BAfan
Topic Author
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Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:13 pm

It has been mentioned a few times to me recently that there will be a pilot shortage in the future as many older pilot's retire and there is not enough people training to cope with the expect growth in demand.

Clearly, the main barrier to entry into this career field is the high cost of training which I am guessing averages around £60,000.

Therefore I am asking whether it is likely that we will see airlines beginning to open up sponsorship/cadet training programmes, where the airline pays for the training. I know that many airlines used to operate schemes like this in the past.

I know there are some programmes already running, but from what I can gather, the majority of these require the applicant to already have some flying experience.

If we don't see such programmes, what will be the solution to this problem?
 
swa4life
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:19 pm

There will be no shortage,.. In fact it's quite the opposite..
 
Rj111
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:20 pm

Quoting BAfan (Thread starter):
It has been mentioned a few times to me recently that there will be a pilot shortage in the future as many older pilot's retire

Well, there won't be.
 
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lightsaber
Crew
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:03 pm

Quoting swa4life (Reply 1):
There will be no shortage,.. In fact it's quite the opposite..

Sad but true. We just left the greatest boom of our lifetime. Those years were as good as it gets.

Quoting BAfan (Thread starter):
Therefore I am asking whether it is likely that we will see airlines beginning to open up sponsorship/cadet training programmes, where the airline pays for the training. I know that many airlines used to operate schemes like this in the past.

Do you see the business jet providers paying a living wage for co-pilots?    Heck, most can still charge! That alone should let you (BAFan) how much slack there is in available pilots.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
av8rphx
Posts: 683
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:05 pm

There are several hundreds of qualified pilots out of jobs right now, there is no shortage.
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:26 pm

Things may get tight after 2012 when retirements start again, but in the meantime jobs are hard to come by. Even then, much of the experience that's on the street may have decided to start over in other professions and not return to the cockpit.
 
BAfan
Topic Author
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:30 pm

I was referring to a shortage in the medium to long term, not in today's current climate when thousands of pilots have been let go due to the poor economic climate.

I know there are still plenty of guys and girls looking for work, I fly with new crew all the time!  

I didn't mean to offend anyone with this post.

 
 
DualQual
Posts: 674
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:39 pm

Quoting BAfan (Reply 6):
I was referring to a shortage in the medium to long term, not in today's current climate when thousands of pilots have been let go due to the poor economic climate.

There has been an impending pilot shortage since Orville and Wilbur first hit the beach in 1903. Simply put, everyone talks about some looming pilot shortage but there is no such thing. The existence of Nessie and Atlantis is far more likely than any looming pilot shortage.
There's no known cure for stupid
 
silentbob
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:46 pm

Quoting DualQual (Reply 7):
There has been an impending pilot shortage since Orville and Wilbur first hit the beach in 1903. Simply put, everyone talks about some looming pilot shortage but there is no such thing. The existence of Nessie and Atlantis is far more likely than any looming pilot shortage.

Just before the age 65 law was implemented, there was a shortage at the regional level. And we are only a couple years from it starting all over again. Look at the ages of major airline pilots in the US and you will see that some will turn over a majority of their pilot ranks in the next decade.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 5):
Even then, much of the experience that's on the street may have decided to start over in other professions and not return to the cockpit.

That's going to make it even more interesting.
 
m11stephen
Posts: 372
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:53 pm

There are over 7000 furloughed pilots in the US right now. There is no shortage...
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
flymia
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:14 pm

Quoting BAfan (Thread starter):
It has been mentioned a few times to me recently that there will be a pilot shortage in the future as many older pilot's retire and there is not enough people training to cope with the expect growth in demand.
I have heard about a pilot shortage since 2002 and there is always one coming up. Every pilot training school will tell you this no matter what the case is.
Clearly, the main barrier to entry into this career field is the high cost of training which I am guessing averages around £60,000.

If you love to fly and do not want to join the military then go for it, you could probably do it cheaper at a local FBO but besides for military there is no other way. I reccomend get your PPL first make sure you really love it.

Quoting Av8rPHX (Reply 4):
several hundreds of qualified pilots

Hundred? More like Thousands.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
ZKSUJ
Posts: 6808
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:00 am

Pilot shortage seems to be a way of flying schools tricking students to do their courses. Truth is its a long hard road to be in the frame to even get an interview...

But in saying that, there are the lucky few out there who get in and bypass the hard yards due to their country of birth etc etc...
 
affirmative
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:52 pm

This is a debate that's been going for a while now and all depends on who you ask. Of course the americans don't agree with there being a shortage because of the furloughing of pilots in the US but there is a bigger picture that spans outside the americas.

First; After raising the age to 65 the airlines got some breathing room meaning that a lot of captains could stay on for at least another 5 years. In some countries they had a rule saying that the F/O had to be below 40 for captains to fly after their 60th birthday. This also became a problem with an aging pilot base and now that rule changed to below 60 in most countries.

Second; We can se today that ALL the ME carriers EK, EY and QR, to name the big ones, are in dire need of pilots. They will have to change policy to be able to recruit more quite soon.

Third; The business is turning back up, number of passengers are increasing after the downturn and volcanos and whatnot. But most Airlines are in pretty bad shape and it will take some time before they start hiring again. And they are more wary these days for a new downturn so they will be extremely careful.

Fourth; Because of the downturn the downscaling of pilot education has been massive. This in turn means that when airlines will start looking for new pilots there will not be enough being trained either.

So, there are things that point to the fact that there will be a shortage. If you take my first point for example the amount of pilots born in the babyboom 1940s and 1950s are at close to 30% in many of the bigger companies which is becoming a bigger problem every day. People will have to retire and someone will have to take their seat. This coupled with a rise in passenger traffic will be reason to hire more pilots. Probably less so in the US but more in China, Middle East and rest of Asia.

A previous thread on the subject: Future Pilot Shortage? (by m11stephen Apr 13 2010 in Civil Aviation)

Cheers and happy flying
I love the smell of Jet-A1 in the morning...
 
atct
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:15 pm

Quoting affirmative (Reply 12):
We can se today that ALL the ME carriers EK, EY and QR, to name the big ones, are in dire need of pilots.

Raise the pay and benefits...and not living in the Middle East...and many of us would fly there. (Treating crews like shit doesnt help their HR departments that much as well...) Before I get flamed, I have many friends and former colleagues at Emirates, FlyDubai, Jet Airways, Kingfisher etc.

ATCT
Trikes are for kids!
 
MrChips
Posts: 933
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:10 am

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 11):
Pilot shortage seems to be a way of flying schools tricking students to do their courses.

In North America (mostly the US), the "pilot shortage" touted a few years ago feels like a fabrication by the regional airlines and the big, commercial "license mill" flying schools. How can you keep labour cost down? By having a readily available pool of pilots who are more than willing (desperate, even) to fly for criminally low pay, which is in turn justified by the size of the labour pool chasing the jobs that are available.

[Edited 2010-07-07 19:12:13]
Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
 
saab2000
Posts: 1216
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:30 pm

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 9):
There are over 7000 furloughed pilots in the US right now. There is no shortage...

This number does not tell the whole truth. Let's use AA as an example. They have about 2000 on furlough. They will be doing well if they get 25% of those to return. Many have found new jobs and will never return to AA. Why should they if they are now medium seniority captains at JetBlue? Same with the furloughed Midwest guys who have found work at AirTran or JetBlue. But their numbers are still out there as furloughed.

When I started working at my current carrier I talked with many United pilots who said that United wouldn't hire for 10+ years due to the high numbers of furloughed pilots. Suddenly they started recalling and for every 3 who got the return call, only 1 would actually return.

I predict that unless there is a huge reduction in the number of RJs, there will be a 'tightening' of the market for pilots at the RJ level, starting in about 2 years. There is already a trickle of hiring at a number of companies like JetBlue, Delta, AirTran, Virgin America, etc. Many airlines like AA and FedEx are very, very top heavy and will experience attrition in the dozens per month starting in December 2012. So while I don't predict an outright shortage, there will be movement.
smrtrthnu
 
413X3
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:59 pm

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:30 pm

Quoting Av8rPHX (Reply 4):
There are several hundreds of qualified pilots

I would say several thousand! And even more world wide!
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1060
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:39 am

Well I don't think there will be a shortage of either pilots or mechanics. .. Mechanics? Well they have been outsourcing even to other countries for years as for pilots? There will ALWAYS be pilots who will fly those shiny jets SJS Shiny jet Syndrome for next to nothing. As long as there are people who will do that you will never have a shortage. They can always lower the mins to get who they want if they need to.
 
cobra27
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:07 pm

Quoting BAfan (Thread starter):
I am guessing averages around £60,000.

maybe that is what it cost in US. You can get CPL IR ME for 50000 if you do it elsewhere in europe and a half of that in us.

Has there really ever been a pilot shortage?
 
flyby519
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:27 pm

We will see single pilot airliners before we see a real pilot shortage.
These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
 
YWG
Posts: 1055
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:11 pm

Quoting cobra27 (Reply 18):
Has there really ever been a pilot shortage?

WW2?

There is not and will not be a pilot shortage any time soon. In Canada, there is an over abundance of 200hr CPL wonders roaming around for jobs. I'd say out of 10 CPL 'grads", 1 will get a job. And then, the odds of that job being 100% legitimate, safe, paying reasonably and isn't slave labour is about 30-40%. That being said, those who get jobs via resume are 1 in 100. The other 99 work away on the ground paying their dues. It's a good way to get to know your staff. It weeds out the lazy and moronic people. By the time they reach flight line, you can almost guarantee it's a good individual.

I'm not very experienced with the American side of things. As far as I know, it seems to me that there are too many kids running around with 200hrs and CRJ "training" from the ridiculously priced aero universities. This will continue well into the future no doubt.
Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
 
flyby519
Posts: 1153
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:31 am

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:01 am

Quoting YWG (Reply 20):
I'm not very experienced with the American side of things. As far as I know, it seems to me that there are too many kids running around with 200hrs and CRJ "training" from the ridiculously priced aero universities. This will continue well into the future no doubt.

Same story here south of the border
These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:45 am

Quoting BAfan (Thread starter):
If we don't see such programmes, what will be the solution to this problem?

Assuming the reduction of shiny-jet-syndrome types of idiots who ruin it for the rest of us, the only way to attract more pilots would be to considerably improve pay and working conditions for starting pilots. It's insulting to having invested over $70k in an aviation education just to be treated as a slave with a starting salary below $30k at almost all regionals, that's food stamp eligible in some cases.

Also, it would help if those schools with zero-to-hero programs that invest more in marketing than in their goddamn fleet would close down, thus eliminating the SJS epidemic.

[Edited 2010-07-18 20:47:33]
 
LAXintl
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:41 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 22):
types of idiots who ruin it for the rest of us

It seems like you have envy of others.

At the end of the day its a matter of supply and demand, and there appears to be enough candidates that will happily work for $30k, or pursue those zero-to-jet jobs.
If you are in this business for money, I suggest you maybe reconsider as seemingly this business at the moment continues to have an endless number of people that will literally fly for food and supply of willing candidates exceeds global piloting jobs.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
cobra27
Posts: 939
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:44 am

I kind agree with LAXintl. Those guys who earn through hard labour all the money for the cpl ir me and possibly type more than deserve to be the pilots. Those old fags that got all training paid up and nice salary afterwards (to be honest I would complain if I had a pilot job like that) - that is a thing of the past.

The bad thing is probably that a perfectly good pilot can't be a pilot without money for training

If you like money you can go for traffic controller, it is way easier and requiers litteraly no investment.
 
m11stephen
Posts: 372
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:43 pm

As long as ERAU and the like, and their gullible students who think they will magically end up in the left seat of a A380, are around there will be no pilot shortage.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
413X3
Posts: 171
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:09 pm

ERAU is just full of kids who have wealthy parents and hand them everything. That's fine as the world has many of them too. My problem is their idea that they are Gods gift to aviation merely because they went to an overpriced and overhyped school
 
YWG
Posts: 1055
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2001 11:29 am

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:12 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 22):
Also, it would help if those schools with zero-to-hero programs that invest more in marketing than in their goddamn fleet would close down, thus eliminating the SJS epidemic.
Quoting YWG (Reply 20):
here are too many kids running around with 200hrs and CRJ "training"

I remember way back when I was just getting into aviation, Delta Connection Academy and the likes were very temping. But once you dig a little deeper, you can see how shitty these places are.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):
At the end of the day its a matter of supply and demand, and there appears to be enough candidates that will happily work for $30k, or pursue those zero-to-jet jobs.
If you are in this business for money, I suggest you maybe reconsider as seemingly this business at the moment continues to have an endless number of people that will literally fly for food and supply of willing candidates exceeds global piloting jobs.

Sadly this is the case. Most guys say screw it and take the low paying job thinking in the end they will end up in the higher tax bracket down the road. This isn't true as this competitive process has spilled into the airlines too. And now, you have captains of jet aircraft living out of trailers at LAX.

Quoting cobra27 (Reply 24):
The bad thing is probably that a perfectly good pilot can't be a pilot without money for training

Student loans help out in Canada for those who REALLY want it. There is always a "way" to glory.

Quoting cobra27 (Reply 24):
If you like money you can go for traffic controller, it is way easier and requiers litteraly no investment.

It's actually extremely difficult to become an ATC. Yes they get paid lots, but there job i stressful and the washout rate is extremely high. It's not like aviation where no matter how much you suck, so long as you keep pumping money into the flight school, you can keep going.

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 26):
ERAU is just full of kids who have wealthy parents and hand them everything. That's fine as the world has many of them too. My problem is their idea that they are Gods gift to aviation merely because they went to an overpriced and overhyped school

These people usually end up killing themselves flying a caravan in heavy icing anyways.
Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
 
atct
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:59 am

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 26):
Gods gift to aviation merely because they went to an overpriced and overhyped school

Amen

Quoting YWG (Reply 27):
It's actually extremely difficult to become an ATC.

Not really. Over the past 4 years we've hired a BUNCH of off the street people with no aviation background. Go to a CTI school, graduate, get hired, and study. 90% of the people that wash are those who dont have the mental skills to know when to buckle down and study...not because they cant do the job...they are just not willing to do what it takes.

ATCT
Trikes are for kids!
 
cobra27
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:57 pm

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:20 am

Quoting YWG (Reply 27):
It's actually extremely difficult to become an ATC. Yes they get paid lots, but there job i stressful and the washout rate is extremely high. It's not like aviation where no matter how much you suck, so long as you keep pumping money into the flight school, you can keep going.

True, because flight school themselves depend on your income. And you would get line training arranged for money also.
 
413X3
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:59 pm

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:47 pm

Quoting YWG (Reply 27):
These people usually end up killing themselves flying a caravan in heavy icing anyways.

But if they don't, they end up with the fighter pilot ego at what ever job they are currently in.
 
AKviator
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:19 am

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:25 pm

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 26):
ERAU is just full of kids who have wealthy parents and hand them everything. That's fine as the world has many of them too. My problem is their idea that they are Gods gift to aviation merely because they went to an overpriced and overhyped school

Now wait just a minute.. there are pilots who think they are Gods gift to aviation EVERYWHERE.
The wealthy parents bit is probably accurate for the majority of students there, however I will say I'm heading to ERAU with a family income of around $90k/yr, and the horrendous debt will be all mine to pay off. Its well worth it though, considering it's the world's top flight school     
 
mmedford
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:54 pm

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:09 pm

Quoting AKviator (Reply 31):
world's top flight school

That would be the USAF...
ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
 
m11stephen
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:16 am

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:48 am

The new 1500 rule will probably create a pilot shortage...
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:01 pm

Quoting AKviator (Reply 31):
however I will say I'm heading to ERAU with a family income of around $90k/yr, and the horrendous debt will be all mine to pay off. Its well worth it though, considering it's the world's top flight school

That's how Humpty Diddle stays in business. You can get a better education elsewhere for half the money. An airline hiring board could give half a damn what school you went to as long as you meet the competitive mins. Going to Riddle doesn't make you any more competitive,just proves your gullibility to those of us who have been around a while.  
 
m11stephen
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:16 am

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:17 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 34):
That's how Humpty Diddle stays in business. You can get a better education elsewhere for half the money. An airline hiring board could give half a damn what school you went to as long as you meet the competitive mins. Going to Riddle doesn't make you any more competitive,just proves your gullibility to those of us who have been around a while.

I almost fell for it too.  Then I went on airlinepilotcentral.com and asked some pilots what they thought about the school and realized what a scam it was. An Aeronautical Science Degree isn't worth the paper its printed on.  
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2249
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:55 pm

Quoting AKviator (Reply 31):
Quoting 413X3 (Reply 26):
ERAU is just full of kids who have wealthy parents and hand them everything. That's fine as the world has many of them too. My problem is their idea that they are Gods gift to aviation merely because they went to an overpriced and overhyped school

Now wait just a minute.. there are pilots who think they are Gods gift to aviation EVERYWHERE.
The wealthy parents bit is probably accurate for the majority of students there, however I will say I'm heading to ERAU with a family income of around $90k/yr, and the horrendous debt will be all mine to pay off. Its well worth it though, considering it's the world's top flight school
Quoting DashTrash (Reply 34):
Quoting AKviator (Reply 31):
however I will say I'm heading to ERAU with a family income of around $90k/yr, and the horrendous debt will be all mine to pay off. Its well worth it though, considering it's the world's top flight school

That's how Humpty Diddle stays in business. You can get a better education elsewhere for half the money. An airline hiring board could give half a damn what school you went to as long as you meet the competitive mins. Going to Riddle doesn't make you any more competitive,just proves your gullibility to those of us who have been around a while.
Quoting m11stephen (Reply 35):
Quoting DashTrash (Reply 34):
That's how Humpty Diddle stays in business. You can get a better education elsewhere for half the money. An airline hiring board could give half a damn what school you went to as long as you meet the competitive mins. Going to Riddle doesn't make you any more competitive,just proves your gullibility to those of us who have been around a while.

I almost fell for it too. Then I went on airlinepilotcentral.com and asked some pilots what they thought about the school and realized what a scam it was. An Aeronautical Science Degree isn't worth the paper its printed on.

AKviator...remember what I said about Riddle in the other thread where you asked about the sterotype of an ERAU grad. Well, these gentlemen know of what they speak and bear out my main points. I'm not telling you not to go there, but remember all of this well if you do, and good luck.

Aviation Schools Worldwide (by initious Jul 28 2010 in Tech Ops)

Another tip: the first thing industry people detest is having Riddle referred to as "the world's top flight school" and such. We all know about Riddle and have our own opinions, mostly for well-founded reasons; please don't tell us how great it is, that's how you get pigeonholed as a Riddle Kool-aid drinker. Humility is important when you are starting in any new profession, whether it's as a plumber, dentist, or pilot. Riddle students and grads that can't stop talking about the wonders of Riddle are not generally well-received by working professionals in the industry (e.g. the people who do airline interviewing). This is meant as constructive food for thought and nothing more.

Quoting mmedford (Reply 32):
Quoting AKviator (Reply 31):
world's top flight school

That would be the USAF...

Of course I agree with that! (But there's no need to brag...)  
 
AKviator
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:19 am

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:25 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 36):
Another tip: the first thing industry people detest is having Riddle referred to as "the world's top flight school" and such. We all know about Riddle and have our own opinions, mostly for well-founded reasons; please don't tell us how great it is, that's how you get pigeonholed as a Riddle Kool-aid drinker.

I see, and that ERAU is the best is actually not my opinion (I haven't even started there yet    ). Its just whenever I do research on the top flight programs, ERAU seems to always be at the top.

Although you're right, I shouldn't brag about it until I go and see if it's all it's cracked up to be  
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 36):
This is meant as constructive food for thought and nothing more.

And thank you for it! Any advice I can get from any airline pilot (especially an interviewer) is much appreciated  
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:07 pm

Quoting AKviator (Reply 37):
I see, and that ERAU is the best is actually not my opinion (I haven't even started there yet ). Its just whenever I do research on the top flight programs, ERAU seems to always be at the top.

According to whom?

Just my opinion, but I think you'd be better served by choosing a school where you can concentrate on a more useful degree, but where you can also work on your certificates as well. Auburn's Aviation Management degree is one such program. There are also other schools with similar things.

Keep in mind that a career change out of aviation may be necessary at some point.
 
413X3
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:59 pm

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:45 pm

Quoting AKviator (Reply 31):
Now wait just a minute.. there are pilots who think they are Gods gift to aviation EVERYWHERE.

True but the ones who were military pilots have an ego for a reason. They are much more highly trained and knowledgeable than anyone at ERAU.

But what I find ironic about the 1500 rule is that all these low time and inexperienced kids are now going to be training others their same inexperience and bad judgment!
 
AKviator
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:19 am

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:39 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 38):
According to whom?
http://www.topaviationschools.net/
http://ezinearticles.com/?Americas-T...-Flight-Training-Schools&id=434309
http://education-portal.com/articles...viation_and_Aerospace_Science.html
http://www.topaeronauticalschools.co...nautical-engineering-colleges.html

These are a few lists I find on Google. If you find any stating it isn't #1, or even in the top 5, please link them   Although I am going there in a few weeks, i'm trying not to be biased in my advocacy for the place. I'm just going by what I find on the interwebs.


Quoting DashTrash (Reply 38):
Keep in mind that a career change out of aviation may be necessary at some point.

I refuse!
 
AKviator
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:19 am

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:46 pm

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 39):
True but the ones who were military pilots have an ego for a reason. They are much more highly trained and knowledgeable than anyone at ERAU.

I won't dispute this. Military is definitly the cutting edge.
 
mmedford
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:54 pm

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:14 pm

As some one who knows several people screwed over by ERAUs flight program... Good Luck...

Just keep this thread bookmarked... So you can't say none of us didn't warn you prior too...when your up shit's creek without a paddle, up to your neck in debt & lacking true experience...

You want to seriously learn to fly?; go to your local Community College...get some degree in engineering of some sort...generic enough to where you can pull off competance in some field. Then drop $50k at your local flight school...

Several PROFESSIONAL CAREER'ED PILOTS here have tried to sell you on an actual game plan, because they have seen many who have gone down this route. You chose to drink the kool-aid ERAU is selling....

Don't get me wrong, ERAU is a great school....but it isn't the same ERAU, as it once was...

*gets off soap box as laundry is done*
ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
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RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:21 pm

Quoting AKviator (Reply 40):
These are a few lists I find on Google. If you find any stating it isn't #1, or even in the top 5, please link them Although I am going there in a few weeks, i'm trying not to be biased in my advocacy for the place. I'm just going by what I find on the interwebs.

I'm not going to look, only because my experience tells me Riddle is no better or worse than any other collegiate flight school out there. You get the exact same ratings and experience from UND, Perdue, Auburn, etc. It's all about how much money you want to spend on it. I could care less what those websites have to say. Quite frankly most line dogs who've been flying for decades don't think much about college flight program grads, and can tell which school you went to by how you do things. It's actually amusing at times.

Quoting AKviator (Reply 40):
I refuse!

I understand. So did I. Then I got married, had a kid, and got furloughed in the worst hiring environment since 9/11. You may find yourself with no choice other than to leave aviation, and having a degree in something other than bullshit can be a real savior. Not to mention medical issues. You never know when you'll find yourself with some medically disqualifying condition or illness.

Being an airline pilot might be the easiest job to lose through no fault of your own. Choose your academic path wisely. Relying on airplanes alone to keep food on the table is very scary and never a good idea.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 2151
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:39 pm

Quoting mmedford (Reply 32):
That would be the USAF...

No doubt, but as I said about ERAU earlier, it isn't for everyone. I'm not going to pretend to know much about the military, but I'd imagine if you show up with a "I'm here to fly" mentality, you probably aren't a popular guy.

Quoting mmedford (Reply 42):


You want to seriously learn to fly?; go to your local Community College...get some degree in engineering of some sort...generic enough to where you can pull off competance in some field. Then drop $50k at your local flight school...

Not a bad idea. But, I wouldn't encourage anyone to study something they don't want to be studying. At times, college is hard enough. No sense in forcing yourself to spend 4 or more years of your life doing something you really don't want to be doing. Heck, even if he ends up at ERAU, I'd encourage him to look outside of the very focused field of Aeronautical Science. There are other programs within the Aviation department that offer classes and education outside of how to fly an airplane. I came to ERAU with the intention of doing nothing but flying for the rest of my life. With 4 months or so until I'm done, I can see many, many other things in the aviation world that are just as interesting (if not more) than flying is. But when you limit yourself to nothing but flight oriented courses, you may not see that side of things.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
e38
Posts: 399
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 10:09 pm

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Wed Aug 04, 2010 12:49 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 43): "You may find yourself with no choice other than to leave aviation, and having a degree in something other than can be a real savior." and

"Choose your academic path wisely. Relying on airplanes alone to keep food on the table is very scary and never a good idea."

DashTrash, Very well said (except for the twenty first word in the first quote--I had to adjust it). Overall your philosophy is sound.

AKviator, none of us here on Airliners.net are trying to dissuade you from achieving your goal of being an airline pilot or attending ERAU--everyone has to have a dream--but make sure your dream is realistic and ALWAYS have a back-up plan.

When DashTrash wrote, (Reply 38):
"Keep in mind that a career change out of aviation may be necessary at some point."

you responded,

"I refuse!"

Just keep an open mind. Life doesn't always work out exactly the way we plan it. I wish it were so, but the reality is that occasionally it does not.

I wish you the best of luck at ERAU and I wish you well with your professional goals.

e38
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7207
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:38 am

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 39):
They are much more highly trained and knowledgeable than anyone at ERAU.
Quoting AKviator (Reply 41):
I won't dispute this. Military is definitly the cutting edge.

I'm not too sure about that. I have no doubts on their stick-and-rudder skills, but I've talked to more than a few military pilots and I always get the impression that they are trained to the absolute minimum necessary. One conversation that stands out involved a Marine(?) pilot that flew Harriers. An extremely nerdy and somewhat annoying classmate of mine asked him to explain the purpose of anhedral in the Harrier. I don't remember exactly what he said but I do remember said classmate and myself looked at each other with a WTF face, as his answer made no sense whatsoever, and a professor later confirmed this pilot was incorrect.

However I can vouch for the old school military pilots (which make 80% of the Aero Science faculty at riddle) are very VERY knowledgeable. However I can't say the same about the newer guys.
 
413X3
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:59 pm

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:05 am

everything military is just checklist and acronym bound. To quickly train the masses and send them out in one the many postings around the world. Yes it is true, even the military, along with education establishments, these days does the bare minimum. But that's EXACTLY why the 1500tt rule is bad. Instead of sitting in the right seat learning the first time how to do things right from an experienced pilots, these new kids are going to have almost 2k of basically useless hours who learned bad habits and arrogance.
 
n6238p
Posts: 373
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:35 am

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:15 am

Why is it that every discussion relating to pilot training always goes back to some form of ERAU vs. the world. Fact of the matter is where ever you go there are pilots from every background possible. What determines if you get hired is not what your school is but what the individual brings to the interview.

Of course theres going to be more ERAU pilots in the industry than any other school because well there are more students training at Riddle to fly that anywhere else. Same thing applies for the credibility of any military pilot. The military provides I'm sure excellent training and there are going to be an abundance of military pilots in the work force. But 121 or 135 companies will always have a diverse background of pilots. If anyone would like to, we can pull safety records of schools from all over the country and it'll paint a different picture than what it perceived on the internet. Does that prove anything though? Probably not.
To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 8536
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Pilot Shortage And Training Costs

Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:26 am

Quoting AKviator (Reply 40):
Although I am going there in a few weeks, i'm trying not to be biased in my advocacy for the place. I'm just going by what I find on the interwebs.

I really don't understand why you would waste your time when you can get the same education elsewhere at 1/3 of the cost. You believe everything you read online? Has it occurred to you that ERAU has paid in one way or another for those ratings? I guarantee if you were to visit the websites of 30 flight programs right now they would all sport variations on the sentence "our program is second to none and will give you the skills and experience airlines are looking for." Buyer beware.

Quoting AKviator (Reply 40):
I refuse!

You're still young and it's great to have passion, but you need to listen carefully to those of us who have been interested in the same path and were steered clear of it for one reason or another. You absolutely need to put yourself in a position to receive an education that will be useful to you outside of aviation. Not to mention that if you attain any marketable skills airlines will move you up the food chain faster as well whether you fly the line or not.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty

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