9 (Thread starter):
We had a bit of a crosswind from the left, and the right wheel landed first, which isn't good.

That's good in a crosswind, isn't it?

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 8):
Learning the "scan" comes later. Right now concentrate on flying the plane while mainly looking outside.

Monitoring the ASI is essential because winds screw up any hope of being able to judge speed on approach. But otherwise, keep most of the gaze outside. The sooner HUDs become prevalent the better.

Quoting xero9 (Thread starter):
(oddly enough, the very first one)

Know the feeling. My last several approaches have been poor. Far too much energy.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:33 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 18):
There are a variety of methods to do this; if you haven't discussed this with your CFI, do so without fail next time you fly!

        

MANY CFIs overlook this. It is extremely important.

Dunno about the 150 but in the 172 your eyes should be level with the top of the of the line where the window ends and the door frame begins.

The other method, which is my preferred one as it works in most planes, is to set the seat height just high enough so the top of the glareshield/panel just barely covers the tip of the nose cowling in such a way that any slight leaning forward will expose more of the cowling.

Of course all this must be "measured" while properly seated, not leaning forward or slouched or any of that crap.

Quoting Glom (Reply 20):
The sooner HUDs become prevalent the better.

HUDs are for cheaters and lazy people  
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:50 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 21):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 18):
There are a variety of methods to do this; if you haven't discussed this with your CFI, do so without fail next time you fly!

        

MANY CFIs overlook this. It is extremely important.

Dunno about the 150 but in the 172 your eyes should be level with the top of the of the line where the window ends and the door frame begins.

This is why transport aircraft have alignment devices to ensure that each and every time you sit down, you are right where you need to be.
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Moose135
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:15 am

Quoting xero9 (Reply 3):
Bri, I think one of my big problems is judging just how far above the ground I am. I've concluded it's all luck if I flare at the right time or not.

A hundred years ago, flying the KC-135, one of the practice maneuvers we did in training was a landing attitude demo. You would fly the airplane down to the flare, add a little power, then hold the landing attitude down the runway until it was time to go around. It let you get a sense of the proper view out the front, the correct pitch angle, as well as a feeling of how high above the ground you should be. You might want to ask your instructor to do something similar, so you can see how it should look.

One time, while flying the T-38 in UPT, I had to do a practice heavy weight, single-engine approach and landing. After initial takeoff, I drive it around the pattern and line up for a straight in visual approach. I had that thing nailed - on airspeed, lined up on centerline, the VASIs looked perfect. Just as I'm thinking this is going to be the best landing in the history of manned flight, I hear the instructor yell "FLARE" over the intercom, followed immediately by a huge BOOM.  Wow! I was expecting to see the gear struts poking through the top of the wing. I guess it wasn't really that bad, as we continued the touch and go and headed out to do some air work, but it's something I've never forgotten.  
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
bassbonebobo
Posts: 52
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:15 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 20):

Quoting xero9 (Thread starter):
We had a bit of a crosswind from the left, and the right wheel landed first, which isn't good.


That's good in a crosswind, isn't it?

No. Upwind main first

Quoting xero9 (Thread starter):

The fact that you realize that your landings are not as good as they could or should be is half the battle. I have flown with several people that had no idea that their landings were terrible. Your best bet is to have the instructor demonstrate a landing for you. Focus hard on everything that is going on (the sight picture, control inputs, etc.). When you know what a good, stablized approach and landing is supposed to look like compare your approaches to that. DO NOT FOCUS ON THE LANDING ALONE. A perfect landing requires a perfect approach. When I have one of my particularly craptacular landings I can usually trace it back to a mistake that I made very early in the approach (usually during or prior to the base-to-final turn). What has helped me most, in all of my training, has been to talk my way through everything. It helps you remember what to do and do it consistently. It will also help your instructor when and where you are making any mistakes.

The most important thing is to relax and have fun.
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GolfOscarDelta
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:18 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 18):
but a common error is focusing to close during the roundout and flare.
Quoting xero9 (Reply 15):
I've just been way too focused on looking right at the nose of the plane looking to see if I've drifted or not aligned with the center line

...trying to maintain the damn thing on the centerline i was looking only a short distance ahead => my flares were high or low but mostly high. Another thing eating me at the back of my head was a stupid voice that kept saying that if i flare too late i'm going to end up either landing on the nosewheel or much worse having a propstrike. So usually i ended up flaring high and then plonking down kinda hard.

Quoting xero9 (Reply 15):
I'll be mindful of putting a sideways load on the gear

152's and 172's are built tougher than russian T-55's  
Quoting xero9 (Reply 15):
Did you end up having to go up them a few more times than expected?

Just checked my log book.
15 Landings = Instructor tells me i'm ready to solo and we have presolo flight but 3 bad touch n gos later he says wait for another day.
Weather sucks, i have exams, planes are unavailable and i don't fly for nearly 6 weeks. I've pretty much forgotten my old technique for flaring by this point of time and 29 unsatisfactory practice landings follow once i resume flying after the 6 week break. All the practice landings were to see if i could get the flare right but for some reason it was always bad.
So those 29 unsatisfactory landings later i realize i'm trying to look out only short distance ahead and not at the end of the runway
7 more landings (all pretty decent/good ones for a student) with the corrected "align cowling-end of runway" technique
3 pre solo Touch n go's
Total 54 landings before i solo'd.

Now i'm not advocating the align cowling-end of runway technique, i'm just mentioning what worked for me (on a 172). Find something that works for you. Ask your instructor to do a few landings and observe the sight picture like bri2k1 mentioned.

Quoting xero9 (Reply 15):
I'll try obtaining my PPL as close to the 45 hour minimum as possible, so it'll balance it self out hopefully

The balancing out pretty much happened to me, I was aiming for the 40 hr mark (U.S.) but once i solod everything else went pretty well and I got mine at 48.XX hrs. Never had to repeat a lesson again, all my other skills, radio, navigation etc. were pretty much spot on. Thinking about it i think i might have lost an inch of hairline beating my self up by trying to over analyze my bad flares :P
 
PGNCS
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:18 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 22):
This is why transport aircraft have alignment devices to ensure that each and every time you sit down, you are right where you need to be.

Yes there are, but since I don't know how his aircraft is equipped (I am guessing it does not have a design eye reference point indicator of any sort, but could be wrong), I advised him to discuss the proper method of adjusting his seat in his particular model of aircraft with his CFI. Several techniques were discussed by other posters, and I have seen any number of methods, measurements and devices used, and personal preference plays a role, too. The big point is to find a place where you can see what you need to see, reach the controls you need to reach, and sit in that exact spot every single time.
 
xero9
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:25 am

Hehe, thanks for the great replies guys, you have no idea how much it's helped mentally, and will try to put the advice to use the next time I'm up in the air.

GolfOscarDelta, it really seems like I was in the same boat you were in, and that you were able to overcome them. I'll try to learn from your mistakes and see if I can improve upon my skills  

Oh and by the way, when I mention the 19 landings, I wasn't exactly keeping score per say, but was just throwing the number out there to see if more was expected of my at this point or not. 19 seemed pretty high for me, mind you it's been a short time since I started doing the landings, so maybe that's why it seemed like a decent number to me. I started doing the landings since Feb 21st.

Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Reply 25):
Thinking about it i think i might have lost an inch of hairline beating my self up by trying to over analyze my bad flares

Haha, and I think my blood pressure high have shot up a bit on a couple of my approaches, and of course holding that nose down attitude until the last second. I'm glad I'm not the only one terrified of planting the nose in the ground.

Anyway, my wife's grandfather gave me a ton of books he used to have related to flying, so I'm going to see if "Stick and Rudder" was one of them. If not, he probably has it somewhere. I'll give that a read.

Thanks again  
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:34 am

Most important thing once you cross the threshold is to look towards the horizon at the end of the runway, this will help prevent you from floating and/or dumping it down because you are better able to judge your sink rate and aircraft attitude in the flare this way. In a small aircraft you can really get some greasers this way... however if you plan on taking things further career-wise then you do want a positive landing (ie not hard but a positive connection with the runway), greasers can be dangerous especially in windy/wet conditions.
Good luck!  
56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
 
musang
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:12 am

There's a fair amount of good advice so far. Your only problem will be to distill and summarise it!

Quoting xero9 (Thread starter):
We only did 2 circuits yesterday when my instructor decided to call it a day. I think maybe she's losing confidence in me.

Doubt it. She probably decided your heart wasn't in it that day (distractions?) A good instructor can tell.

Quoting xero9 (Reply 3):
I have 2 problems with this.. One is what happens if I think I'm on the ground, so I fully deflect, but then I bounce? The second thing is, wouldn't it be the opposite of take off where you gradually add ailerons as you slow down?

If you did bounce, it would happen so fast that you would not be quick enough to make a concious decision to deflect ailerons. In a crosswind, you will have a certain amount of aileron in anyway - just don't feed any more in until its firmly on all three. And yes, you add aileron as it slows down. The object is to keep the wings level, and and as speed drops (and therefore lift) more aileron is needed.

I used to demonstrate to my students, just for the heck of it, a take-off with full aileron deflection (in 152s and 172s). Even without a crosswind. After a normal rotation and lift-off, of course it starts to roll, and the ailerons are then centralised, but the point of the demo was to show that its easily manageable, rolls quite slowly at those low speeds, and is not going to snap-roll you into the concrete inverted! There is a co-pilot on my fleet who, after correctly putting aileron in during a x-wind t/o, abrubtly levels the wheel just as he lifts off!?!? NOOOO! The crosswind doesn't cease to exist during rotation!

I didn't "get" x-wind landings fully until I was into my commercial training. Suddenly the penny dropped and that light bulb came on over my head. It does for many people, but as a poster said, there are airline pilots that still can't do it....

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 4):
I highly recommend that you find a book called "Stick and Rudder."

Couldn't agree more. Its on Amazon etc. Author is Wolfgang Langeweische. I did my instructing in the States, lodging with a very kind and hospitable but very religious family (I'm not). They kept asking me if I fancied going to church with them - I hope I wasn't too offensive when I answered that my religion was aviation, my church was the airport, and "Stick and Rudder" was my bible.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 4):
Don't go all the way to 30 degrees if 20 degrees will suffice; that extra 10 degrees adds a large amount of drag that only

Maybe later. I would suggest at this stage keeping approaches as constant (all the same) as possible. Same pattern sequence, same flap setting etc. And accurate speed is important. A few knots fast and it will float too far. Too slow and it will drop out from beneath you sooner. Use a "standard" speed and flap setting. Don't introduce variables. AND DON'T AIM TO GREASE AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT! The showboating can come later. Hitting the runway in the correct place, on the centreline, at the right speed is important at this point, and adopting a standard approach set up a described above will promote this.

You can let it fall to earth from a foot off the ground if you like. 150s/172s have probably the softest landing gear of any training machine. As someone said earlier, fly it down to flare height, raise the nose to "level" (you will get used to what looks like level - its actually slightly nose up, but is a pitch-up from the approach attitude) and steadily reduce to idle. Hold the sight picture (Looking at the far end of the runway) and as long as you DO hold that picture, which will require increasing back pressure a the speed bleed off, it will sink those last few inches and land itself.

I used to express the "sight picture" for touchdown in terms of the distance the horizon was above the top front end of the cowl. Its different for each student of course. Maybe a fist's height. Maybe three fingers' height if they're short. Whatever it was to them, I made them replicate it each time. Its not a precision exercise. Its a ballpark thing.

It may not be a greaser, but thats not the point. The main objective achieved is that you've landed at the correct speed and there's not enough airpseed left for a significant bounce, if any. Who knows - maybe it will surprise you and grease itself on!

Quoting xero9 (Reply 11):
worries me that I'll land nose wheel first

You'd have to be flying far too fast for this to happen. If the speed is correct, it will be in a slightly nose-high attitude when you've flared. If it bounces horribly, you may find it pointing its nose down, because it has left the ground pointing upward, looses speed quickly, and naturally pitches itself down because its designed to do that to regain lost speed. Its just that you can't get yourself into a situation where this happens a few feet above the ground after a bounce. This is why we fly every approach mentally prepared to throw it away (go around) if it hasn't worked out.

Quoting xero9 (Reply 15):
. I believe the minimum in Canada is 15 hours,

And don't get hung up on minimums! I once had a student who completed his Private in 42 hours. But he had no outside distractions, had the money all sorted out, was able to apply himself fully to the task in hand, and was able to fly about 4 times a week plus. Very few students have the ability to devote themselves so exclusively to the training.

We used to tell prospective students "Yes the minimum required is 40 hours (or 35 if Part 141), but reckon on about 60". Something similar can be said for soloing. There may be a legal minimum, but its only that, a legal minimum. Don't beat yourself up if its not achieved, because few do.

Be sure to discuss all the advice you've read here with your instructor. She is your teacher, not us. We on A.net are second opinions. Sometimes advice phrased differently, with slightly different emphasis, makes a breakthrough, but don't get into a situation where you're working with your instructor, but secretly running a parallel training program based on what we're saying. Hopefully she will take the view that your search for more input here is a sign of your enthusiasm.

Good luck! - musang
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:09 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 26):
Yes there are, but since I don't know how his aircraft is equipped (I am guessing it does not have a design eye reference point indicator of any sort, but could be wrong),

I don't know of a light aircraft that does. In the case of the 152, you can't go up and down with the seat, so the only way to achieve height over the nose is to throw a pillow (or two) in. However, one must learn to work with different sight pictures on the fly eventually. This is especially true of single seat aircraft.

Quoting musang (Reply 29):
Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 4):
Don't go all the way to 30 degrees if 20 degrees will suffice; that extra 10 degrees adds a large amount of drag that only

Maybe later.

That is not my quote.
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2H4
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:30 pm

Quoting musang (Reply 29):
raise the nose to "level" (you will get used to what looks like level - its actually slightly nose up, but is a pitch-up from the approach attitude)

On this note, I recommend heading out to the airport on a not-so-busy day, pulling the airplane out of the hangar, and simply sitting in it for a while. Just sit in it and observe everything that's ahead of you. The idea is to etch the sight picture into your brain. That way, you know precisely what your view looks like when all the wheels are on the ground. Knowing this will help you to judge your height above the runway much more accurately as you flare and land.

Best of all, this training is free!
Intentionally Left Blank
 
Glom
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:57 pm

Quoting bassbonebobo (Reply 24):
No. Upwind main first

Of course. It's much more clear when you read what was originally said.
 
musang
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:55 am

Goldenshield.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 30):
Quoting musang (Reply 29):
Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 4):
Don't go all the way to 30 degrees if 20 degrees will suffice; that extra 10 degrees adds a large amount of drag that only

Maybe later.

That is not my quote.


Acknowledged, with apologies. I must have highlighted the quote then somehow clicked "quote selected text" in one of your replies.

Regards - musang
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:18 pm

Quoting musang (Reply 33):
Acknowledged, with apologies. I must have highlighted the quote then somehow clicked "quote selected text" in one of your replies.

There's been a glitch in the quote system lately. You're not the only one.
 
Rj111
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:20 pm

Learning to flare is very much trial and error i found. Sometimes giving lots of advice can just boggle your mind. You have to learn how to do it yourself, your instructor is there just to stop you killing you both.

I too struggled at the time and what helped my overcome it was....

1. Lesson frequency - at the time i was having about 1 a fortnight (infamous British weather at work), which was awful because you could barely remember what you had done the last time. Then one week i took some time off work and had 3 lessons in 2 days. By the end of those lessons i could do it.

2. Ease off the power slowly.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:31 pm

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 35):
2. Ease off the power slowly.

Ah yes another good one I forgot about.

SMOOTHLY reduce the power while simultaneously pitching up as you rotate.

"Chop and drop" is good for short field landings other precision stuff, but that won't come until after you get much more practice.
 
cobra27
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:22 pm

it will work out eventually.
My technique is a little extra speed (if the airflield is loong enough) and slowly down to earth.
Someaircraft are just better for landings than others.
For some reason I managed to get 5 good landings when I flew for the first Arrow, tomahawk is also Ok, Cessna 152 also, not a real fan of DA-20 for landings (otherwise Ok)
 
alwaysontherun
Posts: 171
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:40 pm

Interesting thread with some good posts!

I am only a green LSA (Ultra Light) student, but I do recognize the problems that Xero9 faces.
Especially the one where he felt that his instructor lost confidence in him because of repetitive mistakes!
I kick myself for (yet again) flaring too abruptly (causing us to take off again), flare too little (bang the nose gear), or not using enough pedals after touch down causing us to end up to the left of the runway due to engine torque.
BUMMER!! And the looks, the head-shaking and the sighs from the instructor……………"I told you that 40 times" etc etc.

I can´t seem to get that right all at once.
What I notice is that when I get hammered for the flaring issue I really concentrate on that next time………thereby neglecting my speed a bit and thus coming in too fast for instance.
The result of that is that for the next attempt I concentrate highly on speed and flare, and thereby screwing up centering the runway and the pedal issue………..etc etc. Talk about a vicious circle!!

I read the majority of these posts with great interest because I recognize so much of it!
My instructor advised me to try to stay half a meter above the runway (or less) and stay there until I´m completely happy with my position (assuming there is enough runway) and then smoothly touching it down, but that is not easy.
I pass the threshold and want to get it over and done with as soon as I can!!
Touch the ground A.S.A.P!!!

I´ve got quite a while to go still, I´m afraid.

Keep those good posts coming, please!!


### "I am always on the Run"###
"Failure is not an option, it comes standard in any Windows product" - an anonymous MAC owner.
 
soon7x7
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:33 pm

If you are having confidence issues with aspects of flight that is normal, if you think what you are experiencing is abnormal, or you are not progressing fast enough, re evaluate yourself and or your instructor. I transitioned from glider to power...many pilots do the opposite. Having had over 5,000 hours in gliders my thinking patterns were much different than power pilots , so in short, I was not comfortable with most of the instructors I had tried. I then thought about seeking out instructors that were high time instructors, not young ones just looking to accumulate time. I soloed immedietely in power as soon as I found the correct instructor for me. As far as evaluating yourself...as most people that want to learn to fly are passionate about it, some have phobias and some others just don't get certain aspects of flight. We had a female customer/student that flew extremely well but when it came to landing, she was pertrified. Her landings although safe were nail biting...she would then run into the woods for two hours crying. She gave it up. Other customers we had were advised by us to give it up as they just couldn't get the basics and we felt for all that it was safer not to continue with them. Sounds mean but you must consider safety when letting a student go for the first time. You sound passionate and your a newbie, I wouldn't get jossled...the best way to obtain confidence in yourself is to be confident in your instructor, then get passed the walls you have created in your mind. Tell your instructor you want to practice the stuff that concerns you as everyones learning curve will be different. When you get past the scary part, you will be very confident and will move on to become a good pilot. My opinion of flying is that it is 80% phsycological, 15% mechanical and 5% luck. Been flying 24 years and last month I performed a landing that I hope no one witnessed. No two flights will ever be the same and while flying, your constantly dealing with variables, no absolutes so be easier on yourself....Good Luck...I'm in a rush and didn't read other responses so I hope mine was not redundent...     
 
alwaysontherun
Posts: 171
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:12 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 39):
last month I performed a landing that I hope no one witnessed.

Pictures, anyone???
Youtube???

I guess once you think you´ve seen it all and you don´t need to learn nothing anymore…………it starts to get dangerous!


### "I am always on the Run"###
"Failure is not an option, it comes standard in any Windows product" - an anonymous MAC owner.
 
soon7x7
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:49 am

Quoting alwaysontherun (Reply 40):

No...cameras at KISP=vorbotten! 
 
Alias1024
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:44 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 8):
Quoting bri2k1 (Reply 1):
Use lighter pressure on the yoke; a couple fingers should be sufficient in most phases of flight.

        

That has to be the no.1 pet peeve for flight instructors. The death grip is a tough habit to break. You end up over controlling the plane a lot and making jerky movements.

I had a student that had major problems with this.

I'd tell him to release the death grip and try to be smooth with the controls. No luck.

I'd tell him to focus farther down the runway, as I thought the sight of the ground rushing toward him was causing the anxiety and overcontrolling. No luck.

I'd tell him to fly the approach and landing with only a couple of fingers on the controls. It would look great until we crossed the fence, when he'd get this really tense look on his face, not unlike if he were constipated. Simultaneously, he'd resume the death grip and the rodeo ride to touchdown would commence.

It's can be a tough habit to break, though it would be easier if barbed wire were an acceptable training tool. Bet you won't death grip the yoke after you get stuck a few times!!
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
tams747
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:14 pm

Just keep practicing and dont get discouraged, it will come with experience just like everyone has said already. Not every landing will be something that you will be proud of and thats okay.

I do competition landings in a 150 for my colleges flight team and one of the things that I find helps to set up a good landing is a good stable approach. I always make sure that for each segment of the pattern I am doing the same thing like downwind abeam my landing point is where I make my initial power reduction and throw in flaps 10. The turn to base always depends on the wind situation at the time but once I am stabilized on final with full flaps I make sure to keep a constant decent to my intended landing point. The other recommendation that I have is if you have some extra speed when your in the flare and the plane is floating a bit, dont try to pull back some more to slow down that will just end up in a balloon. Just hold the same pitch attitude and let the plane settle down. On the other side of that if you have an exessive sink rate because your too slow a touch of power will sort that out for you, otherwise go around and carry a little more speed down on final.
GEFT. We do this together.
 
ThirtyEcho
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:19 am

Quoting xero9 (Thread starter):
Of those 19, only 2 of them were really good

All 19 of them were good; some were better than others. Quit evaluating yourself on the basis of landings. Landings are how the non-pilot passenger in the back of an airliner, spiffed on scotch, evaluates the entire flight. There is a lot more to being a pilot than smooth landings and, in fact, a pilot may be safest by slamming it down in a high crosswind or on a short runway.

Quit thinking like a passenger and start thinking like a pilot. That said, the side load on the downwind main was stinko; some retractable mains would have folded up with that. Your aileron input was exactly backwards and my guess is that you were trying to keep the wings level and rudder into the wind. There is no additional charge for using all of the control surfaces.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:33 am

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 44):
All 19 of them were good; some were better than others. Quit evaluating yourself on the basis of landings. Landings are how the non-pilot passenger in the back of an airliner, spiffed on scotch, evaluates the entire flight. There is a lot more to being a pilot than smooth landings and, in fact, a pilot may be safest by slamming it down in a high crosswind or on a short runway.

Amen! A lot of newbies put too much importance in landings. You can not possibly master landings until after you've mastered all other aircraft maneuvers first. That only comes with one thing: practice. LOTS of it.
 
rcair1
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:01 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 28):
Most important thing once you cross the threshold is to look towards the horizon at the end of the runway, this will help prevent you from floating and/or dumping it down because you are better able to judge your sink rate and aircraft attitude in the flare this way.

This is a big one - I was scanning down all these looking for this. One of the biggest things I found to make my landing better was not to focus right in front of (or even worse, beside) the airplane. Look down the runway.... That will make is easier for you to judge and does not cause you to overcorrect.
rcair1
 
tams747
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:04 am

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 44):
some retractable mains would have folded up with that.

What retractables are you flying were a little side load will fold it up? That would have to be a really bad landing
GEFT. We do this together.
 
ThirtyEcho
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:57 am

Quoting tams747 (Reply 47):
What retractables are you flying were a little side load will fold it up? That would have to be a really bad landing

He didn't say that it was a little side load; apparently, it was a real boinger. A big side load against the direction of retraction is seldom trouble; a side load in the same direction as the direction of retraction can break the downlock and cause the gear to, well...retract.

Overall, he's lucky that he isn't training in a taildragger or one of the early Cessnas with spring steel gear.
 
tams747
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RE: Student Pilot Dilemma - Landings

Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:35 am

Taildragger I agree with completely.
I fly a 150 with the spring steel gear everyday, I dont really ever side load it at all but there are people on our team that defiantly put that little old plane through some hard landings at times. I think its a pretty solid construction that will take a lot of abuse before it fails or turns into a retractable   but thats just my opinion.
GEFT. We do this together.

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