eugegall
Topic Author
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:13 pm

Can Someone Operate Under Someone Else's AOC

Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:22 pm

Lets say someone wanted to start an airline and leased a 737-300.

Could they contact another company that has an AOC to do a deal on operating under theirs? Is it really that simple?
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3553
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: Can Someone Operate Under Someone Else's AOC

Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:29 pm

Yes, although if they are not currently flying the type of a/c ypu want to use then they have to put it under their AOC which takes some time and money. DirectAir uses Xtra Airways for their flights with a B734.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
User avatar
GCT64
Posts: 1306
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

RE: Can Someone Operate Under Someone Else's AOC

Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:38 pm

Yes - a couple of examples from the UK: this was the model used in the early days of Easyjet (ended up hugely successful) and the early (in fact the only) days of Varsity Express (ended up hugely unsuccessful).

Based on my very crude statistical analysis, this business model is no indicator of future success or failure  
Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,B190,(..54 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3553
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: Can Someone Operate Under Someone Else's AOC

Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:48 pm

And generally you pay for the paint (or stickers) if that's important to you....about $20K for a 733
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
eugegall
Topic Author
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:13 pm

RE: Can Someone Operate Under Someone Else's AOC

Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:51 pm

Ok Great.

So are there companies out there that will openly allow another company to operate under their AOC?

If they do operate with a 734 would it take much time to start flying? Also do we have to use the crew from the company that owns the AOC?

Thanks again all
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3553
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: Can Someone Operate Under Someone Else's AOC

Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:08 pm

Quoting eugegall (Reply 4):
Also do we have to use the crew from the company that owns the AOC?

Yes, otherwise it is known as a dry/damp lease and then you have to have your own AOC. The only thing you are responsible for is the fuel outside of the hourly rate. You want an ACMI (Aircraft,Crew,MX and Insurance) lease. You just focus on putting pax on the plane. There maybe some FAA paperwork but your lessor should be able to help you out.

You can start flying the minute you have the cash and the a/c is available. Usually operators want a minimum number of garaunteed hours with about half upfront. These are general rules.

Just curious, what cities are you thinking about serving?
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
eugegall
Topic Author
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:13 pm

RE: Can Someone Operate Under Someone Else's AOC

Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:20 pm

Initially London - Geneva

I was prompted when a friend who owns 3 hotels in the French alps said he would buy half of the seats up front for the whole ski season.

The other 7 months of the year I'm not sure, Would maybe service London - Lanzarote daily as i know there are limited flights there.

Would i be able to dress the crew I'm my own uniform and customize the livery on the outside of the aircraft?

Thanks

[Edited 2010-06-18 12:20:51]
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3553
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: Can Someone Operate Under Someone Else's AOC

Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:31 pm

Quoting eugegall (Reply 6):
Would i be able to dress the crew I'm my own uniform and customize the livery on the outside of the aircraft?

You probably could work out the uniform thing with the lessor and you can definitely do a new livery but your lessor will want a commitment from you b/c if you grow broke they have to spend the money to paint it back. I'd think they would want more than a 3 month commitment.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
eugegall
Topic Author
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:13 pm

RE: Can Someone Operate Under Someone Else's AOC

Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:41 pm

I would want to commit to more than 3 months up front anyway for my peace of mine!

lastly. could i sell the seats i have left though a travel agent? I guess i can!
 
JRadier
Posts: 3944
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: Can Someone Operate Under Someone Else's AOC

Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:05 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 5):
The only thing you are responsible for is the fuel outside of the hourly rate. You want an ACMI (Aircraft,Crew,MX and Insurance) lease.

that would not only mean aranging (and paying) for fuel yourself, but also navigation fees, landing fees, handling fees etc. Especially the navigation fees are very tricky as they are charged on the operating flight number (IIRC), which is the one of your lessor. It makes more sense to lease it on an ad-hoc basis (or everything included).
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
eugegall
Topic Author
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:13 pm

RE: Can Someone Operate Under Someone Else's AOC

Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:44 pm

Quoting JRadier (Reply 9):

The problem with Ad-hoc is that its more suited for short term lease.

Im planning on 4 flights a day for the whole year. It would work out much better for me to do the work myself.

Please correct me if im wrong?
 
JRadier
Posts: 3944
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: Can Someone Operate Under Someone Else's AOC

Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:33 pm

Quoting eugegall (Reply 10):
The problem with Ad-hoc is that its more suited for short term lease.

Im planning on 4 flights a day for the whole year. It would work out much better for me to do the work myself.

Please correct me if im wrong?

Ad-hoc indeed isn't the best thing, but it comes closer than normal ACMI lease. For example navigation fees, and I assume landing fees (though I am not sure), are by default charged to the operating carrier. And the question really is how much sense it makes when you basically lease-in the entire operation to contract handling etc yourself. It will be the operating carrier that will make all the operational decisions, and will need to be in contact with the handler, so why put yourself in there as a middle man. I'd just lay out the requirements to the operating carrier and have them deal with the contracting. They are far more suitable to asses what they need from the handler than you as a commercial only carrier are.

but that's just my 2 cents.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos