ag92
Topic Author
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Ice On Wings?

Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:04 am

I just saw the picture which most of you would've seen already

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-France/Airbus-A320-214/1671520/L/

I'm no expert, but isn't that ice on the wings? Is it going elsewhere for defrosting, i always thought it was done at the gate, but doesnt the ice on the wings cause a possible disaster?
 
RJLover
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RE: Ice On Wings?

Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:16 am

Guaranteed the aircraft is taxiing somewhere else to be deiced. Some airports have deicing at the gate, others do it at remote locations (deicing pads).
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YYZRWY23
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RE: Ice On Wings?

Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:45 am

Quoting ag92 (Thread starter):
I just saw the picture which most of you would've seen already

There is one of a LOT 737 on the top of 24hr now

http://www.airliners.net/photo/LOT-C...d=a784cd87745152834de4c523016da141

It looks like the AF A320 in your link is right behind it.

Quoting RJLover (Reply 1):
Guaranteed the aircraft is taxiing somewhere else to be deiced.

I would ahve to agree with that statement. I don't see those planes tkaing off with =that much snow ont he fuselage and potential ice under the snow on the wings. Can a/c take-off with that much snow on th fuselage (I have never seen it)?

Quoting RJLover (Reply 1):
Some airports have deicing at the gate, others do it at remote locations (deicing pads).

Exactly. Some airports have deicing pads that they use and have special drainage setup from there for the run-off of the deice fluid. At YYZ you taxi to deice pads to get deicing done.

YYZRWY23
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tdscanuck
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RE: Ice On Wings?

Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:55 am

Quoting YYZRWY23 (Reply 2):
Can a/c take-off with that much snow on th fuselage (I have never seen it)?

Fuselage yes, wings probably not. However, this plane is obviously not planning to takeoff...the leading edge devices are stowed.

Tom.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Ice On Wings?

Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:25 am

Quoting ag92 (Thread starter):
I'm no expert, but isn't that ice on the wings?

Yes.

Quoting ag92 (Thread starter):
Is it going elsewhere for defrosting

I can't tell you where it's going, but it would definitely be deiced before taking off, yes.

Quoting ag92 (Thread starter):
i always thought it was done at the gate

Depends entirely on the airport. Sometimes it's done at the gate, sometimes off the gate.

Quoting ag92 (Thread starter):
but doesnt the ice on the wings cause a possible disaster?

Yes, that's why they will deice it before taking off.

Quoting YYZRWY23 (Reply 2):
I don't see those planes tkaing off with =that much snow ont he fuselage and potential ice under the snow on the wings.

Correct. Not even a consideration.

Quoting YYZRWY23 (Reply 2):
Can a/c take-off with that much snow on th fuselage (I have never seen it)?

Probably, but it's normally not allowed. It's definitely not allowed on three-engined aircraft.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 3):
Fuselage yes, wings probably not. However, this plane is obviously not planning to takeoff...the leading edge devices are stowed.

  
 
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glen
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RE: Ice On Wings?

Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:50 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 3):
However, this plane is obviously not planning to takeoff...the leading edge devices are stowed.

Flaps and Slats will only be deployed after de-icing the aircraft.
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PGNCS
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RE: Ice On Wings?

Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:45 pm

Quoting GLEN (Reply 5):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 3):
However, this plane is obviously not planning to takeoff...the leading edge devices are stowed.

Flaps and Slats will only be deployed after de-icing the aircraft.

What Tom meant, I believe, is that the aircraft is not going to takeoff before it is deiced, i.e. the flaps aren't set for takeoff because it's taxiing to be deiced, then will set flaps for takeoff prior to departing. In other words he was reassuring the OP that the aircraft was not going to depart with this much ice on the aircraft.

BTW there are airlines that deice with the flaps set in the takeoff configuration.
 
citationjet
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RE: Ice On Wings?

Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:00 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 6):
BTW there are airlines that deice with the flaps set in the takeoff configuration.

That's true. Last month I had a window seat on a USAir A319 in MCI and watched them de-ice the wing with the flaps in the takeoff position. The flaps stayed in the same configuration during de-ice thru take off; they never moved.
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BALandorLivery
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RE: Ice On Wings?

Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:08 pm

Airports that are regularly hit by wintery weather tend to have remote de-icing pads that are closer to the runways.

This means that the time from completion of the spray to take off is reduced thus catering for short holdover times that can be encountered at these airports.

Holdover time - Time from start of spraying until the fluid no longer protects and a re-spray is required.

I have remotely de-iced at OSL & HEL

Control surfaces are not moved until spraying is completed so careful attention must be paid because often flaps are extended immediately after start. Therefore you can be doing things in a 'non standard' way.

It's important to go through scans and checklists rigorously during remote deicing.
 
b78710
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RE: Ice On Wings?

Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:28 pm

Quoting YYZRWY23 (Reply 2):
I would ahve to agree with that statement. I don't see those planes tkaing off with =that much snow ont he fuselage and potential ice under the snow on the wings. Can a/c take-off with that much snow on th fuselage (I have never seen it)?

our aircraft are aloud 3mm of frost on the fuse, aslong as it doesnt cover the static ports

none at all on the upper surface of the wing

and up to 3mm underneath the wing
 
FighterPilot
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RE: Ice On Wings?

Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:14 pm

The Law in Canada:

Aircraft Icing

602.11 (1) In this section, "critical surfaces" means the wings, control surfaces, rotors, propellers, horizontal stabilizers, vertical stabilizers or any other stabilizing surface of an aircraft and, in the case of an aircraft that has rear-mounted engines, includes the upper surface of its fuselage.

(2) No person shall conduct or attempt to conduct a take-off in an aircraft that has frost, ice or snow adhering to any of its critical surfaces.

(3) Notwithstanding subsection (2), a person may conduct a take-off in an aircraft that has frost adhering to the underside of its wings that is caused by cold-soaked fuel, if the take-off is conducted in accordance with the aircraft manufacturer's instructions for take-off under those conditions.

Cal   
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tdscanuck
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RE: Ice On Wings?

Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:03 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 6):
What Tom meant, I believe, is that the aircraft is not going to takeoff before it is deiced, i.e. the flaps aren't set for takeoff because it's taxiing to be deiced, then will set flaps for takeoff prior to departing.

Exactly. I have no idea where this particular plane is headed, but it's obviously not planning to take off in the current configuration. It could be going to the hanger, it could be going to the deice pad, it could be headed for the gate, but it's definitely not planning to takeoff before something else happens.

Tom.
 
L-188
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RE: Ice On Wings?

Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:26 am

Yes, that is more snow then you should fly with.

I think everybody hit the main points, remote deicing, maybe taxi to parking-not for flight.

One other reason for remote deicing is that in more eviromentally paranoid Europe you see the airport authorites doing remote deice for fluid recovery purposes.

Which is dumb because proplyene glycol is a food additive. It is put in cereals and instant muffin mixes to keep the berries moist.
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tdscanuck
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RE: Ice On Wings?

Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:02 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):
One other reason for remote deicing is that in more eviromentally paranoid Europe you see the airport authorites doing remote deice for fluid recovery purposes.

Which is dumb because proplyene glycol is a food additive. It is put in cereals and instant muffin mixes to keep the berries moist.

Except for the minor detail that many European deicer fluids contain potassium formate, a salt of formic acid. Although considered "Environmentally friendly", you definitely don't want to eat it and it corrodes cadmium like nobody's business.

Tom.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Ice On Wings?

Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:18 am

Fluid recovery is a good idea anyway. I bet the massive amounts we are talking about aren't a good thing for the ground water.
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glen
Posts: 259
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RE: Ice On Wings?

Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:08 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):
Which is dumb because proplyene glycol is a food additive. It is put in cereals and instant muffin mixes to keep the berries moist.
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 14):
Fluid recovery is a good idea anyway. I bet the massive amounts we are talking about aren't a good thing for the ground water.

It is really a question of the amount. If the quantities normally used on a winter day come into a river it will disturb the natural balance of the water , especially the oxygen level and can kill quite a lot of fish over time.
In ZRH for example the fluid is recovered an then spread through the year over the fields around the airport, where it will be reduced without harming the nature.
More here:
http://www.unique.ch/dokumente/?ID_s...f_De-Icing_sewage.pdf&ID_doku=2666
This has nothing to do with eviromentally paranoid.
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