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Faro
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Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:49 am

I read recently that some three-engined airliners are authorised to take-off with one engine inoperative for ferry flights to an adequately equipped maintenance base. Can they really climb out on one engine only in case of loss of the other engine on T/O? Has this ever happened?

Faro
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Starlionblue
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:14 am

The L-1011 at least can do this. I'm guessing that they must be able to climb out on one engine in case of loss of an engine. Otherwise this wouldn't be legal.

I don't know if an engine out in this situation has happened, but certainly two engine ferries have been performed.

There is no payload, so the aircraft is much lighter than MTOW, which is why it can handle take off and climb on two engines.


The 747 can do ferry flights on three engines btw.
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Tristarsteve
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:22 am

Oh yes.
I have flown on two Tristar two engine ferry flights.

Quoting faro (Thread starter):
Can they really climb out on one engine only in case of loss of the other engine on T/O?

Well for the Tristar, the answer is no. When planning the take off there is a Vr and a V2, but no V1. You rotate at Vr, and then reach V2 at about 1000ft. In between if you have a second failure, you go down.
So before a two engine ferry, you boroscope the two good engines. You also clean the ADP exhaust ducts (because they run continuosly), make sure the nose wheels are more than 50pc tread remaining. You offload everything, no containers, no catering, no cabin crew, no water. At the end of the runway, you run up the good wing engine to take off for a minute, then back to idle. You then run up Nbr 2 to take off for a minute, then release the brakes. You incresae the power on the good wing engine slowly as the aircraft accelerates and the rudder authority increases. At 2000ft in the climb you start breathing again.
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DH106
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:20 pm

Quoting faro (Thread starter):
I read recently that some three-engined airliners are authorised to take-off with one engine inoperative for ferry flights to an adequately equipped maintenance base. Can they really climb out on one engine only in case of loss of the other engine on T/O? Has this ever happened?

I did read somewhere that an L-1011 did, with skillful handling, survive an engine out on a 2-engined ferry flight.departure. Might have been an Eastern or Delta one back in the 70s/80s. I'll try & find the source again.
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tb727
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:20 pm

We can do them in the 727. Would I want to? Umm no way.
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474218
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:46 pm

Quoting DH106 (Reply 3):
I did read somewhere that an L-1011 did, with skillful handling, survive an engine out on a 2-engined ferry flight.departure. Might have been an Eastern or Delta one back in the 70s/80s. I'll try & find the source again.

It was Eastern out of Mexico City, lost the second engine right after liftoff. Made a circuit of the field, at an altitude of 200 feet, and landed safely. Eastern trucked in two replacement engines.
 
2H4
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:29 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
It was Eastern out of Mexico City, lost the second engine right after liftoff.

Which engine were they left with?
Intentionally Left Blank
 
Fabo
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:41 pm

Jak-40 can do this as well.
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KELPkid
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:24 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 6):
Which engine were they left with?

#2 was lost, according to this (ancient, archived) thread:

Eastern Airlines' Ghosts? (by Gnomon Jun 19 1999 in Civil Aviation)

Found by googling "Eastern Airlines Mexico city two engine ferry"  

EDIT: Ooops, #2 was lost, not the remaining engine  blush 

[Edited 2010-04-09 11:49:23]
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Viscount724
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:32 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
It was Eastern out of Mexico City, lost the second engine right after liftoff. Made a circuit of the field, at an altitude of 200 feet, and landed safely. Eastern trucked in two replacement engines.

Eastern also made a one-engine L-1011 landing at MIA in 1983. One engine was shut down due to an oil pressure warning while descending into NAS on a flight from MIA. They then began to divert back to MIA. After about 18 minutes on 2 engines, a 2nd engine flamed out, followed shortly after by the 3rd engine. It descended without power from 13,000 to 4,000 ft. At 10,000 ft. they announced that ditching was imminent. At 4,000 ft. they were able to restart #2 engine and make a safe single-engine landing.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19830505-2
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001214X43070&key=1
 
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TZTriStar500
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:52 pm

We (TZ) did a few on the L-1011 that I can recall. The last one out of DFW has a very notorious photo in the database.


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KELPkid
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:56 pm

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 10):
We (TZ) did a few on the L-1011 that I can recall. The last one out of DFW has a very notorious photo in the database.

Behold, the power of asymetric thrust on the treads of a couple of nosewheel tires  
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Woosie
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:36 pm

Quoting faro (Thread starter):
I read recently that some three-engined airliners are authorised to take-off with one engine inoperative for ferry flights to an adequately equipped maintenance base. Can they really climb out on one engine only in case of loss of the other engine on T/O? Has this ever happened?
Douglas trijets do two-engine ferry flights; it's not specific to Lockheed designs.

[Edited 2010-04-09 14:39:37]
 
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zeke
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:22 pm

Quoting Woosie (Reply 12):
Douglas trijets do two-engine ferry flights; it's not specific to Lockheed designs.

I remember a not very succesfull attempt in ANC when a MD-11 ended up on its tail.
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71Zulu
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:11 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 13):
I remember a not very succesfull attempt in ANC when a MD-11 ended up on its tail.

First thing I thought of when I saw the thread.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20041020X01664&key=1
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Faro
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:46 am

Quoting tristarsteve (Reply 2):
Quoting faro (Thread starter):
Can they really climb out on one engine only in case of loss of the other engine on T/O?

Well for the Tristar, the answer is no. When planning the take off there is a Vr and a V2, but no V1. You rotate at Vr, and then reach V2 at about 1000ft. In between if you have a second failure, you go down.

That's amazing! You just go down...

Does ATC have to be informed of the nature of the flight and would they then impose ad hoc departure routings to avoid built-up areas just in case?

Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
It was Eastern out of Mexico City, lost the second engine right after liftoff. Made a circuit of the field, at an altitude of 200 feet, and landed safely.

Would you happen to know if that 200 feet was being consistently maintained through the circuit or was altitude gradually eroded to 200 feet till the turn onto base? Amazing that one can land an L1011 on one engine...

Faro
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474218
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:20 pm

Quoting faro (Reply 15):
Would you happen to know if that 200 feet was being consistently maintained through the circuit or was altitude gradually eroded to 200 feet till the turn onto base? Amazing that one can land an L1011 on one engine...

From the reports I read (remember this happened over 30 years ago) the maximum altitude was approxmately 200 feet and contrary to previous replys the only remaining engine was No. 2. I will try and find a report in some of my boxes of stuff.
 
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:51 pm

Quoting faro (Reply 15):
That's amazing! You just go down...

Yeah, that whole description is A+ quality interesting.

Quoting faro (Reply 15):
Amazing that one can land an L1011 on one engine...

It's probably the climing and/or altitude maintenance that is really hard on one engine. The landing is going to be the easy part  
 
charlienorth
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:06 pm

You could 2 engine ferry the 727, you had an extensive procedure of disconnecting the generator,capping some lines,disconnecting the hydraulic pump if it was #1 or #2 eng (#3 had no hydraulic pump) and installing a cover on the inlet of the affected engine. There were also crew procedures published but I was never concerned with those.
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citationjet
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:33 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
The 747 can do ferry flights on three engines btw.

Here is proof that they can do it with the engine removed.

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Photo © Norman Gage



As opposed to the five engine 747:

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Photo © Steve Ruttley

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dispatchguy
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:47 am

The B744 can do a 3-engine ferry, either with the rotor locked, or the rotor being allowed to windmill, plugged inlet is not permitted.

Flaps 10 for departure is required, and operation into icing conditions is not recommended.

I dispatched a BAe146 on a 3-engine ferry from DEN to ATW a long time ago, I remember that it took me quite a while to calculate all of the numbers for the max takeoff weight - obviously the cruise altitude was not that great.
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xanda
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RE: Three-Holer Engine Out Ferrying

Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:30 am

First time poster here but have been browsing for years now.

Suprised nobody remembers this one of a TU-154 ferrying on only 2 as I think there was a thread on it at the time, mainly about the pro's and cons of letting the inop engine windmill or not.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Aerof...Russian/Tupolev-Tu-154M/1417084/M/

Nice to finally be part of the forum  

[Edited 2010-04-12 04:31:26]

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