777ER
Crew
Topic Author
Posts: 9863
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:04 pm

Black Boxes In The Tail?

Thu May 06, 2010 11:54 pm

I was just reading an article in the local paper about the AF447 crash and was wondering if putting the black boxes in the tail of the aircraft would be more safer and easier to locate. The reason I'm wondering this is because if you look at pictures of the NZ A320 and the AF A330 crash, both aircrafts tails came out from high speed water crashes in one piece.

What does everyone else think?
Head Forum Moderator
moderators@airliners.net for all Moderator contact
 
N766UA
Posts: 7843
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: Black Boxes In The Tail?

Fri May 07, 2010 12:06 am

You mean in the actual vertical fin itself? The reason I ask for clarification is that I know you're going to get a few "they're already in the tail!" replies.
This Website Censors Me
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Black Boxes In The Tail?

Fri May 07, 2010 12:08 am

You might want to do a search, this topic comes up every once in awhile....

Anyway....

They are in the tail section because the tail has a less of a chance of breaking-up completely during a crash. This has been proven on almost every aircraft accident.

Edit: re-wording...

[Edited 2010-05-06 17:10:17]
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
777ER
Crew
Topic Author
Posts: 9863
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:04 pm

RE: Black Boxes In The Tail?

Fri May 07, 2010 12:30 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 1):

Yes I'm talking about the vertical fins as they alwways seem to float. Thanks for the clarification.
Head Forum Moderator
moderators@airliners.net for all Moderator contact
 
soon7x7
Posts: 2267
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 10:51 am

RE: Black Boxes In The Tail?

Fri May 07, 2010 12:35 am

I opened two threads about this concept and was boohood with all kinds of reasons why it wouldn't work which did not convince me their arguments were strong enough. The fact that in three total Airbus airframe hull losses, the vertical fin detached in tact and floated on the surface of the water...this would certainly result in rapid recovery of the data...the alternative is to continue, God forbid...future fishing in ocean depths for dead pingers...I think it is a no brainer...sorry I did not file the patent!...g
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2639
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: Black Boxes In The Tail?

Fri May 07, 2010 12:35 am

I am somewhat suprised that the FAA hasn't asked for atleast a study on the costs for a solidstate memory box to mirror the data on the recorder.

once you know the costs for an extra device, where you put it doesn't matter too much. Might even be cheap enough to locate several around the plane as the primary cost will be the interface with the existing system.
 
jolau1701
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:35 pm

RE: Black Boxes In The Tail?

Fri May 07, 2010 12:57 am

I wonder if flight data recorders (or the compartment they are in) can be designed so they can be ejected from the aircraft.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Black Boxes In The Tail?

Fri May 07, 2010 1:06 am

Quoting jolau1701 (Reply 6):

Why would you want to eject it from the airplane. In the case of AF447, your scenario would make it even harder to find them......and the wreckage.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
User avatar
ADent
Posts: 930
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

RE: Black Boxes In The Tail?

Fri May 07, 2010 1:35 am

They aren't in the vertical fin because they are semi-regularly accessed and you can't get to the fin easily.

You could put a remote recorder up there. Probably would have to be less damage tolerant to fit in smaller aircraft, but since it is a duplicate it would be possible.

There has been talk of eject-able black boxes. Probably would have to a remote recorder rather than the sole recorder. This would drive extra costs, extra weight, cause problems when it falls out accidentally, etc. It is possible though.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Black Boxes In The Tail?

Fri May 07, 2010 4:33 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 4):
The fact that in three total Airbus airframe hull losses, the vertical fin detached in tact and floated on the surface of the water...this would certainly result in rapid recovery of the data

That's great to help you find the vertical fin...but that's usually not with the aircraft. It would work, but you'd want to install separate pingers on the airframe so you could locate it independently of the black box.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 5):
I am somewhat suprised that the FAA hasn't asked for atleast a study on the costs for a solidstate memory box to mirror the data on the recorder.

The FDR *is* a solidstate memory box; I'm not really following you here. Many aircraft have a QAR anyway, which is exactly what you're describing (just not mandated by FAA).

Tom.
 
User avatar
Faro
Posts: 1494
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:08 am

RE: Black Boxes In The Tail?

Fri May 07, 2010 8:44 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 9):
That's great to help you find the vertical fin...but that's usually not with the aircraft. It would work, but you'd want to install separate pingers on the airframe so you could locate it independently of the black box.

Which leads to a concept already discussed on Anet last year with the AF447 tragedy: ejectable FDR's that steer clear of the airframe impact point. Technically possible I would think (tricky part is determining the ejection trigger criteria: G's, vertical speed, extreme attitudes at low altitude, etc) except that you will incur R&D expense as well extra airframe weight so everyone is against it.

Faro
The chalice not my son

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Starlionblue and 14 guests