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DocLightning
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For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Sat May 15, 2010 9:06 pm

So a question for those of you who fly passengers:

Leaving aside "do-or-die" emergencies, what's the highest bank angle you'd use with passengers aboard? What's the highest you're allowed to use? I'm assuming an Airbus won't let you roll past a certain angle. Will a Boeing?
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KELPkid
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Sat May 15, 2010 9:26 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Leaving aside "do-or-die" emergencies, what's the highest bank angle you'd use with passengers aboard?

60 degrees, to demonstrate a 2G level turn (only for passengers whose stomachs can handle that, though)  
Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
What's the highest you're allowed to use?

Well, according to § 91.307 of the FARs:

Quote:

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or


In other words, going beyond it is considered an aerobatic maneuver  


There are two exceptions to this reg, spin training an flight certification tests.
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PGNCS
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Sat May 15, 2010 11:30 pm

Doc:

Quick answers: 30 degrees in a transport category aircraft.

Airbus FBW in normal law will not allow exceeding 67 degrees, because a 67 degree banked level turn yields 2.5G, which is the maximum for a transport category aircraft.

Boeing does not limit roll.
 
cobra27
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Sun May 16, 2010 6:52 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1):
(only for passengers whose stomachs can handle that, though)

Every I mean every passenger from baby to creepy grandpa can handle that with absolutely no problem.
 
GST
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Sun May 16, 2010 8:40 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1):


There are two exceptions to this reg, spin training an flight certification tests.

So you'd do spin training in a pax plane?
 
Mir
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Sun May 16, 2010 9:24 pm

Quoting cobra27 (Reply 3):
Every I mean every passenger from baby to creepy grandpa can handle that with absolutely no problem.

The person whose stomach couldn't handle sitting in the back while I practiced a steep spiral (which was not even close to 60 degrees, and was even further from 2 Gs due to the descent) would beg to differ. It has nothing to do with how old or young people are - it's not the Gs that can get you, it's the sensation of motion that causes motion sickness. Keeping the bank angle down helps keep the sensation of motion down. I too am not too keen to venture past 45 degrees of bank in normal flight with pax onboard.

Quoting GST (Reply 4):
So you'd do spin training in a pax plane?

If the plane were certified for spins, yes. But I don't know of any airliners that are.

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flybaurlax
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Sun May 16, 2010 9:25 pm

In the 787 the aircraft will yell "bank angle" at you after you pass 35 degrees, and then it will try to level the wings. If you let go of the controls it will put wings level, but you can fight that and continue to exceed 35 degree bank. I know that a lot of the logic from the 787 is carried over from the 777, so I believe it holds true for the 777 as well.
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KELPkid
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Sun May 16, 2010 10:20 pm

Quoting GST (Reply 4):
So you'd do spin training in a pax plane?

Last I checked, all GA planes are certified to carry passengers...  
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DocLightning
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Sun May 16, 2010 11:29 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
I too am not too keen to venture past 45 degrees of bank in normal flight with pax onboard.

A typical holding pattern has some of the steepest banks that most passengers routinely see on most flights. How steep are those banks? ~25? 30?
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Aaron747
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Mon May 17, 2010 2:24 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
A typical holding pattern has some of the steepest banks that most passengers routinely see on most flights. How steep are those banks? ~25? 30?

Depends on the holding procedure and radius of the turn. I'd venture to say those turns rarely exceed 25 degrees of bank.

If you want to see some steep turns in a pattern - watch newly-minted private pilots when they overshoot the base to final turn. Lots of accident potential there  
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RaginMav
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Mon May 17, 2010 3:26 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
I too am not too keen to venture past 45 degrees of bank in normal flight with pax onboard.

Am I the only one here taught never to exceed 30 degrees of bank with paying pax onboard? Maybe I'm the crazy one here!?!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
A typical holding pattern has some of the steepest banks that most passengers routinely see on most flights. How steep are those banks? ~25? 30?

Holding patterns are typically flown with turns at a 'standard rate'; meaning 3 degrees per second. The bank angle necessary to attain that rate of turn is a function of speed. Normally you shoot for standard rate, with a 'limit' of 30 degrees of bank. Generally speaking, you are going slow while holding (conserving fuel), and thus a standard rate turn is attainable with less than 30 degrees of bank.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Mon May 17, 2010 4:07 am

Quoting flybaurlax (Reply 6):
n the 787 the aircraft will yell "bank angle" at you after you pass 35 degrees, and then it will try to level the wings. If you let go of the controls it will put wings level, but you can fight that and continue to exceed 35 degree bank.

That's a bit like the Airbus logic in Normal Law. At up to 33 degrees bank, the pilot can let go of the stick and the plane will retain the bank angle at that time. Beyond 33 degrees and up to 67 degrees the pilot has to hold the stick. If he lets go of the stick, the plane will go back to 33 degrees.
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KELPkid
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Mon May 17, 2010 4:26 am

Quoting RaginMav (Reply 10):
Am I the only one here taught never to exceed 30 degrees of bank with paying pax onboard? Maybe I'm the crazy one here!?!

Well, the OP didn't make the distinction between paying and non-paying....
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N353SK
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Mon May 17, 2010 4:46 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
A typical holding pattern has some of the steepest banks that most passengers routinely see on most flights. How steep are those banks? ~25? 30?

Any plane with a flight director banks at 25 degrees or less.


A little off topic, but I believe the unusual attitude recovery for the king air involves putting it into a 90 degree bank to not cut off airflow to the engines.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Mon May 17, 2010 4:46 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 12):
Well, the OP didn't make the distinction between paying and non-paying....

I didn't suppose there was one... is there?  
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KELPkid
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Mon May 17, 2010 4:51 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
I didn't suppose there was one... is there?

Well, a whole different set of rules applies if they are paying for passage...and an even different set of rules applies if they are paying for passage on a regularly scheduled flight   However, the airplane doesn't care, just the regulatory agency...   But I have to confess I don't know how those rules (Part 135 and part 121) address maxiumum permissible bank angle in flight.
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Mir
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Mon May 17, 2010 5:49 am

Quoting N353SK (Reply 13):
A little off topic, but I believe the unusual attitude recovery for the king air involves putting it into a 90 degree bank to not cut off airflow to the engines.

For a nose-up unusual attitude, that sounds normal for a larger aircraft like the King Air. But I think that has more to do with not loading up the airplane with negative Gs as you bring the nose down. Putting in a 90 degree bank will let the nose fall down much faster without putting much extra stress on the wings, and when you're about 10-15 degrees nose up you can start rolling out so that you end up wings level with the nose about on the horizon. I've only done it in a sim, but it's a pretty tame maneuver.

You definitely don't want to have a 90 degree bank in a nose-down unusual attitude, though.

Quoting RaginMav (Reply 10):
Am I the only one here taught never to exceed 30 degrees of bank with paying pax onboard? Maybe I'm the crazy one here!?!

I'm not carrying paying pax, so my standards adjust accordingly. Were I carrying paying pax, I'd aim not to exceed 30 degrees as well.

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Aaron747
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Mon May 17, 2010 3:18 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
I'm not carrying paying pax, so my standards adjust accordingly. Were I carrying paying pax, I'd aim not to exceed 30 degrees as well.

Unless that passenger is one's mother. Did a couple of turns around a point (a lone tree in a field to be exact) for mom's benefit once, probably around 45 degrees of bank at one point to get some G's into it - and had her swearing she'd never set foot in a Cessna again. At least she doesn't call them 'dinky' anymore  
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ThePinnacleKid
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Mon May 17, 2010 4:07 pm

Quoting N353SK (Reply 13):
Any plane with a flight director banks at 25 degrees or less.

Careful with the end all be all statements... the ERJ-145 banks at 27 degrees with the autopilot and F/D in full bank mode....
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PGNCS
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Mon May 17, 2010 6:24 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
A typical holding pattern has some of the steepest banks that most passengers routinely see on most flights. How steep are those banks? ~25? 30?

Good observation, Doc. In truth bank angle in the hold varies, especially with strong winds trying to blow you out of the pattern, so some bank angles may be shallow, while others will be right up against 30 degrees (some aircraft restrict maximum bank angle a bit more than others). DC-9 pilots are the real pros here, as the EFIS aircraft are MUCH more helpful in the hold!  
 
KELPkid
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Mon May 17, 2010 7:19 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 19):
DC-9 pilots are the real pros here, as the EFIS aircraft are MUCH more helpful in the hold!

Do diesel-9 drivers actually have to use the left-hand and right-hand rule to compute the hold entry method? Or, worse yet, time the hold ?    Oh, the humanity 
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e38
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Mon May 17, 2010 10:36 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 20), "Do diesel-9 drivers actually have to use the left-hand and right-hand rule to compute the hold entry method?"

Yes, they can, but more often they draw it out on a piece of paper or plot it out on the RMI!

also quoting KELPkid (Reply 20), "Or, worse yet, time the hold ?"

Yes, they do!

e38
 
barney captain
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Tue May 18, 2010 8:20 am

Quoting N353SK (Reply 13):
Any plane with a flight director banks at 25 degrees or less.

As obscure as the 737 is (ahem).....it has a 30 degree selectable bank angle position on both the FD and the AP.
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Starlionblue
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Tue May 18, 2010 9:34 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 17):
Unless that passenger is one's mother. Did a couple of turns around a point (a lone tree in a field to be exact) for mom's benefit once, probably around 45 degrees of bank at one point to get some G's into it - and had her swearing she'd never set foot in a Cessna again. At least she doesn't call them 'dinky' anymore

I once took an aerobatic flight with an expert (the late great Pierre Holländer). He said women tend to tolerate the Gs and maneuvering better (note this is first timers). The worst was apparently his grandmother (!) who kept asking for more.
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DocLightning
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Wed May 19, 2010 4:12 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 17):

Unless that passenger is one's mother.

According to FAR 122 Jewish mothers are classified differently from non-Jewish mothers. The maximum allowable bank angle with a Jewish mother aboard is 30°. Any higher and the mother will start squawking "Oy vey! Oy Gevalt!"

(Sorry, mods! I couldn't resist!)
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DAL7e7
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Wed May 19, 2010 7:10 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):

If you want to see some steep turns in a pattern - watch newly-minted private pilots when they overshoot the base to final turn. Lots of accident potential there

I'd drink to that. When I first started back in August I'd try to do that as well. Now I use rudder to counter the overshoot.

That being said, I've seen some student pilots put the airplane on its side to try to correct. I was always taught no more than 30 degrees of bank in the pattern and my instructor would stop the bank if I was looking outside and about to exceed it so that I would know what it looks like.

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VokinLoksar
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Wed May 19, 2010 3:25 pm

Quoting DAL7e7 (Reply 25):
I'd drink to that. When I first started back in August I'd try to do that as well. Now I use rudder to counter the overshoot.

Ignoring things like crabbing and slips to a landing, a rudder should only be used to maintain coordinated flight. If you're saying that you would rather apply more rudder with a shallower bank angle to correct for overshoot, that's the exact opposite of what you should be doing.

A coordinated steep turn is safer than an uncoordinated 20 or 30 degree turn from base to final. Keeping it under 30 in the pattern is good advice, but the other half of it has to be "and coordinated."

If it looks like you're going to overshoot by a lot, the best decision is to go around and try again. If you do want to try and get back on the centerline when it looks like a 30 degree bank will not be enough, add more rudder AND bank. Always keep an eye on the airspeed when doing this. The stall speed increases with the load, but you'll at least have a chance of recovery if you kept the ball in the center.
 
DAL7e7
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Wed May 19, 2010 4:38 pm

Quoting VokinLoksar (Reply 26):

I didn't mean I keep the wings level and just kick the rudder. I slip the airplane down but I don't use full deflection and add power so that the airplane just slides to the left and lines me up.

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Mir
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RE: For Pilots: Bank Angle?

Thu May 20, 2010 4:10 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 24):
According to FAR 122 Jewish mothers are classified differently from non-Jewish mothers. The maximum allowable bank angle with a Jewish mother aboard is 15°. Any higher and the mother will start squawking "Oy vey! Oy Gevalt!"

FIFY  

-Mir
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