Longhornmaniac
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FAA: No More "Taxi To" Instructions

Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:00 pm

Apologies if this is a double post, didn't see it discussed.

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N7110.528.pdf

All taxi instructions must now include a specific clearance to cross runways, whereas before a "taxi to" instruction was presumed to have cleared you to cross any runway (active/inactive, or closed).

Furthermore, if there is more than one runway to be crossed, a second runway crossing clearance cannot be issued until the plane/vehicle has crossed the first one.

I have mixed feelings about this. I remember as a student pilot having to ask whether or not that instruction included a clearance to cross a runway, and thought there was certainly some room for confusion. It is definitely safer in some ways, because it was more possible to "forget" about a plane crossing, if it was done well in advance. In doing so, it was possible for a runway incursion.

On the flip side, it creates more congestion on the radios. At big airports where crossing multiple runways is often the norm (DFW, for example), it might slow things down a bit.

All in all, I think it's probably a good move.

Your thoughts?

Cheers,
Cameron

Edit: I should add, most airports should be able to issue a single crossing clearance for multiple runways, provided they are within 1,000 feet. This will cut down on the number of communications, so my "flip side" above may not be as big a deal as I initially thought.

[Edited 2010-07-02 15:04:17]
Cheers,
Cameron
 
Ward86IND
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RE: FAA: No More "Taxi To" Instructions

Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:26 pm

I think it's better this way. As it was, you already had tons of pilots confirming instructions to cross runways anyway, especially GA pilots unfamiliar with the airport. This way, if a pilot takes a wrong turn on a taxiway and comes up to a runway and controller doesn't notice, if the pilot wasn't given instructions to cross a runway he will know right away he messed up and will stop. The way it was before, that same pilot who takes a wrong turn may assume he is still on track and assume that his route takes him across a runway, creating a runway incursion. I think the new way is more straightforward and there is no question in the pilot's mind now when he/she comes up to a runway, whether he/she is supposed to cross or not.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: FAA: No More "Taxi To" Instructions

Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:17 pm

Hmm it definitely won't help with radio congestion. With the old fashion way any proficient pilot would know that unless told otherwise you're cleared to cross all runways. And if you had any doubt, all you had to do was ring-up ATC and ask. Also seems to me that its an attempt to remove liability on ATC's side and make pilots have more responsibility while taxiing, which is fine I guess.

However it does seem it may be safer overall, specially in case like this:

Quoting Ward86IND (Reply 1):
The way it was before, that same pilot who takes a wrong turn may assume he is still on track and assume that his route takes him across a runway, creating a runway incursion. I think the new way is more straightforward and there is no question in the pilot's mind now when he/she comes up to a runway, whether he/she is supposed to cross or not.


[Edited 2010-07-02 16:19:02]
 
vikkyvik
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RE: FAA: No More "Taxi To" Instructions

Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:21 am

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Thread starter):
Edit: I should add, most airports should be able to issue a single crossing clearance for multiple runways, provided they are within 1,000 feet. This will cut down on the number of communications, so my "flip side" above may not be as big a deal as I initially thought.

Are you saying that you think that should be the case, or that with these rules, that will be the case?

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2):
With the old fashion way any proficient pilot would know that unless told otherwise you're cleared to cross all runways.

I'm not a pilot, but right away, that seems like the opposite of what you'd want. Kind of like saying that if a traffic light is out, you're cleared to drive across the intersection, which is a great way to get into an accident. Instead, treat it like a 4-way stop like you're supposed to, and make sure it's clear before you go.

Quoting Ward86IND (Reply 1):
The way it was before, that same pilot who takes a wrong turn may assume he is still on track and assume that his route takes him across a runway, creating a runway incursion. I think the new way is more straightforward and there is no question in the pilot's mind now when he/she comes up to a runway, whether he/she is supposed to cross or not.

That's a good point I hadn't thought of.

At the end of the day, it'd seem to me that safety would trump slightly increased radio congestion (assuming said congestion doesn't decrease safety more).
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Ward86IND
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RE: FAA: No More "Taxi To" Instructions

Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:57 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 3):
Are you saying that you think that should be the case, or that with these rules, that will be the case?

With the new rules, that will be the case.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 3):
I'm not a pilot, but right away, that seems like the opposite of what you'd want. Kind of like saying that if a traffic light is out, you're cleared to drive across the intersection, which is a great way to get into an accident. Instead, treat it like a 4-way stop like you're supposed to, and make sure it's clear before you go.

Well, it's worked pretty good for a long time. The old way, if the controller issues taxi instructions, it is implied that any runways that need to be crossed during the course of the said taxi route are to be crossed, unless the controller explicitly says "hold short runway x." Every pilot should know this. However, many pilots check for confirmation upon reaching the runway anyway, whether it be because they are unfamiliar with the field, or just being extra careful. I don't see anything wrong with that. The controller could have made a mistake, you never know. With the new way, it removes any doubt in the pilot's mind, so I think it will be better and I will feel more comfortable as a pilot.
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Alias1024
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RE: FAA: No More "Taxi To" Instructions

Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:42 am

Overall I think it's a good change. Anything that can reduce confusion and the possibility of a runway incursion gets a thumbs up from me.
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KELPkid
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RE: FAA: No More "Taxi To" Instructions

Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:14 am

If you ask me, about time.

Crossing a runway should be treated like crossing a freeway at grade in your car. How often does that happen?  
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HAWK21M
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RE: FAA: No More "Taxi To" Instructions

Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:12 pm

Its better to be specific & this does just that....The problem would be the extra chatter,but a worthy price to pay.
regds
MEL.
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runner13
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RE: FAA: No More "Taxi To" Instructions

Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:03 am

I've been working with the new rules for a couple of days. I always issued runway crossings when issuing taxi instructions. The biggest change for me anyway is the phraseology. Instead of taxi to runway xxx. It's runway xxx taxi via. That's the only real change for us. I used to not issue crossing intructions when a runway was inactive while working ground but i found out about 50% of pilots would ask to cross, so I just started including crossing instructions in my taxi clearance.
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: FAA: No More "Taxi To" Instructions

Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:18 pm

Quoting runner13 (Reply 8):
I've been working with the new rules for a couple of days. I always issued runway crossings when issuing taxi instructions. The biggest change for me anyway is the phraseology. Instead of taxi to runway xxx. It's runway xxx taxi via. That's the only real change for us. I used to not issue crossing intructions when a runway was inactive while working ground but i found out about 50% of pilots would ask to cross, so I just started including crossing instructions in my taxi clearance.

I've found the same thing, and have added crossing instructions for years, however, I have found with the new hold short rules, ocaisionally I have forgotten about a plane holding short of a runway, causing a bit of a back up. I'm sure its only worse at really big airports. At least until the wavers come in, then it will just be a little airport problem.
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: FAA: No More "Taxi To" Instructions

Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:49 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2):
Hmm it definitely won't help with radio congestion. With the old fashion way any proficient pilot would know that unless told otherwise you're cleared to cross all runways. And if you had any doubt, all you had to do was ring-up ATC and ask. Also seems to me that its an attempt to remove liability on ATC's side and make pilots have more responsibility while taxiing, which is fine I guess.

I don't think it's about removing liability. It's about keeping everybod safe and making things more clear; IMHO. As stated by many and I hear it all the time, many pilots hold short anyway and ask for clearance. This way, you get EVEYONE on board doing the same thing. Not some pilots stopping, others following what is intended. Some controllers issuing RWY instructions and other not.
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