bahadir
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Cyow Missed Approach Procedures?

Wed May 05, 2010 1:20 am

We are in YOW today and it struck me that the missed approaches in YOW doesn't go beyond the 'Go to this fix' as a missed appr. instructions. What they don't tell us is what to do after we get to that fix. There are no holds at all.
I had a former student of mine to take a look up the CAP (Canadian Air Procedures ) for me. We couldn't find the necessary information about this.

Do we have anyone that has a deeper knowledge of the Canadian Procedures that can shed some light to this?

Thanks,

Baha
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YYZatcboy
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RE: Cyow Missed Approach Procedures?

Wed May 05, 2010 2:25 am

You proceed direct to the fix, get switched back over to Arrivals and then get radar vectored for another approach.


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bahadir
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RE: Cyow Missed Approach Procedures?

Wed May 05, 2010 8:39 am

YYZatcboy,
that's in the case of you have ATC communication. What do you do in case you lose comm?
Earthbound misfit I
 
FighterPilot
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RE: Cyow Missed Approach Procedures?

Wed May 05, 2010 2:32 pm

If you still have comms but they are too busy to give you instructions just yet, you would just hold in the inbound heading that you hit the fix. In the event that you notice a comm failure, you squawk 7600 and proceed direct to your alternate.

Cal   

[Edited 2010-05-05 08:13:24]
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Cyow Missed Approach Procedures?

Wed May 05, 2010 3:55 pm

What YYZATCboy & FighterPilot say is correct and to add that since we use LIDO it specifies under the airport information page (AOI) what lost comm procedures are for that airport and also under the Country Rules & Regs it will be stated on a country level. Also consider that if you look at the MAProced for any airport LIDO doesn't mention a hold. Jepps does. Go figure.
 
bahadir
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RE: Cyow Missed Approach Procedures?

Thu May 06, 2010 1:43 pm

Can you show me that this is covered in Canadian AIP? Is it available online?
I still find it weird that the charts rely on this information that is not published on the charts themselves. How am I supposed to know that we are supposed to hold on the inbound course. The other problem is, since there is no holding procedure depicted on the missed approach, there is not one programmed in the FMS. (Not a big deal , as you can build one but why hide this information someplace where it won't be available to the crews).

CosmicCruiser, LIDO charts suck big time.  
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Cyow Missed Approach Procedures?

Thu May 06, 2010 2:32 pm

Quoting bahadir (Reply 5):
LIDO charts suck big time.

That was the general opinion when we first got them but I think they're pretty good for a number of reasons. Yes, you do have to learn where info is located but after that it's a very well layed out manual. I particularly like how they list country rules (CRAR) then narrow it down to airport rules (AOI). We found when we first began to make the transition from Jepp to LIDO that Jepp was wrong about as much as LIDO so you can't go there. We initially made the change for the EFB where LIDO had a MUCH better presentation than Jepp. This is coming from a guy who had "grown up" using Jepps for about 30 yrs.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Cyow Missed Approach Procedures?

Thu May 06, 2010 3:46 pm

Quoting bahadir (Thread starter):
Do we have anyone that has a deeper knowledge of the Canadian Procedures that can shed some light to this?

CARs require that when you reach a clearance limit, you are expected to hold on the inbound track at that limit. ATC likely doesn't want you to, so will give you further clearance as soon as possible. But, in the event of lost comms as you mention, that is exactly what you are expected to do.

I am guessing that this is the first Canada approach chart you have looked at, as the vast majority do not have holds, as that is not necessary to mention. The only holds depicted are the ones that are not on the expected inbound track.

Quoting bahadir (Reply 5):
How am I supposed to know that we are supposed to hold on the inbound course

In every country I fly, (4 different ones this month), including the US, I am expected to know the air regs of that country. They are not the same. In fact there are some surprising differences between Canadian and American air regs.

Does your carrier not provide you with an air regs "differences" course? If not, you may want to suggest it. It would make your life a lot easier, as it is YOUR licence on the line.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
VokinLoksar
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RE: Cyow Missed Approach Procedures?

Thu May 06, 2010 4:42 pm

I had the exact same question regarding missed approach procedure for a US airport. The consensus there was also that you should hold on the inbound radial from the VOR.

Quoting Longhauler (Reply 7):
In every country I fly, (4 different ones this month), including the US, I am expected to know the air regs of that country. They are not the same. In fact there are some surprising differences between Canadian and American air regs.

Just out of curiosity, can you list a few of the differences between Canadian and US regulations?
 
mandala499
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RE: Cyow Missed Approach Procedures?

Thu May 06, 2010 8:41 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 6):
That was the general opinion when we first got them but I think they're pretty good for a number of reasons.

Yes, it takes time to get used to them, once you do, it's easier.

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 4):
Also consider that if you look at the MAProced for any airport LIDO doesn't mention a hold. Jepps does. Go figure.

LOL, I got an airport here where I am where the Jepp don't have a MAProcedure drawn...
But then, I compared some of the Jepp and Lido charts for Indonesia, and both specify proceed to a fix... basically where you'd hold initially most of the time... in neither does it specify one has to hold at the end of the MAProc.

Mandala499
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bahadir
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RE: Cyow Missed Approach Procedures?

Thu May 06, 2010 9:07 pm

Longhauler,
I like where this discussion is going. Also, I am refraining from answering your question because of the fact that this is a public forum and I don't want to push myself into the corner of what my carrier does and does not.  

Once again, if I could only have an access to the to CAPs , the answer would be pretty simple.  

As far as clearence limit is concerned, we have the guidance from 91.185 but that doesn't apply in the case of missed approaches
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FighterPilot
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RE: Cyow Missed Approach Procedures?

Fri May 07, 2010 2:12 pm

Here is the link to the TC AIM where the information is found. You can download the entire AIM in pdf format.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/pu...lications/tp14371/rac/9-0.htm#9-26

Cal   
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longhauler
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RE: Cyow Missed Approach Procedures?

Fri May 07, 2010 4:00 pm

Quoting VokinLoksar (Reply 8):
Just out of curiosity, can you list a few of the differences between Canadian and US regulations?

Just off the top of my head:

No-alternate IFR rules are different
Takeoff alternate requirements are different
Destination alternate requirements are different
Cat2/Cat3 requirements are slightly different
Hold speeds are different at some altitudes
LoViz, but non Cat2/3 approach minima are very different, and a common "gotcha"

Quoting bahadir (Reply 10):
I am refraining from answering your question because of the fact that this is a public forum and I don't want to push myself into the corner of what my carrier does and does not.

That is a very valid point, and I should have realized that before asking. I too am continually refraining from answering questions on here, usually about security, and yet some people still do not understand the sensitivity involved.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!

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