etherealsky
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Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:24 pm

Hi all, this is a pretty specific question but it's part of a broader desire to understand the liability/legal side of aviation.

When signing off a logbook entry for an inspection or work performed, do you (licensed mechanics) use the phrase "in accordance with" when citing an official publication (mx manuals, AC-43-13.1B, etc..) or do you just reference the publication after your description?

Today a question came up in class where the instructor mentioned that it is better to simply reference a publication, because by saying that you performed a task exactly "in accordance with" something, it could come back to bite you in the case of an incident/accident where a legal team could accuse you of not following something to the letter. (I might be misunderstanding his point, but that's what I got out of it.) Whereas simply referencing a publication gives you some leeway.

But then again, isn't it possible that you could be wrongly accused of not following a publication's instructions to a sufficient degree by simply citing a publication as a reference in a logbook entry?


I guess my larger question is; as mechanics, what do you all do to limit your exposure as far as liability is concerned? For example, I have heard that when doing something like a 337 modification/repair, it's better to make the logbook entry as vague as possible but go into lots of detail on the 337 itself. (This is just an example.)

Thanks  
"And that's why you always leave a note..."
 
jetstar
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:39 pm

As far as I know, by simply referencing the manual, you are still bound to follow the procedures within the manual. Since basically every repair has to be done in accordance with some approved published reference, I always signed it off I/A/W referencing the publication in more detail than just the name or number of the reference.

Case in point, AD notes can have different subsections with different methods of compliance based on different serial numbers, hours, days or cycles for the same model aircraft. To me just referencing the AD note by name would not be in full compliance unless you specify which subsection you are complying with.

As an A&P and also an IA, I always referenced in detail what documentation I used just to protect myself from some anal FAA inspectors. If it is a general repair, then I would use I/A/W 43-13.1B, but for more detailed work then I referenced it in more detail. When you dealing with FAA inspectors, you can ask 5 inspectors the same question and sometimes get 5 different answers, which one is right, whoever signs off on the Form 337, and even then it’s not a guarantee that the FAA will come back to you later for clarification and even a violation against you.

As far as a liability issue, I feel the more you reference, the more the liability issue is taken off your back and placed on the referenced information. You just shrug your shoulders and say “don’t blame me, I did it the way the book said to do it.”

JetStar
 
fr8mech
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:49 am

When my folks sign off an item, they will use a variety of phrases:

IAW (in accordance with)
per
with respect to
reference

or just the reference.

When the document goes on the page, you are certifying that the work you performed is by the document, regardless of the wording.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:58 am

There are two trains of thought on this issue. One is you instructor's. Be vague in your signoff and if you call to explain waffle. The other is be very specifc in your sign off. Your tack will many times depend on the owner of the logbook, ie your employer. In twenty years as an A&P, I've never truely work Gen Av. Never signed using AC 43, never done a 337. All my sign offs have been dictated by an aircarrier. It has varied. Some want chapter and verse for everything, others could care less what you write. Even at DL it varies. When I worked line mtc I could sign a tire change as per AMM. No specific ATA code. It was never kicked back. When it was AD related or an EA that type of sign off just doesn't fly. We need everything including revision number and date of issue.

Personally I favor the being as specific as I can. Working on the line that isn't always practical. Do we all run and look up every thing in the manual? No, many things are not even covered there. Those operations that you do a lot, don't get looked up. Is it the right way? No, but when you do them two or three times a week, you know how to change a tire. When I ran into something strange, off to the computer.

My advice, do what they want in class. When you get to a job, do what they want. If it's an AD, do it to the letter, and sign it that way. If you can't do the AD to the letter, paperwork is vague, you don't have the right parts, or tooling; STOP and walk away. If the company will not back you up, find a new job and call the Feds.
 
jetstar
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:21 pm

Quoting DALMD88 (Reply 3):
If you can't do the AD to the letter, paperwork is vague, you don't have the right parts, or tooling; STOP and walk away. If the company will not back you up, find a new job and call the Feds.

I agree with DALMD88 100% on this, do not comprise your integrity under pressure from your employer, remember it is your name and license number that is on the line for what you sign off on.

JetStar
 
wn700driver
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:57 pm

IAW is good for me, so long as the AMM specific to the model, series, and any applicable STCs, or ADs involved. Never had anything kicked back though.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:07 pm

Quoting etherealsky (Thread starter):
When signing off a logbook entry for an inspection or work performed, do you (licensed mechanics) use the phrase "in accordance with" when citing an official publication (mx manuals, AC-43-13.1B, etc..) or do you just reference the publication after your description?

I do, but I don't write the whole thing out. I normally write "Changed such-a-such thing on a such-a-such thing IAW AMM 00-00-00-000-00-0000-0000 or whatever /END/" always.

Quoting DALMD88 (Reply 3):
If you can't do the AD to the letter, paperwork is vague, you don't have the right parts, or tooling; STOP and walk away.

At my airline, if we can't do the AD, we have to get the supervisor and manager to confirm the steps/parts or whatnot before proceeding. It is also company policy not to do anything that a mechanic does not feel comfortable with doing.

Quoting DALMD88 (Reply 3):
If the company will not back you up, find a new job and call the Feds.

Oh, at my company, it is not like that. If the AD is not making sense or lack of parts or whatever, the job gets stopped until someone from the engineering or the manufacturer explains in depth on what needs to be done. Sometimes the FAA is called to get clarification. Calling the FAA is not a bad thing. If you don't understand something, always ask!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:35 pm

Some airline QA depts are very particular that you always use a MM ref for a log book sign off, even for everyday events. So a lot of technicians carry a list of AMM refs in their pocket so they can always quote one!
 
fr8mech
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:58 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 7):
So a lot of technicians carry a list of AMM refs in their pocket so they can always quote one!

That practice is discouraged here. Does it happen? Yes.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:53 am

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 7):
So a lot of technicians carry a list of AMM refs in their pocket so they can always quote one!

It happens yes, but the AMM is updated almost every month or two. I had one, but I use it for reference only and always cross check to make sure my reference is correct, then print out my stuff for the inspector.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:01 am

As per AMM .......... works fine.
The Manual reference will state the procedure followed,so is adequate.
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
777wt
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:58 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 7):
Some airline QA depts are very particular that you always use a MM ref for a log book sign off, even for everyday events.

How about this one...where can you find a reference to replace or install a new fuel cap when it was found missing?
 
wn700driver
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:00 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
It is also company policy not to do anything that a mechanic does not feel comfortable with doing.

Wow, what comapny do work for, lol. When I did that for a living, my company would just try to make you comfortable by saying helpful things like "are you done yet??" In fairness though, I did once take almost twenty five minutes to change out a brake/tire set.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
boeing767mech
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:30 pm

Quoting 777wt (Reply 11):
How about this one...where can you find a reference to replace or install a new fuel cap when it was found missing?

Boeing 757-200 AMM 28-11-04 4 Removal and Installation of the Overwing Fill Ports is the best we can do, since we don't use overwing fueling except in emergency situations. And we removed all the fuel caps from the single point fueling on all our fleet. The only airplane we had that required a fuel cap on the single point was the A-300's but they are now gone.

But at our little airline we only have to use a reference for a major sheet metal repair, and then we use SRM or a engineering autheration as a reference. All the other times we sign it off Removed and Replaced Overwing Fuel Cap per MM.

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:18 pm

Quoting 777wt (Reply 11):
How about this one...where can you find a reference to replace or install a new fuel cap when it was found missing?

Which Fuel cap....The overwing ones or the P28 Refuelling panel Fuel caps?
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
C5202QMX
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:03 pm

If I perform work exactly as the AMM states I will write, IAW.

A lot of the time when you perform work, the AMM will have a procedure for performing work IN another task. When I do something that is part of a full task, but the entire task is not necessary, I will write IRW for "In Reference With" such and such task or procedure.
 
Panman
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:33 am

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 7):
So a lot of technicians carry a list of AMM refs in their pocket so they can always quote one!

I've got a spreadsheet on my phone with all the B747 and A380 AMM/TSM/SRM references in it. That way I'm not running back to the line office to look up the references.

Panman
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:05 pm

Quoting Panman (Reply 16):

I've got a spreadsheet on my phone with all the B747 and A380 AMM/TSM/SRM references in it. That way I'm not running back to the line office to look up the references.

Don't you practically go through the AMM/Taskcard literature while performing a task.
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
boeing767mech
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:56 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 17):
Don't you practically go through the AMM/Taskcard literature while performing a task.

Do you pull the AMM for EVERY job you do, like a coffee maker or a reading light? This is why people have PalmPilots or Iphones with AMM references. I also have them in my Iphone to help find hard to find stuff like alimeter split allowance or the ever popular "low growling noise coming from XX hand engine during idle" which is written up alot in the winter time on our 757's and is normal when you have a Phase 2 with a Phase 5 combustor RB211-535E engine. The referance is a pain in the butt to find. That is why I have all my stuff written down somewhere.

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:16 am

Quoting boeing767mech (Reply 18):

Out here the Regulatory Authority insist that the Hardcopy/Softcopy is on hand before performing a task.
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
fr8mech
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:43 am

Quoting boeing767mech (Reply 18):
Do you pull the AMM for EVERY job you do, like a coffee maker or a reading light? This is why people have PalmPilots or Iphones with AMM references.

Carrying the reference around for a quick guide back into the AMM is ok, but, Mel is correct, the FAA insists that the reference be readily available at the aircraft when work is being performed. We've had a handful of AMT's who have had LOI's because of this.

We need to understand that this is not the same regulatory environment we were in just 10 years ago. The scrutiny has gone way up and the FAA is camping out in facilities and just looking for violations. Throw in there the AMT's that are tossing their fellow AMT's under the bus and you can see why I insist that our folks have the paperwork in hand. Do we take some delays? Yup, but the compliance issue is number one, behind safety.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:16 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
Do we take some delays? Yup, but the compliance issue is number one, behind safety.

True...Thats why carrying the Ref in another portable source is ok.But when work is performed the Complete Document should be on hand & the latest revision too.
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
777wt
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:01 am

Quoting boeing767mech (Reply 13):
Boeing 757-200 AMM 28-11-04 4 Removal and Installation of the Overwing Fill Ports is the best we can do, since we don't use overwing fueling except in emergency situations. And we removed all the fuel caps from the single point fueling on all our fleet. The only airplane we had that required a fuel cap on the single point was the A-300's but they are now gone.

I had to replace 5 SPR fuel caps in one week on 737's!

2 on MEL and 3 came in missing and found by the fuelers, funny is that all of them came out of MDW and the fuelers there are up to no good....

Then one time I got a call for a ERJ-175, fuel cap sticking out of fuel door with possible damage to the panel behind it, lucky it was just some paint scratches. Whoever was fueling that plane in ORD must have been daydreaming.

I just sign it off 'as required'....same goes for headsets missing...I would like to know how did 7 headsets and 5 normal checklists go missing in one week....  



Then we have the calls for boarding music/safety CD missing 10 times in one week...there's no ref in ch 25 or ch 44, gets me so annoyed that I tell them we're out of stock even when there's a few.

If they write it in the can, I MEL it!...and then they sigh and get out the mega phone and voice instruction from their FA guide.
 
777wt
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:19 am

Quoting boeing767mech (Reply 18):
Do you pull the AMM for EVERY job you do, like a coffee maker or a reading light? This is why people have PalmPilots or Iphones with AMM references. I also have them in my Iphone to help find hard to find stuff like alimeter split allowance or the ever popular "low growling noise coming from XX hand engine during idle" which is written up alot in the winter time on our 757's and is normal when you have a Phase 2 with a Phase 5 combustor RB211-535E engine. The referance is a pain in the butt to find. That is why I have all my stuff written down somewhere.

David



MEL,

We're not gonna go to the shop to pull reference for every little stupid stuff the flight crew writes in the can instead of verbally telling us.

Reading lights, coffee makers not brewing or leaking, recline cables, armrest caps, placards, etc are what they like to write up.

IMHO it's not worth the time and hassle for simple stuff.

It would be nice to have the whole airport wi-fi and we have a portable touchscreen or one in the truck to find the AMM ref on the fly for this stuff.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Question For A&P's - Logbook Entries

Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:01 pm

Quoting 777wt (Reply 23):

It would be nice to have the whole airport wi-fi and we have a portable touchscreen or one in the truck to find the AMM ref on the fly for this stuff.

Thats what we do,Use Boeing Portable Toolbox & a high speed portable wireless modem.
But if a PDR has an entry ,then the rectification will need AMM reference.
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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