airxliban
Posts: 4285
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 12:14 pm

Transferring 767 Engines To The 747

Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:52 pm

Hi all,

I remember a post on here a while ago that discussed the fact that some airlines (BA and NZ come to mind) debut an engine on 767, then after they have done a certain number of hours, transfer them to their 747-400s and remove some modules that are for one reason or another specific to ETOPS.

I spent most of the night looking for this thread, but couldn't find it. Apologies if it still exists out there.

Anyway, the question was -

1. Is it in fact the case that engines get transferred from 767s to 747s in the fleet of some operators?
2. If so, at what point are the engines taken off the 767?
3. Where does the 767 get new engines from?
4. What if any modules are taken off/modifications are made to the engines in order to put them on the 747-400?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help.

Airliban
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
oly720man
Posts: 5740
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 7:13 am

RE: Transferring 767 Engines To The 747

Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:48 pm

One thread here

B767/B747 Engines (by Mr.BA Nov 20 2000 in Civil Aviation)
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
MarkC
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:10 am

RE: Transferring 767 Engines To The 747

Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:10 am

There is a large PW4000 747 and 767 operator who also freely changes these engines between the types, along with the thrust rating plugs. On a 4000, the Boeing installations are identical and interchangable. The MD and Airbus have different interfaces. But, a 4052 is a 4056, is a 4060, is a 4062 with a simple plug change. Assuming all the internal components are configured for the thrust rating, which they most likely would be.
 
lotsamiles
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 1:22 am

RE: Transferring 767 Engines To The 747

Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:09 pm

For GE (FADEC) powered aircraft it is also possible to move CF6-80C2 engines between the 767 and 747 by changing the ECU and dataplate to reconfigure the engine to the correct thrust rating.
 
AT
Posts: 878
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Transferring 767 Engines To The 747

Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:50 pm

That's interesting. Didn't know that.

Are there any other aircraft pairs for which engines are interchangeable? What about the 767 and 757?
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3359
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: Transferring 767 Engines To The 747

Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:59 pm

Quoting AT (Reply 4):
What about the 767 and 757?

Completely different. B757 engines are smaller than B767 engines, with much lower thrust rating.

BA has the same RB211-524 on B744 and B767. They are interchanged between the fleets.
It takes about 4 hours to reconfigure the engine. The ETOPS engine has an extra oil px sensor, which is deactivated for the B744, and the thrust reverser cascades are changed (they are part of the engine on the RB211). And that is about all.
 
Mender
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:36 am

RE: Transferring 767 Engines To The 747

Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:50 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 5):
the thrust reverser cascades are changed

Don't they stay with the pylon/airframe when the engine is changed?
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3359
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: Transferring 767 Engines To The 747

Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:33 pm

Quoting Mender (Reply 6):
Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 5):
the thrust reverser cascades are changed

Don't they stay with the pylon/airframe when the engine is changed?
Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 5):
(they are part of the engine on the RB211

On the RB211 series of engines, except the-535 on the B757, the thrust reverser is part of the engine. There are no C ducts. When you want to work on the combustion section, or the bleed valves etc, you crawl inside the engine.
It makes boroscopes very comfortable, just lie in the bypass duct!
The -535 has a much smaller bypass duct, so has opening C ducts like all PW and GE engines.
 
cobra27
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:57 pm

RE: Transferring 767 Engines To The 747

Tue May 04, 2010 10:11 pm

So they build more time on 747?
What is the requirent for ETOPS, 50 percent life time of engine
, I think I read that somewhere in ATPL?

Is it true that some aircraft engine parts are used in industrial turbine LM2500, PT25, LM6000. Trent 60?
 
User avatar
cpd
Posts: 4548
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: Transferring 767 Engines To The 747

Wed May 05, 2010 2:44 am

How about QF with the B747-438 RR and the ex-BA 767-ACE planes?
 
rmm
Posts: 518
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 10:34 am

RE: Transferring 767 Engines To The 747

Fri May 07, 2010 2:45 am

I'm not sure that QF transfer the engines between the 767 and 747. I know they used to do it on the 733 & 734 fleet sometime back. When a 734 engine became EGT marginal at 23,500 lb thrust it would be removed and derated to 22,000 lb and used as a spare for the 733 fleet. From memory all the 747 thrust reverser's are white in color and the 767 one's are grey. As the t/rev is part of the RB211 engine I can't say I've seen a white reverser on a 767 or vice versa.

As for the GE powered 747 & 767 all the 744's are FADEC and only 1 767 is, the rest are PMC type engines. So I'm guessing very limited interchange takes place there.
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3359
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: Transferring 767 Engines To The 747

Fri May 07, 2010 9:16 am

Quoting rmm (Reply 10):
From memory all the 747 thrust reversers are white in color and the 767 one's are grey. As the t/rev is part of the RB211 engine I can't say I've seen a white reverser on a 767 or vice versa.

When you fit an engine to the aircraft, you have to hand the thrust reverser. The cascade vanes are different part numbers in different positions on different engines. On the RB211 it is important to remember this, as once you have removed the engine, you can't get the cascade vanes out when it is sitting in it's stand on the floor!
So if you are changing a nbr 2 engine on a B767, and the engine that arrives from the shop is a Nbr 1, you probably have to change about 10 cascade vanes. You must remove these on the wing before you start removing the engine as the reverser has to be fully deployed to get them out. There is another problem as you must leave at least 4 fitted to stop the reverser twisting! If the engine change is planned, this is done in the engine workshop.

PW and GE engines are different, as the reverser is hanging on the wing, and is not part of the engine. Same on the RR Trents.
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Posts: 3679
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

RE: Transferring 767 Engines To The 747

Sat May 08, 2010 4:47 pm

The main reason why this is done is for ETOPs reasons. That is put a brand new engine on an ETOPs aircraft (767) so that there is less chance it will develop a problem/need an inflight shutdown. Since a 744 has 4 engines this is not really an issue for it also since 744s tend to operate longer sectors and less cycles it means longer engine life to use over the engines middle-sunset years whilst keeping the new engines on the 767.
56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
 
MarkC
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:10 am

RE: Transferring 767 Engines To The 747

Sat May 08, 2010 8:02 pm

Its the ETOPs, but its also the EGT margin. If you had, say CFM56-5B's on a mixed A321 / A320 / A319 fleet, you would start out with the high margin engine on the 321, then, when it might not make power on that, you would bump it down to the lesser thrust rating. On that particular engine, the difference in thrust is big between the aircraft.

Ground turbines are essentially the same basic design, but using heavier cases. I know on the GG8, the wall thicknesses in the stators are very noticible compared to a JT8, but, they are also recognizable as JT8.
 
User avatar
jetmech
Posts: 2316
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:14 am

RE: Transferring 767 Engines To The 747

Sun May 09, 2010 12:22 pm

Quoting rmm (Reply 10):
I'm not sure that QF transfer the engines between the 767 and 747.

I don't recall ever doing a direct transfer from a 767 to 747 or vice versa, but it should not really pose a problem if it needs to be done. The only mechanical operation I remember doing to a spare 524G2 before fitment to a 767 was removing a small fairing at the top of the Integrated Nozzle Assembly (INA). Apart from that, there would be the TR cascades as mentioned and anything additional required for ETOPS.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 11):
you can't get the cascade vanes out when it is sitting in it's stand on the floor!

The lower inlet cowling attach bolts are also one to look out for!

Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
SFOMB67
Posts: 371
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:20 pm

RE: Transferring 767 Engines To The 747

Thu May 20, 2010 3:50 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 12):

Correct. And I believe the summing plug on the 767 commands a higher thrust rating than on a 747. Thus after submitting an engine to a higher thrust rating when new, the thrust rating is lowered after installation on a 747, therefor extending the engine the life.
Not as easy as originally perceived

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: GMHL and 18 guests