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BALandorLivery
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Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Thu May 20, 2010 8:29 am

We sometimes see photo's where aircraft have had panels or radomes swapped with other aircraft for whatever reason.

One of the few ways we can tell is that there is a mismatch with the paintwork even though they have the same livery.

Does anybody know how/what templates are used to align up the stickers/paint?
Is there a start pont/datum on the aircraft to which it's referenced and all paint applied from that point.

Are lasers used to line things up?
Any painters out there?

Here's what I'm talking about.


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Photo © Jeff Miller
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Photo © Ryan C. Umphrey


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Photo © Ben Wang
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Photo © Sergio Domingos

 
474218
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Thu May 20, 2010 2:41 pm

The randoms and cowling are interchangeable. So they have been removed from one aircraft and installed on another. There will always be slight verations in the paint between aircraft.
 
BMI727
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Thu May 20, 2010 3:07 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 1):
The randoms and cowling are interchangeable. So they have been removed from one aircraft and installed on another.

I think that in at least some cases the radomes are detached and painted separately, which is how one got turned upside down and ended up on a UA plane. Also, it isn't uncommon to see radomes in completely different schemes on regional planes which of course keep a common spares inventory.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Rj111
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Thu May 20, 2010 3:14 pm

That UA 767 photo will have a radome from a 777 - they're interchangable.
 
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kanban
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Thu May 20, 2010 4:25 pm

initially all painting is indexed to water line zero.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Thu May 20, 2010 4:42 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 4):
initially all painting is indexed to water line zero

To add some explanation to that, there is a three dimensional grid to which airplanes are built with waterline and stationline being used to index paint. While they are not labeled on the outside of the aircraft, each of the points are identifiable and can be used for reference.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
B727LVR
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Thu May 20, 2010 4:43 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
which is how one got turned upside down and ended up on a UA plane.

Can you explain this one a litle bit more. Most if not all radomes I have worked on only go on one way, or did you mean the paint scheme was applied upside down?
I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to planes!
 
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BALandorLivery
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Thu May 20, 2010 4:54 pm

Waterline & Stationline.....now we're getting somewhere.

Can someone explain how painting/preparation begins at these points. Where are these points usually located?

How are radomes painted seperately if, like on some liveries, you have to line up the stripes exactly?
 
BMI727
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Thu May 20, 2010 7:51 pm

Quoting B727LVR (Reply 6):
Most if not all radomes I have worked on only go on one way, or did you mean the paint scheme was applied upside down?

Right. The radome was on the plane the right (and only) way. It was just that it was painted upside down, so the top of the radome was dark blue and the bottom was grey.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
474218
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Thu May 20, 2010 8:14 pm

Quoting BALandorLivery (Reply 7):
Waterline & Stationline.....now we're getting somewhere.

Can someone explain how painting/preparation begins at these points. Where are these points usually located?

How are radomes painted seperately if, like on some liveries, you have to line up the stripes exactly?

The following may help in understanding "Water lines/Butt lines/Fuselage Station lines:



Water lines, start below the surface and extend up. Example: the ground is waterline 19 (19 inches above WL 0), the cabin floor is WL 200 (181 inches above the ground).

Butt lines start at the center of the fuselage and extend out left and right. Example BL 0 is the middle of the fuselage the outer fuselage skin is BL 115 left or right (or 115 inches from the middle of the fuselage).

Fuselage Stations start forward of the nose run to the end of the fuselage. Example FS 83 is the tip of the radome, FS 2215 (or 2132 inches from the radome) is the end of the fuselage.

As you can see by the lists of abbreviations there are may other parts that have their own station lines.
 
rolypolyman
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Fri May 21, 2010 1:50 am

I'm actually wondering how they get the logos, shapes, and polygons painted so precisely... do they spray against plastic stencils? I can't even picture how a painter decides exactly where to hold the stencil and at what angle. If I was given a 777 to paint, I'd take an LCD projector and cast a template against the fuselage to use as a guide and use that with stencils. Funny how the whole process is so mysterious.
 
474218
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Fri May 21, 2010 2:07 am

Quoting rolypolyman (Reply 10):
Funny how the whole process is so mysterious.


Not mysterious at all. A base coat is applied then the areas that are going to get details are masked off and painted.

These pictures are of a BWIA TriStar having the new scheme in 1999.



Removing old scheme.





Base coat and masking.



Final result.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Fri May 21, 2010 4:51 am

Quoting rolypolyman (Reply 10):
I'm actually wondering how they get the logos, shapes, and polygons painted so precisely... do they spray against plastic stencils?

A lot of them are decals, not painted, in which case it's just a matter of positioning, rather than precise painting. However, for the painted stuff, you use big stencils.

Quoting rolypolyman (Reply 10):
I can't even picture how a painter decides exactly where to hold the stencil and at what angle.

Lasers.

Quoting rolypolyman (Reply 10):
If I was given a 777 to paint, I'd take an LCD projector and cast a template against the fuselage to use as a guide and use that with stencils.

Replace the LCD projector with a laser and you've got an OEM paint system.

Tom.
 
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BALandorLivery
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Fri May 21, 2010 12:10 pm

And why do we see rudders being painted seperately on new a/c?
 
boeing767mech
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Fri May 21, 2010 12:51 pm

Quoting BALandorLivery (Reply 13):
And why do we see rudders being painted seperately on new a/c?

Because the rudder is balanced. So it is painted and balanced before being fitted to the airframe. Then it is masked and then the rest of the airframe is painted. Most of the time the ailerons and elevators get the same treatment.

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
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kanban
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Sun May 23, 2010 5:23 am

If you can find it on Utube there was a good vid of the last Southwest state special being painted...
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Sun May 23, 2010 10:53 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 15):
If you can find it on Utube there was a good vid of the last Southwest state special being painted...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKnsyYbfC60
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
 
sccutler
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Mon May 24, 2010 5:01 am

I once saw an amusing picture, taken by a NWA Flight Attendant friend; it was an NWA DC-10 with a UAL radome on it. The radome had been damaged in a birdstrike, and a parts loan was organized.

Funny-looking, but it got the job done.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
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BALandorLivery
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Mon May 24, 2010 10:28 am

So it's safe to say that mis-matches occur due to different paint shops not quite starting the job at exactly the correct datum?

What do the painting instruction documents look like?

I assume they need to be carefully studied before applying a paint job?
 
474218
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Mon May 24, 2010 3:24 pm

Quoting BALandorLivery (Reply 18):
So it's safe to say that mis-matches occur due to different paint shops not quite starting the job at exactly the correct datum?


Yes.

Quoting BALandorLivery (Reply 18):
What do the painting instruction documents look like?


They are just standard blueprints (CAD drawings). I have several L-1011 customer liveries blueprints, I know one is BA, but not Landor.

Quoting BALandorLivery (Reply 18):
I assume they need to be carefully studied before applying a paint job?


No more or less than any other job.
 
Mender
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Mon May 24, 2010 7:43 pm

Quoting rolypolyman (Reply 10):
If I was given a 777 to paint, I'd take an LCD projector and cast a template against the fuselage to use as a guide and use that with stencils. Funny how the whole process is so mysterious.

How far away from the aircraft would you have to place you LCD projector? Would it be bright enough to be visible when it's that far back? Think about this as well. If you have a 1" mis-match on a 100" surface you only have an error of 1%. Whilst a radome may not be 100" high I bet it's at least 50" and 1" in 50 is only 2%

I'm not trying to ridicule you, I'm trying to point out it's not as easy as it first seems.

Even if you were to use a laser you'd have to ensure the first aircraft was exactly as high as the second aircraft or have a trick laser. In a manufacturing environment you could do this but it would be a lot harder painting an Airbus then a Boeing back to back.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Tue May 25, 2010 5:34 am

Quoting Mender (Reply 20):
Even if you were to use a laser you'd have to ensure the first aircraft was exactly as high as the second aircraft or have a trick laser.

No need for constant height, just need known reference points on the aircraft so the laser knows where it is in relation to the aircraft. Then it can project any shape on to any surface with very high accuracy, assuming it's got line-of-sight. Fortunately, aircraft are full of known reference points already (jack pads, major structure points, tooling references, etc.), so it's just a matter of choosing which one(s) you want to stick the laser marker on.

Quoting Mender (Reply 20):
In a manufacturing environment you could do this but it would be a lot harder painting an Airbus then a Boeing back to back.

Why? As long as your laser system knows the geometry or each aircraft (which was a prerequisite to using the laser in the first place), it doesn't care.

Tom.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Tue May 25, 2010 6:56 am

Quoting boeing767mech (Reply 14):
Because the rudder is balanced. So it is painted and balanced before being fitted to the airframe. Then it is masked and then the rest of the airframe is painted. Most of the time the ailerons and elevators get the same treatment.

I want to clarify boeing767mech's explanation.... This is done on the Boeing aircraft. Airbus does not balance their rudders, hence why you see a full tail painted on a brand new airplane vs. only rudder is painted on a Boeing aircraft.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
474218
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Tue May 25, 2010 2:02 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
Airbus does not balance their rudders,


How does Airbus prevent flutter in the case of multiple hydraulic system failure?
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Tue May 25, 2010 6:06 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 23):
How does Airbus prevent flutter in the case of multiple hydraulic system failure?

What does that have to do with painting rudders??    Stay on topic.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
boeing767mech
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Tue May 25, 2010 6:52 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 23):
How does Airbus prevent flutter in the case of multiple hydraulic system failure?

To quote the D & O of the flight controls, in AMM 27-00-00-0 on the A300-600 " All surfaces are actuated by irreversible hydraulically powered actuators. No surface is mass balanced."

And to quote 51-60-00-0 of the SRM of the same airframe. "Balancing of the primary and secondary contorl surfaces after minor or major repairs in accordance with the SRM is not required."

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Tue May 25, 2010 7:03 pm

Since we are now talking about the semantics of how rudders work (which is off-topic)....

Quoting boeing767mech (Reply 25):
" All surfaces are actuated by irreversible hydraulically powered actuators. No surface is mass balanced."

IIRC, on the A320, there are back-up actuators on the rudder and they are electric actuators as I understand it. Keep in mind, my time at F9 never did I once did rudder work, so I really don't know.

Quoting boeing767mech (Reply 25):
"Balancing of the primary and secondary contorl surfaces after minor or major repairs in accordance with the SRM is not required."

It says the same in the A320 AMM as well.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Tue May 25, 2010 11:05 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 24):
What does that have to do with painting rudders??    Stay on topic

It is on topic...it's why Airbus paints their rudders along with the rest of the plane and Boeing doesn't. This has obvious implications for paint mismatch, since Boeing paints the rudders far in advance, in a different location, and it's supposed to line up nicely with the rest of the fin livery once they paint that.

Tom.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Wed May 26, 2010 12:35 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 27):
It is on topic...it's why Airbus paints their rudders along with the rest of the plane and Boeing doesn't. This has obvious implications for paint mismatch, since Boeing paints the rudders far in advance, in a different location, and it's supposed to line up nicely with the rest of the fin livery once they paint that.

Alright, fair enough.... Thanks for the explaination.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
474218
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Wed May 26, 2010 1:33 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 24):
What does that have to do with painting rudders?? Stay on topic.


Your the one that brought up that Airbus rudders were not balanced (off topic?), all I did was ask about question how they can get away without balancing them?
 
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kanban
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Wed May 26, 2010 3:17 am

OK we got pictures of radome mis-matches... anyone have some of tail feather mis-matches or airline swaps..

The closed I ever saw was a flap wrapped with duct tape... and steaming behind
 
boeing767mech
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Wed May 26, 2010 11:39 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 30):
anyone have some of tail feather mis-matches or airline swaps..

There are pictures of a NWA 757-200 with a UPS rudder that was taken here in Boston when the highly skilled replacement workers the NWA hired ran the hanger doors into the rudder of one of the airplanes, Because they could follow the lines on the floor.

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Wed May 26, 2010 4:18 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 29):
Your the one that brought up that Airbus rudders were not balanced

I brought it up for a reason, so that people here don't get confused that all rudders are balanced regardless of aircraft type. I know Boeings have their rudders balanced (hence why you see a new airplane with a painted rudder only) while the Airbus aircraft does not (whole tail painted).

I do not know how Douglas did their rudders, I assume it is the same as the way Boeing does it?
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
474218
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Wed May 26, 2010 6:08 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 32):
I brought it up for a reason, so that people here don't get confused that all rudders are balanced regardless of aircraft type. I know Boeings have their rudders balanced (hence why you see a new airplane with a painted rudder only) while the Airbus aircraft does not (whole tail painted).

I do not know how Douglas did their rudders, I assume it is the same as the way Boeing does it?


I take it you don't know why Airbus doesn't balance their rudders, so I looked it up. Now I am sorry I did.
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Wed May 26, 2010 8:53 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 33):
I take it you don't know why Airbus doesn't balance their rudders, so I looked it up. Now I am sorry I did.

I must be missing something blatantly obvious here.... Please explain.
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
 
474218
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Wed May 26, 2010 9:58 pm

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 34):
I must be missing something blatantly obvious here.... Please explain



And get in trouble for going "off topic" again. I don't think so. I suggest you start a thread asking why Airbus does not "mass balance" their control surfaces!
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Thu May 27, 2010 10:14 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 33):
Now I am sorry I did.

No worries. Its my fault. I thought you were challenging me to see if I knew what I was talking about. I share the blame. My bad, sir.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
alwaysontherun
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Fri May 28, 2010 1:00 am

To go back to paint:

are there many aircraft paint manufacturers like you have in the Marine Industry?--> Sigma, Jotun, International for instance.

Or do airlines / manufacturers mix it up in house?


Cheers,

### "I am always on the Run"###
"Failure is not an option, it comes standard in any Windows product" - an anonymous MAC owner.
 
JT8DJET
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Fri May 28, 2010 1:04 am

Quoting boeing767mech (Reply 31):
There are pictures of a NWA 757-200 with a UPS rudder

Mind if I add a picture to your quote?


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Photo © Paul Kanagie
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Photo © LHR Photos

 
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kanban
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Fri May 28, 2010 4:32 am

Quoting alwaysontherun (Reply 37):
Or do airlines / manufacturers mix it up in house?



Boeing buys to a BMS specification from several suppliers for basic standard paint schemes.... I just don't remember who (of course with mergers and buyouts, that changes weekly) I recall supplying paint as part of initial provisioning packages to small airlines in the 70's however now I think they all buy direct.
 
B727LVR
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Fri May 28, 2010 8:48 am

Quoting JT8DJET (Reply 38):
Mind if I add a picture to your quote?

I wonder if UPS leased the rudder to them?
I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to planes!
 
474218
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Fri May 28, 2010 11:25 am

Quoting alwaysontherun (Reply 37):
are there many aircraft paint manufacturers like you have in the Marine Industry?--> Sigma, Jotun, International for instance.


The OEM's have there own specifications for things like paint. They then will approve the suppliers that are authorized to produce to that specification.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Mon May 31, 2010 10:49 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 30):
The closed I ever saw was a flap wrapped with duct tape... and steaming behind

Really duct tape, or speed tape?

Quoting kanban (Reply 39):
Boeing buys to a BMS specification from several suppliers for basic standard paint schemes.... I just don't remember who

PPG Aerospace coatings is one...I'm pretty sure DeSoto was another, although they've been bought so many times I can't figure out who they are now.

Tom.
 
Okie
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:32 am

Quoting B727LVR (Reply 40):
I wonder if UPS leased the rudder to them?



Or off a leased or retired plane sitting in the desert to be parted out.

Okie
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:23 am

Quoting BALandorLivery (Thread starter):
Does anybody know how/what templates are used to align up the stickers/paint?

There's an excellent video available on Youtube that shows how this is done (and, judging by the number of views, it's gone viral).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKnsyYbfC60

The painting starts at about 1:20. This is, as you can tell, an absurdly complex livery.

Tom.
 
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kanban
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:04 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 42):
Really duct tape, or speed tape?

duct tape.... had two engineers on board that confirmed it was not speed tape ... Those things happen on a 6am flight from Seatac to DC... for the leg to Cincinnati 80% of the passengers are Boeing
 
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BALandorLivery
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:02 pm

What about painting the window blinds?

Is it standard to paint them or just to pick a neutral colour for them all?

If they are painted to match the livery then how do they go about doing this?

Matching window blind:


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Photo © Jan Bialas



Not matching:


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Photo © Fengxiaoxi
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Photo © Roberto Bianchi

 
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kanban
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:59 pm

Quoting BALandorLivery (Reply 46):
What about painting the window blinds?

Is it standard to paint them or just to pick a neutral colour for them all?

If they are painted to match the livery then how do they go about doing this?



the blinds are in the interior side walls and one would have to strip the interiors, disassembly each blind, and for those that roll up, figure out how to hold it flat for painting.. the other problem is not many paints stick to that material so the would be prone to flaking.

Alternative there are exterior decals that are perforated so one can see through yet appear t be a solid surface from a distance.. this is used in advertising, you see them on buses, trams, trucks and cars.. the problem would be removing them from the window when designs change, or they become damaged...
 
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TZTriStar500
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:54 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 42):
PPG Aerospace coatings is one...I'm pretty sure DeSoto was another, although they've been bought so many times I can't figure out who they are now.

You actually named too that are actually now one. PRC-Desoto is now part of PPG. Akzo-Nobel is another large paint supplier as well.

Quoting BALandorLivery (Reply 46):
What about painting the window blinds?

Is it standard to paint them or just to pick a neutral colour for them all?

If they are painted to match the livery then how do they go about doing this?

Window blinds are not painted. Most are formed plastic in the color of the particular material.

Quoting kanban (Reply 47):
Alternative there are exterior decals that are perforated so one can see through yet appear t be a solid surface from a distance.. this is used in advertising, you see them on buses, trams, trucks and cars.. the problem would be removing them from the window when designs change, or they become damaged...

Aircraft do not use the type of perforated decals you mention as used on buses, cars, etc. that are installed over windows. No aircraft decal is purposely installed over a window or view port nor would it most likely be allowed as windows need to be inspected like all else and this would inhibit that. If desired, the stretched acrylic window would be replaced with an aluminum window plug.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
C5202QMX
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RE: Aircraft Painting Mismatches

Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:18 pm

Its not always just a radome that can be mismatched. There will always be slight variations from paint job to job. A lot of the time MX will rob a part/panel/cowl etc from one AC down for an extended time to place onto a serviceable AC with minor damage. It saves time in that you do not have to paint the part or panel that comes new to match. Most of the time the variations are so minute that pax will never notice. When we replace a radome we do not paint it, we will leave it white to send the AC out for revenue and match it to the paint scheme at a later date when MX is scheduled.

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