atpcliff
Topic Author
Posts: 108
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New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:41 pm

Hi!

US Congress Senate/House (the two halves of Congress) agreed to raise the minimums to 1500 hours. I believe it will take 2-3 years after the bill is signed to go into effect, so that the industry has time to adjust.

This means that a brand new airline pilot, flying in the right seat as a First Officer, will need 1500 hours of flying experience.

Currently, the minimum in the US is a Commercial Pilot's License, which you can get for as little as 188 hours of total time.

Even the European countries don't require anywhere near 1500 hours for new First Officers!

cliff
LFW
TRY. It's all you have control over, and it's what God wants.
 
RL757PVD
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:07 pm

I hope they clearly define airline pilot. A pilot flyinh around an airnet Barron doing cargo runs or an f/o on an E110 cargo feeder flight should be able to have less and I think those are great methods to build time before going to the regionals.

The only thing is good luck trying to get someone with 1,500 flight hours to work for $17,000/ yr
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
atpcliff
Topic Author
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:14 pm

I think that these new minimums will be for Part 121 airlines: Mesa, Great Lakes, Colgan, Pinnacle, Horizon, Frontier, Spirit, Allegiant, Compass, Delta, American, etc.

Yes, a 1500 hour guy will tend not to want to make the current starting regional salaries...some of them under $20K/year.
TRY. It's all you have control over, and it's what God wants.
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:15 pm

It will be interesting to see if the US military, especially USAF, will up aviator bonuses and active duty service commitments if the airlines have to hire like that. After the current 10 year commitment most have well over 1500 hours, but now it would be a huge pay cut to jump from 100,000$ a year as a 10 year major with aviation bonus to starting F/O at a smaller airline. I presume we will get more details on this bill soon?
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
Rj111
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:16 pm

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 1):
The only thing is good luck trying to get someone with 1,500 flight hours to work for $17,000/ yr

That's the first thing that came to mind. The impact could be quite large for the regionals.
 
Airport
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:16 pm

I would like to see a source please.

Cheers,
Anthony/Airport
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:31 pm

Quoting Airport (Reply 5):
I would like to see a source please.

Nothing has been passed yet, its still in the procedure stage. And seeing as its attached to the FAA re-authorization bill, its fair to say this may take forever to get passed (if ever).

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
dl767captain
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:00 pm

How many hours did most regional airlines require to be hired?
 
atpcliff
Topic Author
Posts: 108
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:06 pm

Hi!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...line-pilots-flight-experience.html

"U.S. pilots would need at least 1,500 hours of flight experience to get a job in an airline cockpit, six times the current minimum requirement, under a House-Senate agreement disclosed by a passenger advocacy group.

The agreement, part of broader aviation legislation being negotiated in Congress, was outlined by Senator Jay Rockefeller to relatives of victims in a fatal crash near Buffalo, New York, last year,...

The senator (Rockerfeller) believes legislation funding the Federal Aviation Administration, which includes the requirement, “is ready and he is hopeful that the bill will be considered this week,” she said. The West Virginia Democrat heads the Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee.
...
A 1,500-hour minimum exceeds the 800 hours approved by the Senate in March as part of $34.6 billion legislation to fund the Federal Aviation Administration. The House in October 2009 approved a 1,500-hour minimum in its version of the legislation.

The Air Transport Association, the Washington trade group for major U.S. carriers, told House lawmakers in a letter before their vote that carriers were concerned the requirement would result in “unnecessary and artificial barriers” for qualified pilots and reduce the applicant pool for carriers.

Congressional talks on the FAA bill accelerated last week in anticipation negotiations could be completed this week.
... "

cliff
LFW
TRY. It's all you have control over, and it's what God wants.
 
dl767captain
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:09 pm

Quoting atpcliff (Reply 8):

Great, happens right when I'm starting flight school to become an airline pilot haha
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:17 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 6):
And seeing as its attached to the FAA re-authorization bill, its fair to say this may take forever to get passed (if ever).

I somehow think it will pass, unfortunately for us low timers. Total knee jerk reaction IMO.

The retards in congress don't seem to grasp that the problem with the Colgan pilots was that they were OVERWORKED, not inexperienced or improperly trained. And sure, the captain had a few busted check rides but that's not uncommon.

I'd like to know how they plan to get more pilots considering nobody finishes flight school with over 300 hours. And just WHERE are those guys going to get 1500hrs from? CFIing? right... its pretty much impossible to find a flying job right now having less than 500hrs logged, even so a few years ago when the economy was somewhat better.

The only good thing that may come of this is that an actual pilot shortage MAY possibly become a reality, and then airlines would have to really raise their working standards and pay.

Quoting atpcliff (Reply 8):

The Air Transport Association, the Washington trade group for major U.S. carriers, told House lawmakers in a letter before their vote that carriers were concerned the requirement would result in “unnecessary and artificial barriers” for qualified pilots and reduce the applicant pool for carriers.

No shit Sherlock.   

Quoting dl767captain (Reply 9):
Great, happens right when I'm starting flight school to become an airline pilot haha

Yeah, good luck with that.

[Edited 2010-07-22 15:17:54]
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:24 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 10):

I somehow think it will pass, unfortunately for us low timers. Total knee jerk reaction IMO.

Nope, there is too much other junk in the FAA bill to deal with. Specifically the UPS vs FedEx union issue. Couple that with it being an election year, and if this thing doesn't pass within the next 4 weeks, its probably dead.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 10):
The only good thing that may come of this is that an actual pilot shortage MAY possibly become a reality, and then airlines would have to really raise their working standards and pay.

Nope, I'd almost say the airlines want this whole thing to happen, so that they can go to the MCPL concept. They'd love that, because then they'd really lower pay.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 10):
And just WHERE are those guys going to get 1500hrs from? CFIing? right... its pretty much impossible to find a flying job right now having less than 500hrs logged, even so a few years ago when the economy was somewhat better.

You would be surprised at the job market. In the saturated market of Daytona, I've been able to pull 2 CFI job interviews within the past week, at reputable schools, with very little dual given time. Its all about being in the right place, at the right time.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:37 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 11):

You would be surprised at the job market.

Well, I know everybody from CFI class is jobless. The few friends that I have with flying jobs only got them because they got hired before the "depression", and they hate their jobs and get paid peanuts. As for me, I got a minor gig as chief pilot of sorts for a starting charter company, and I can't even get to fly, and get paid major peanuts, but it will have to do for now.

[Edited 2010-07-22 15:38:06]
 
atpcliff
Topic Author
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2001 6:24 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:46 pm

The US Air Force guys typically go right into a major airline (Delta/United) higher paying job. Sometimes they do go to a low-paying regional (I did, but that is not normal). Also, over 50% of the new USAF pilots this year are starting with RPVs (Remotely Piloted Vehicles), and not "real" airplanes.

There are no "Typical" minimums for US regional airlines. They vary a lot by airline, and they vary over time. Previously, many required an ATP. In the 2008 timeframe, many were hiring guys with less than 200 hours, or without a Commercial License. Today, Colgan Airlines, one of the lower-paying "Regional" airlines, has minimums of 1000/100 and no more than two previous failed checkrides (1000 total time/100 multiengine total time).
TRY. It's all you have control over, and it's what God wants.
 
cv640
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:50 pm

Hopefully this will pass soon. Its about time to get some more experience back into the cockpit. Regionals will have issues, but they'll adopt. 10 years ago it took 2000 hours to get on and 20 years ago it was 2500-3000.

Instructing, 135, and the corporate ways to move up the ranks will return. Good to hear.

I know a few people with low time are complaining, but if they'd asked anyone in the industry, they'd have been told this had to happen. The past few years were getting very dangerous in the regionals.
 
SEPilot
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:58 pm

Interesting that every time Congress passes a new regulation in response to an event, the bill that they pass would not have affected the incident that they were responding to. Didn't both pilots on the Colgan flight have over 2000 hours?
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:10 pm

Quoting cv640 (Reply 14):
The past few years were getting very dangerous in the regionals.

Sorry, I'm gonna have to say it, but that's complete BS.

The past decade has been the safest in aviation history EVER.

http://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/Pages/2010-02-18-01.aspx

That's but just one source.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 15):
Interesting that every time Congress passes a new regulation in response to an event, the bill that they pass would not have affected the incident that they were responding to

Sad but true.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 15):
Didn't both pilots on the Colgan flight have over 2000 hours?

I think the FO was just shy of that.

Much more info on the accident, Colgan, and the bill and industry in general here:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/
 
DashTrash
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:26 pm

Quoting dl767captain (Reply 9):
Great, happens right when I'm starting flight school to become an airline pilot haha

It doesn't seem like it now, but long term I think you will benefit from this legislation if it goes through.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 10):
its pretty much impossible to find a flying job right now having less than 500hrs logged,

Don't feel bad. I've got 5000 and can't find a job.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 11):
Nope, there is too much other junk in the FAA bill to deal with. Specifically the UPS vs FedEx union issue

Oberstar dropped that deal.

This is legislation that has excellent potential to benefit the pilot profession. If regional airlines are competing for the same new pilots as corporate and 135 companies, they will be forced to pay more. In turn, we may see more flying go back to the majors where it belongs.
 
DAL7e7
Posts: 298
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:30 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 10):
Quoting dl767captain (Reply 9):
Great, happens right when I'm starting flight school to become an airline pilot haha

Yeah, good luck with that.

Why do people constantly knock other people that are pursing flying jobs!? Not to hijack the thread, and I understand that the market is down, but seriously people. I'm pursuing my dream, which is to fly, and all I hear is "Oh, you're wasting your time. You won't get a job." Its called hard work people. People in-tune with the real world understand that they aren't going to get out of flight school and have a myriad of corporations begging for them to fly their Citation X's all across the globe. Yeah, we all get it. Market's down, furloughs, saturated aviation sector as a whole, but it's bordering on ridiculous the amount of people that make smart-assed comments every time I mention that I'm going to school to be a pilot. It actually offends me when people make comments like that. Seriously.

Now, back on topic.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 10):
The retards in congress don't seem to grasp that the problem with the Colgan pilots was that they were OVERWORKED, not inexperienced or improperly trained. And sure, the captain had a few busted check rides but that's not uncommon.

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Whether you're a SF340 FO or a 744 Captain, being in the condition the Colgan FO was in is NEVER acceptable in the cockpit. Not to mention the reasons for her missing work. I understand a missed work policy, but one so strict that the people in charge of 50 other souls is sick and not properly prepared for the flight?

I think that Congress and the FAA need to stop looking at individuals and start reviewing the companies and their policies.

War Eagle!
DAL7e7
DAL7e7 is wondering... Do pilots take crash courses?
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:09 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 17):
This is legislation that has excellent potential to benefit the pilot profession. If regional airlines are competing for the same new pilots as corporate and 135 companies, they will be forced to pay more. In turn, we may see more flying go back to the majors where it belongs.

Its a temporary solution for a long term problem. Its as simple as supply and demand. Sure, they'll pull the demand curve way up, but eventually, they supply curve will return to where it is today. And the pilot pay issue will continue to be argued about for years. The whole pilot industry is about getting yours and pulling the ladder up behind you. Until there is some way to change how a pilot is promoted other than on a seniority based system, it will continue to be that way. The numbers of hours and years in aviation don't tell the whole story, yet they manage to run the show.


-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
dl767captain
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:51 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:14 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 17):
It doesn't seem like it now, but long term I think you will benefit from this legislation if it goes through.

Really? how so? just curious

Quoting DAL7e7 (Reply 18):

Why do people constantly knock other people that are pursing flying jobs!? Not to hijack the thread, and I understand that the market is down, but seriously people. I'm pursuing my dream, which is to fly, and all I hear is "Oh, you're wasting your time. You won't get a job." Its called hard work people. People in-tune with the real world understand that they aren't going to get out of flight school and have a myriad of corporations begging for them to fly their Citation X's all across the globe. Yeah, we all get it. Market's down, furloughs, saturated aviation sector as a whole, but it's bordering on ridiculous the amount of people that make smart-assed comments every time I mention that I'm going to school to be a pilot. It actually offends me when people make comments like that. Seriously.

I know! The amount of people who ask me what I want to do and I tell them that I want to be an airline pilot and they try to talk me out of it. The only people who have ever encouraged me to fly are other pilots i've talked to (although they have cautioned me). It's always been my dream job, sure it has risks, but I could either sit in an office all day and watch a jet fly by and wish that's where I was, or I can be in the cockpit knowing it's where I belong.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:34 am

Quoting DAL7e7 (Reply 18):
It actually offends me when people make comments like that. Seriously.


Well maybe instead of dismissing people who have actually been through flight training and are already dumped into the real world, you may want to listen carefully to them.

Quoting dl767captain (Reply 20):
It's always been my dream job, sure it has risks, but I could either sit in an office all day and watch a jet fly by and wish that's where I was, or I can be in the cockpit knowing it's where I belong.

And I'll have you guys know I was feeling just as optimistic when I started training, and I probably would've been pissed if somebody had said what I said earlier. But things are very VERY different once your thrown into the real world.

A couple of years from now we'll see how you guys end up. Don't get me wrong, I genuinely wish you the best, however, once you get your ass handed to the "real" world after college/flight school, you'll have a swift change of heart. Mark my words.

[Edited 2010-07-22 17:37:49]
 
DAL7e7
Posts: 298
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:42 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 21):

Way to jump ahead of yourself...

I've had a small taste of the real aviation world bud, and it blows, I'm aware. But I'm still optimistic. If you really would like to know how, just PM me. A public forum is not a place I want to post my life's story.

[Edited 2010-07-22 17:48:46]
DAL7e7 is wondering... Do pilots take crash courses?
 
SEPilot
Posts: 4919
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:53 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 16):

I think the FO was just shy of that.

But I do recall she was well over 1500 hours.
To the point under discussion, the fact remains that far more people would like to fly than there are paying jobs to accommodate. Hence they get away with paying miserable salaries and still fill the seats. The fundamental problem is that it is very difficult to weed out the pilots who will not perform well under pressure (such as the Colgan captain); it really comes down to the chief pilot and personnel manager having the skills to tell which ones they shouldn't hire. No regulations will really solve this, and as long as humans are humans some bad ones will slip through.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:16 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 23):
But I do recall she was well over 1500 hours.

Found it, from wiki:

Quote:

First Officer Rebecca Lynne Shaw, age 24, of Maple Valley, Washington,was hired by Colgan in January 2008, and had flown 2,200 hours, 772 of them on the Q400.

So she was actually a bit over from what I remembered.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 23):

To the point under discussion, the fact remains that far more people would like to fly than there are paying jobs to accommodate. Hence they get away with paying miserable salaries and still fill the seats.

Agreed. Not too sure how you could fix that short off "eliminating" everybody with shiny jet syndrome or making a massive nationwide strike on all regionals.
 
cv640
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Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2000 8:10 pm

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:42 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 17):
Sorry, I'm gonna have to say it, but that's complete BS.

The past decade has been the safest in aviation history EVER.

I flew for the regionals from 1999 to early 2007 and saw things first hand. Technology and luck are what were the biggest source of safety. I'm sorry, but I saw more then a number of close calls that should have served as a warning for Colgan.

Yes, the crew all exceed the 1500 hours but they had very little experience. The Captain had done Gulfstream and had very little external experience. He had been taught to just fly the system and never been exposed to a bad situation, even if it was one of his own making.

The FO had nearly no instrument time and very little time in ice. They both trained at schools in the south and were in the northeast in a turbo prop, flying in the weather. I'm sorry, but just a bad idea.

I know everyone wants to leave school and go straight to an airline. Too many schools no longer tell the truth. The truth is you'll have to build time. Whether that's instructing, tour operators, 135, 125, corportae, skydivers, pipe line inspection, traffic watch, etc.

I hate saying when I went to school this is the way it was, sounds too much like in my day we walked 10 miles to work uphill both ways. The truth was that I was the second lowest time new hire in my class at 1900 TT. Everyone had the minimums for the ATP.

If your new to this industry, good luck. Remember everything in the industry is always changing, never static. Good luck and just have to be patient.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:09 am

Quoting cv640 (Reply 25):

The FO had nearly no instrument time and very little time in ice. They both trained at schools in the south and were in the northeast in a turbo prop, flying in the weather. I'm sorry, but just a bad idea.

I've heard this thrown around a bunch from a whole bunch of guys. I'm not sure what you can do to fix that? Its not like the people up north are flying 172's and PA28's in the ice. All they get taught in the north is how to not fly when there is ice. There are no trainers out there that are FIKI certified, and quite honestly, its not something that can really be taught in a good portion of the GA fleet. You can talk book knowledge all you want too, but that does little to nothing when you get your first inadvertent icing encounter.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:27 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 19):
Its a temporary solution for a long term problem. Its as simple as supply and demand. Sure, they'll pull the demand curve way up, but eventually, they supply curve will return to where it is today. And the pilot pay issue will continue to be argued about for years. The whole pilot industry is about getting yours and pulling the ladder up behind you. Until there is some way to change how a pilot is promoted other than on a seniority based system, it will continue to be that way. The numbers of hours and years in aviation don't tell the whole story, yet they manage to run the show.

I disagree. This legislation will add a significant barrier to entering the profession. Right now it's way too easy (was way too easy in 2007, not so much now). Also have to disagree with you about the seniority system. It's not perfect, but much better than any sort of merit based system that would promote a lower level of safety.

Quoting dl767captain (Reply 20):
Really? how so? just curious

By limiting the amount of available pilots for hire, airlines will have to pay more for our services. Right now pilot pay and work rules are as low as they have ever been. For a while in 2007 airlines were starting to offer incentives to new hire pilots outside of the negotiated CBAs as there were more jobs than applicants. Airlines were having to compete with one another to hire guys. If the "perfect storm" of fuel prices, age 65, and the economy not ground things to a halt, you would have seen airlines open contract talks early to increase first year pay at minimum. It was GOING to happen, especially at regionals where there is little to no movement. In 2012 when retirements start again, the economy will hopefully be out of the toilet. Airlines will need a supply of pilots from a pool significantly smaller than it was in 2007. It will be up to individual pilot groups and negotiating committees to make sure that CBAs are negotiated providing an acceptable standard of living at the regional level, but for once we will be holding the better hand in the negotiating poker game.

I wish you the best of luck. I hope that my generation of pilots can improve conditions enough to make the career worthwhile again for you generation of pilots.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 23):
The fundamental problem is that it is very difficult to weed out the pilots who will not perform well under pressure

That is easily weeded out in training. Problem is, in some cases airline training departments face the same pressure to turn out pilots that pilots face to fly. It's all about corporate culture.

Quoting cv640 (Reply 25):

Wasn't me you quoted, but good post!

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 26):
You can talk book knowledge all you want too, but that does little to nothing when you get your first inadvertent icing encounter.

So true! Your first ILS down to minimums, time in the clouds, etc, does not need to be with a cabin full of people behind you.
 
cv640
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:39 am

Sorry Dash Trash, I don't know why it quoted you, it was an earlier post I was trying to quote. Who do you fly the dash for anyways? It was always one of my favorite turboprops, but only got a chance on Convairs and Saabs.

I'm not trying to attack anyone, I'm sure everyone is a great pilot. Most are probably equal or superior to myself, but experience gives you the chance to see more.

If you doubt experience isn't worth something, why are insurance rates for cars higher for those you just got a license? Why all the jokes about doctors in V-tails and Barons?

[Edited 2010-07-22 19:41:20]
 
chrisjw
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:42 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:08 am

Quoting cv640 (Reply 25):
The FO had nearly no instrument time and very little time in ice. They both trained at schools in the south and were in the northeast in a turbo prop, flying in the weather. I'm sorry, but just a bad idea.

Because instructing, tour operators, skydivers, pipe line inspection, and traffic watch give you sooo much instrument time and experience in ice. The only jobs that give that kind of experience are few and far between. Go ahead and look for a corporate job with less than 1000 hours, you won't find one.

Quoting cv640 (Reply 28):
So true! Your first ILS down to minimums, time in the clouds, etc, does not need to be with a cabin full of people behind you.

It's a good thing that you have a captain right next to you who has done it before. While there are captains out there who probably shouldn't be captains (just like there are doctors out there who shouldn't be doctors), that's an entirely different issue that is not addressed at all by this bill.

This bill can be summed up in one sentence: Nonsense government regulation that does little to nothing to address it's purpose.
 
JBirdAV8r
Posts: 3454
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:44 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:24 am

Quoting DAL7e7 (Reply 18):
Why do people constantly knock other people that are pursing flying jobs!? Not to hijack the thread, and I understand that the market is down, but seriously people. I'm pursuing my dream, which is to fly, and all I hear is "Oh, you're wasting your time. You won't get a job." Its called hard work people. People in-tune with the real world understand that they aren't going to get out of flight school and have a myriad of corporations begging for them to fly their Citation X's all across the globe. Yeah, we all get it. Market's down, furloughs, saturated aviation sector as a whole, but it's bordering on ridiculous the amount of people that make smart-assed comments every time I mention that I'm going to school to be a pilot. It actually offends me when people make comments like that. Seriously.

No one, NO ONE, makes fun of good old-fashioned hard work.

But you're living in a dream world if you think "working harder than others" is going to land you a pilot job at an airline. That's not the way pilot careers work. What good will working hard get you? 250 hours and a multi-commercal (and tanker-trucks full of debt)? What can you really do? Get to work earlier than everyone else? Listen real carefully to the radios and never miss a handoff? Make your paperwork neat and legible? It's a glorified but pretty much dead-end job--and that's one reason I bailed. It's not my personal bag.

You're better off working hard to be a pilot AND working your ass off getting a degree in something other than "Aviation Management" to try and make a little more something of yourself if and when the pilot gig doesn't pan out like you think so.

Sure, there is something to be said for a positive attitude--but you can't get mad when people who've tried--and failed--to find work as a pilot take less than kindly to your rosy, fresh-from-the-PR-department outlook on aviation careers.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:38 am

Quoting atpcliff (Reply 2):
Yes, a 1500 hour guy will tend not to want to make the current starting regional salaries...some of them under $20K/year.

There are plenty of 1500 hour guys who are jumping at the bit to take the current regional starting salaries.

All this will do is develop the PFJ 135 market. I can't wait. And meanwhile, the actual cause of the Colgan accident (fatigue and poor training) are allowed to persist, all in the name of cost savings.  

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:48 pm

Quoting chrisjw (Reply 29):

Because instructing, tour operators, skydivers, pipe line inspection, and traffic watch give you sooo much instrument time and experience in ice

You're still gaining experience. You need to scare yourself a few times and learn from it before you fly an airliner. You just don't have enough time to do that in 250 hrs.

Quoting cv640 (Reply 28):

Not a problem! I don't fly the Dash anymore. Couldn't handle the regional pay and lifestyle anymore.

Quoting chrisjw (Reply 29):
It's a good thing that you have a captain right next to you who has done it before. While there are captains out there who probably shouldn't be captains (just like there are doctors out there who shouldn't be doctors), that's an entirely different issue that is not addressed at all by this bill.

He's a captain, not a wet-nurse. His job is not to babysit an FO, which is what happens more often than not with low time guys.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 30):
You're better off working hard to be a pilot AND working your ass off getting a degree in something other than "Aviation Management"

Actually his aviation management degree IS a management degree. It just happens to require a lot of flying as well as the business aspect. I have the same degree he's working on from the same school. You spend more time in business classes than you do at the airport, and most of the students working on that degree will end up in something other than a cockpit.

Quoting Mir (Reply 31):
There are plenty of 1500 hour guys who are jumping at the bit to take the current regional starting salaries.

We're talking about later on down the road when hiring gets ramped up again. In 2007 the airline I was flying for couldn't find anyone with 1500 hours willing to work there. They were hiring wet ink commercial pilots. Any company that didn't offer a fast upgrade, RJs or decent quality of life had to.

Quoting Mir (Reply 31):

All this will do is develop the PFJ 135 market.

My understanding is they want to extend this to Part 135 as well. No more buying the left seat of a junky Lear for a shady S. Florida operator.
 
cv640
Posts: 843
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2000 8:10 pm

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:15 pm

Quoting chrisjw (Reply 29):
Because instructing, tour operators, skydivers, pipe line inspection, and traffic watch give you sooo much instrument time and experience in ice.

I did all the above, minus the skydivers before I got my first freight job and then moved to the part 121 world.

Getting time in ice was rare, flew some Barons and C421s, but still didn't like to stay in icing conditions. I flew out of Michigan, so we had to pay attention to ice for quite a few months and learned tricks to avoid and get out of it real fast. On the flip side I got a lot of instrument time.

This recent fad of low timers flying in the 121 world was probably gone for a while, not enough hiring to exceed demand. This will prevent that return in a few years, I know the ATA will continue to fight it though. I know some people say in the 1960's people were hired with similar qualifications, but they would spend years as an FE and then years longer as an FO.

Things have changed where you would be an FO right away and in 2 years the Captain, a huge change. The experience pool to draw ipon was quite small, especially when that individual could be paired with a 300 hour FO.

Whether you like it or not, it doesn't matter. If it becomes law, that is what you'll have to do. If you were sold the idea that you could walk out of school and straight into a jet cockpit, I'm sorry. You should have asked people in the industry and most would have told you not to count on it.

There will be plenty of jobs in the future, but you'll need to get them the old fashion way. Hard work and networking, again I wish everyone good luck. I'm just trying to add a dose of reality.



Dash Trash, I can definitey understand. I've been lucky for the most part in my career and never a furlough, down grade, and been able to live in base 90% of the time. Plus, most importantly, a very supportive spouse with a real job. Good luck to you.
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3551
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:35 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 27):
This legislation will add a significant barrier to entering the profession

Well there are reasons there are significant barriers to enter some professions. You don't want someone with an IQ of 90 getting their M.D. from BillyBob's School of Medicine and Massage Therapy and gonna do brain surgery on you.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:18 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 34):
Well there are reasons there are significant barriers to enter some professions. You don't want someone with an IQ of 90 getting their M.D. from BillyBob's School of Medicine and Massage Therapy and gonna do brain surgery on you

Where's you sense of adventure? 
 
413X3
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:59 pm

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:24 pm

Quoting cv640 (Reply 14):
Hopefully this will pass soon. Its about time to get some more experience back into the cockpit.

Please name a major accident with a regional or legacy airline that was a direct result of low time pilots.

Quoting cv640 (Reply 14):
The past few years were getting very dangerous in the regionals.

Very dangerous if you are counting the high time pilots who made stupid mistakes that no airman should make which caused accidents. Like taking off from the wrong runway, flying up to FL510, raising flaps when approaching stall speeds... And surprisingly enough, all of those pilots were far far above the minimum hours this bill requires.

A knee jerk reaction to a situation that only needs raises and better standards of living for pilots, not higher requirements.

[Edited 2010-07-25 08:44:21]
 
413X3
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:59 pm

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:26 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 32):
You're still gaining experience. You need to scare yourself a few times and learn from it before you fly an airliner. You just don't have enough time to do that in 250 hrs.

quite honestly this is the worst way to build up experience. Just think about fly alone, you are not that smart with weather and some of the advanced parts of flying. So what better way than to sit in the right seat and learn from a very experienced pilot? No, that's going to be illegal now. Instead you build up time teaching yourself bad habits and bad skills, without any real knowledge of what you are doing. Quite honestly you will make the worst FO in a few thousand hours of that.
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:36 pm



Quoting 413X3 (Reply 36):
Please name a major accident with a regional or legacy airline that was a direct result of low time pilots.

Most have been a result of low experience pilots. Pinnacle and Colgan were a combination of inexperience and poor judgement along with fatigue.

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 36):
Very dangerous if you are counting the high time pilots who made stupid mistakes that no airman should make which caused accidents. Like taking off from the wrong runway, flying up to FL510, raising flaps when approaching stall speeds... And surprisingly enough, all of those pilots were far far above the minimum hours this bill requires.

Comair at LEX, poor runway markings, punchy crew from a PM / AM shift, early morning, lack of an updated Jepp plate, etc... Pinnacle crash, inexperienced crew with little knowledge of high altitude flight and a lack of training on how their aircraft would perform. It was FL410 by the way. Colgan crash, lack of situational awareness, poor cockpit discipline, etc. The FO raising the flaps didn't contribute much as flaps move slow in a Dash 8. They were most likely still in transit at impact.
Quoting 413X3 (Reply 37):
quite honestly this is the worst way to build up experience. Just think about fly alone, you are not that smart with weather and some of the advanced parts of flying. So what better way than to sit in the right seat and learn from a very experienced pilot? No, that's going to be illegal now. Instead you build up time teaching yourself bad habits and bad skills, without any real knowledge of what you are doing. Quite honestly you will make the worst FO in a few thousand hours of that.

That very experienced pilot you're flying with probably isn't all that experienced to begin with if he started his airline career with a wet ink commercial certificate.

I also don't agree that you teach yourself bad habits and make them worse along with bad skills. In "a few thousand hours of that" you will have taught yourself what works and what doesn't. That makes you a better pilot, and one who will be more likely to be successful in initial new hire training. If you go to an airline with bad skills and bad habits, they're not going to correct them for you, they're going to wash your ass out of training.

It's very obvious you don't like this requirement, but there needs to be some minimum experience requirement before you start hauling passengers around. The cockpit of an airliner is where you go when your skills and habits are refined. Not where you go to refine them.

[Edited 2010-07-25 11:45:52]
 
413X3
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:59 pm

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:30 pm

Again I can't think of one crash where anyone in the cockpit had less than 1500 hours. So I'm still not sure exactly how you can justify this law, it does nothing to change work hours, commuting, pay, absolutely nothing that you pointed to being the cause of those crashes. Inexperience eh? So then maybe all those pilots with over 2500 hours shouldn't be flying either? maybe we should raise the minimums to 5000. And maybe give them a fat raise so they can make 25k a year. This law does nothing to address the real pressing issues, it's just a smoke screen that appeases both the Unions and Management.
 
DashTrash
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Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:32 pm

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 39):

You're correct that nothing has been done about the poor working conditions at regionals. Much of that will have to be addressed by individual pilot groups during negotiations. It also doesn't set an "experience" requirement. It does offer a starting point however.

When the next hiring boom begins, regionals will have a tougher time filling their seats with 1500 hour guys willing to put up with the lifestyle. It will hopefully be another cycle in the airline evolution, where regionals shrink back to turboprops and 50 seat jets while the larger aircraft go back to mainline as the regionals have to agree to better wages and work rules.
 
etherealsky
Posts: 211
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:13 pm

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:11 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 38):
It's very obvious you don't like this requirement, but there needs to be some minimum experience requirement before you start hauling passengers around.

True, but I think the point that 413X3's trying to make is that experience should not be directly equated to hours logged, and that's where this legislation might be missing the point. Both of the flight crew each had over 2000 hours total time... this legislation would not have prevented the accident. I don't doubt that higher-time pilots are almost always more skillful and experienced than the average low-time fresh-out-of-school regional FO, but on the other hand, flying for 10,000 hours doesn't automatically make you a safe pilot either.
"And that's why you always leave a note..."
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:58 am

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 41):

There's a lot of truth in your post. There is such a thing as quality of time.
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:58 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 42):
There is such a thing as quality of time.

True, but you can't legislate that. You can only hope someone catches enough of it during the required time.
Proud OOTSK member
 
413X3
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:59 pm

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:28 pm

But to me, quality of time means learning from experienced pilots. Not sitting around learning on the fly, you don't learn well under pressure and stress. That's probably where all those pilots learned the bad habits that ended up killing a lot of people.
 
iairallie
Posts: 2326
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:33 am

This is stupid. Where are these pilots supposed to build that kind of time. There are a limited number of time building jobs available and if you increase the amount of time it takes to move on to the next step then you clog up the airline pipeline which will ultimately result in an commercial airline pilot shortage. Besides there is only so much airline relevant experience to be gained from the time building type flying. The rest has to be accumulated at the airlines which is why we don't have green captains paired with green FO's. Adding a higher hour hiring requirement doesn't solve anything. I seriously hate our politicians are they all sharing one brain between them?
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:36 pm

Until the last 5 years, nearly everyone who went to a regional had 1500 + hours. You built it up banner towing, sitting right seat in a freighter or corporate jet (if you're lucky), flew right seat for an air ambulance company, flight instructed, traffic watch, etc. Some of those jobs will more than prepare you for an airline career. If you want to do this bad enough, do what those of us hired pre-2005 did, and earn it.

I know some will take offense to my above statement, but until you've been in the cockpit with a wet-ink commercial pilot who is seeing the inside of a cloud for the first time while in the right seat of an airliner, you're nothing more than an armchair CEO type like the ones posting on the Civil Aviation board about how pilots are evil for striking. This legislation isn't perfect, but it's a start in the right direction for numerous reasons.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 2138
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:16 am

Dash, that's fine, and I understand what your saying but here's the facts from those of us who are on the bottom looking up. There aren't nearly enough entry level jobs to keep up with demand, once this bill gets into place. All it will do is kill the flight instruction industry for good. But anyway, here's my take.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 46):
banner towing

Has all but disappeared in many places. What's left of it is PTF/PFJ, just like the Gulfstream Academies of the world. And from you union crazy's, PFT/PFJ is just as bad as scabbing, or that's what the union wants people to believe.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 46):
sitting right seat in a freighter or corporate jet (if you're lucky)

135 freight is still alive, but a vast majority of it is single pilot ops. Lots of the old check runs have dissapeared with the modern technology that banks employ. Still have to get to 1200 hours there. Even VFR 135 jobs are rare these days. Corporate jets don't touch people (unless you really know people) until you have thousands of hours. Maybe you can sneak into a Kingair 90/200, but that's about it, and that's rare.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 46):
flew right seat for an air ambulance company

Only air ambulance job's I've seen within the past year or two require vast amounts of time, if not more than will be required by the 121 bill.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 46):
traffic watch

Has disappeared. Its much cheaper to put camera's in around town on the highways than it is to have a plane fly around.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 46):
flight instructed

Works currently, but when you force everyone to the 1500 hour mark, people will start paying to flight instruct, rather than being paid.

Don't get me wrong, something needs to be done, but an ATP to sit in the right seat isn't going to help. In fact, it's probably easier to teach a 250 hour pilot to do things a specific way than it is to teach a 1500 hour pilot to do things that way. As people advance, they get set in their ways, and if it isn't exactly right, those are mighty hard habits to break.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7207
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:11 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 47):


Dash, that's fine, and I understand what your saying but here's the facts from those of us who are on the bottom looking up. There aren't nearly enough entry level jobs to keep up with demand, once this bill gets into place. All it will do is kill the flight instruction industry for good. But anyway, here's my take.

My thoughts exactly, word for word. The only realistic and somewhat sizeable job market I see in the future for low time pilots is flight instructing. And this bill could very well ruin it for flight instructors as there would be an excess of CFIs out there and very few students. You'll have CFIs instructing for years before they reach the 1500 mark and next thing you know the pool of new students dries out and the CFI market becomes saturated. Dunno if that made sense but it seems plausible.
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:59 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 47):
Has all but disappeared in many places. What's left of it is PTF/PFJ, just like the Gulfstream Academies of the world. And from you union crazy's, PFT/PFJ is just as bad as scabbing, or that's what the union wants people to believe.

Wasn't aware of that, and I've heard about the PFJ guys where you buy your endorsement. I can't say I've ever heard of a union stance on PFT. I'm a former union rep and have never heard of it being addressed. Personally, I don't like it, but have friends that have done it.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 47):
135 freight is still alive, but a vast majority of it is single pilot ops. Lots of the old check runs have dissapeared with the modern technology that banks employ. Still have to get to 1200 hours there. Even VFR 135 jobs are rare these days. Corporate jets don't touch people (unless you really know people) until you have thousands of hours. Maybe you can sneak into a Kingair 90/200, but that's about it, and that's rare.

Most of the 135 freight has always been single pilot. There are still chances to hook up with those guys and fly / log the dead legs. I know it's slowed down a lot right now, but it will pick back up. VFR 135 has always been rare. I've got thousands of hours and a type rating, but still can't land a corporate jet job. There are limited opportunities out there though.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 47):
Works currently, but when you force everyone to the 1500 hour mark, people will start paying to flight instruct, rather than being paid.

I doubt it. Most of the CFI's around here are instructing guys who will go no further than their instrument rating. The newly minted pilots who aspire to fly for the airlines are the minority (unless you're in Florida....ha ha).

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 47):
In fact, it's probably easier to teach a 250 hour pilot to do things a specific way than it is to teach a 1500 hour pilot to do things that way. As people advance, they get set in their ways, and if it isn't exactly right, those are mighty hard habits to break.

What habits are you talking about? Airline flying is very scripted. It doesn't take long in sim training to adapt to the new airplane.

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