wardialer
Topic Author
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ILS On Tonopah Test Range Ktnx?

Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:02 pm

Hi,

Do ILS approahes exists onto the KTNX airport? Does it have an ILS frequency?
If not, what if there is bad visibilty or something, then how can they do the approahes if its just visual landings?

Thx.
 
oly720man
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RE: ILS On Tonopah Test Range Ktnx?

Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:39 pm

http://www.airnav.com/airport/TNX

There are no published instrument procedures at KTNX.

Which presumably means that those who need to know, know, and those who don't, don't.
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wardialer
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RE: ILS On Tonopah Test Range Ktnx?

Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:06 pm

So how can they land with poor visibilty conditions if there are no ILS approach procedures?

I tried landing using a Visual approach with Flight Sim with 10 miles visibility and its very very hard.....
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: ILS On Tonopah Test Range Ktnx?

Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:31 pm

Quoting wardialer (Reply 2):
So how can they land with poor visibilty conditions if there are no ILS approach procedures?

Your question was answered, see below

Quoting oly720man (Reply 1):
Which presumably means that those who need to know, know, and those who don't, don't.
Quoting wardialer (Reply 2):
I tried landing using a Visual approach with Flight Sim with 10 miles visibility and its very very hard.....

I'm sorry but that shouldn't be difficult, we do it every 6 mo. in the sim. Plan turning final at a given dist, plan a 300:1 descent profile, start at about 750'/min., land. eg. 5 mi final @ 1500' ATH(threshold elev). Use any aid you have eg. VASI or even make a fix at the runway threshold for a dist to go ref.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: ILS On Tonopah Test Range Ktnx?

Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:19 pm

Quoting wardialer (Reply 2):
So how can they land with poor visibilty conditions if there are no ILS approach procedures?

The only time you'll see poor visibility conditions in the desert are when you wouldn't want to be landing in the first place, like a sand storm. Aside from that, if you need an ILS to approach and land on a runway, I think it would be best to reanalyze your piloting skills.
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wardialer
Topic Author
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RE: ILS On Tonopah Test Range Ktnx?

Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:36 pm

"Aside from that, if you need an ILS to approach and land on a runway, I think it would be best to reanalyze your piloting skills."

You hit that statement right on the nail and Im glad you did.

Because nowadays, with all these high tech stuff, like the new EPIC avionics systems from Honeywell, makes the pilots more lazier and the "LACK OF FEEL" for actually flying the sircraft....

Lazy sounds too harsh for me to say, but ILS landings or auto-lands, tends to give away the feeling of flying....
Your right, pilots on a simulator or real flying sessions, should learn how to land by hand and using visual aids instead of a computer doing it for you....

Again, I think your correct on that one.
 
bri2k1
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RE: ILS On Tonopah Test Range Ktnx?

Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:26 pm

Quoting wardialer (Reply 5):
makes the pilots more lazier and the "LACK OF FEEL" for actually flying the sircraft....

Lazy sounds too harsh for me to say, but ILS landings or auto-lands, tends to give away the feeling of flying....

My guess is you're going to eat those words. They are completely ignorant, provide no sources, and are going to do nothing but piss off the many professionals who spend valuable time answering your questions on this forum. If you have no idea what you're talking about, you should seriously consider not speaking.

ILS and "auto-lands" are very different topics. And even planes and personnel capable of performing an autoland require the highest degree of training, certification, and proficiency.

In general, an instrument approach is designed to transition the flight from an area of instrument meteorological conditions to an area of visual conditions near the runway, from which a visual landing can be made. The minimum visibility and ceiling can be quite low, meaning there is very little time during which to transition to the visual landing and perform it. Yet, many skilled pilots do this all over the world, all the time. There is nothing lazy about flying a blind, turbulent approach with icing potential, keeping your passengers calm, seeing the lights just as minimums approach, and performing a safe landing on a runway with poor traction. I'm just saying.
Position and hold
 
mandala499
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RE: ILS On Tonopah Test Range Ktnx?

Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:03 pm

Quoting wardialer (Thread starter):
Do ILS approahes exists onto the KTNX airport? Does it have an ILS frequency?

Looking at the google earth images...
There is a localizer antennae on each end of the runway, beyond the overrun/stopways... at distances that don't match the approach light cross bar distances from the threshold.

I don't see the glideslope anteenae though... but I see both ends are equipped with PAPIs on the left side. (unless that small object west side of runway 32 abeam of the 500ft marker is a glideslope transmitter, and the one at about 700ft from the other end also on the west side is too.

But, as the saying goes... "those who don't need to know, does not need to know the details of it."   

Quoting wardialer (Reply 5):
Lazy sounds too harsh for me to say, but ILS landings or auto-lands, tends to give away the feeling of flying....

should learn how to land by hand and using visual aids instead of a computer doing it for you....

If one cannot land the aircraft visually, ie: manual and with visual navigation means within the airport area... you'd be out of the job even if you're flying the latest aircraft with the latest gizmos.

Landing manually and visually, is part of the sim recurrents... otherwise, the next instrument failure on board an aircraft would result in injuries and/or death...

There are still many runway ends in the world served by the latest airliners that doesn't have an ILS... some don't even have an instrument procedure for it... so it's bye bye autopilot for those landings...

Quoting wardialer (Reply 2):
I tried landing using a Visual approach with Flight Sim with 10 miles visibility and its very very hard.....

If you find it hard with 10mile viz, then there's something wrong in your technique or maybe you loaded the aircraft incorrectly... a flightsim (MSFS?) is a flight sim, but you still gotta fly it and prepare it properly to get maximum enjoyment...   
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Boeing1970
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RE: ILS On Tonopah Test Range Ktnx?

Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:42 pm

Quoting wardialer (Thread starter):
Do ILS approahes exists onto the KTNX airport? Does it have an ILS frequency?

There is no such airport as TNX..... Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
 
bohica
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RE: ILS On Tonopah Test Range Ktnx?

Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:41 am

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 8):
There is no such airport as TNX..... Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Then why is there a debate about whether or not there is an instrument procedure for a non-existant airport?  
 
mandala499
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RE: ILS On Tonopah Test Range Ktnx?

Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:09 am

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 8):
There is no such airport as TNX..... Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Quoting bohica (Reply 9):
Then why is there a debate about whether or not there is an instrument procedure for a non-existant airport?

Shhh! I know that U know that I know that U know...   
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
mrskyguy
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RE: ILS On Tonopah Test Range Ktnx?

Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:58 am

Quoting goldenshield (Reply 4):
Aside from that, if you need an ILS to approach and land on a runway, I think it would be best to reanalyze your piloting skills.

The ILS system has been around for decades because it works. It's not designed to take away the pilot [which is an ignorant assumption to begin with].. it's designed to give the pilots flying in less-than-amble conditions the added benefit of a guide to the runway threshold.

I have personally diverted a number of times due to inability to safely land at a subject airport, even with published ILS approaches in place because the visibility minimums were not met. To say that a pilot flying 'visual' is the 'only' pilot, then I say I'm glad I'm not a passenger on your aircraft.  
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
 
Boeing1970
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RE: ILS On Tonopah Test Range Ktnx?

Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:28 pm

Quoting wardialer (Thread starter):
Do ILS approahes exists onto the KTNX airport? Does it have an ILS frequency?
If not, what if there is bad visibilty or something, then how can they do the approahes if its just visual landings?

If there is an ILS you can't use it anyway. Odds are the place has unpublished charts and is a TACAN approach, or by now its exclusively GPS.

In a nut shell, don't worry about it because you can't use it unless you want to meet a guy named bubba in a jail cell.
 
EMBQA
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RE: ILS On Tonopah Test Range Ktnx?

Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:59 pm

I just don't understand why it is so hard for some people to accept that a restricted access airport has restricted access procedures. Those that need to know have the access and have the information. Those that don't.. don't.. End of story.. period.

[Edited 2010-03-16 09:08:13]
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Fly2HMO
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RE: ILS On Tonopah Test Range Ktnx?

Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:31 pm

Quoting wardialer (Reply 5):
Because nowadays, with all these high tech stuff, like the new EPIC avionics systems from Honeywell, makes the pilots more lazier and the "LACK OF FEEL" for actually flying the sircraft....

Lazy sounds too harsh for me to say, but ILS landings or auto-lands, tends to give away the feeling of flying....
Your right, pilots on a simulator or real flying sessions, should learn how to land by hand and using visual aids instead of a computer doing it for you....


Please go fly a REAL ILS approach in a REAL plane and then get back to us on that one.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 13):
I just don't understand why it is so hard for some people to accept that a restricted access airport has restricted access procedures. Those that need to know have the access and have the information. Those that don't.. don't.. End of story.. period

Amen!
 
Goldenshield
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RE: ILS On Tonopah Test Range Ktnx?

Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:48 pm

Quoting MrSkyGuy (Reply 11):
The ILS system has been around for decades because it works. It's not designed to take away the pilot [which is an ignorant assumption to begin with].. it's designed to give the pilots flying in less-than-amble conditions the added benefit of a guide to the runway threshold.

I have personally diverted a number of times due to inability to safely land at a subject airport, even with published ILS approaches in place because the visibility minimums were not met. To say that a pilot flying 'visual' is the 'only' pilot, then I say I'm glad I'm not a passenger on your aircraft.  


It happened, but it took 7 replies this time for someone to take what I said out of context.

The point of my post is that if he is landing at an airport in the middle of the desert, where visibility RARELY, or even DOES NOT drop below 10 miles, let alone 3 miles, he would not NEED an ILS approach to land here. If he needed an ILS to land at an airport where it's CAVU every day, his piloting skills are poor.

[Edited 2010-03-16 12:10:36]
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411A
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RE: ILS On Tonopah Test Range Ktnx?

Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:05 am

ILS frequency 109.5....worked OK last month when I was there.
Dunno about now.

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