MD-90
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Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:08 pm

Seen here on a Falcon 50. Looks like the spiroid design we've already seen but from this angle it's hard to know if it's exactly the same or not.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/Fleetwing1627/01.jpg

It'd be nice if someone at Oshkosh this year could tell us if there's a sign with any performance claims on it nearby.
 
oly720man
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:55 pm

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2H4
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:55 pm

I'm here at OSH right now - no performance claims are on display, and company reps are mum on numbers.
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netjets21
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:23 am

That looks way cool. I wonder how big a performance increase they will see with them!
 
2H4
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:49 am

Ok, I was finally able to get a complete, unobstructed shot into the DB:


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Photo © Jason McDowell

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DocLightning
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:05 am

Quoting NetJets21 (Reply 3):
That looks way cool. I wonder how big a performance increase they will see with them!

The numbers I've heard are 10-15% fuel burn improvement/range/thrust required. So not insignificant. Combined with the newer engines, this could trigger a 737 upgrade.
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Faro
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:55 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Quoting NetJets21 (Reply 3):
That looks way cool. I wonder how big a performance increase they will see with them!

The numbers I've heard are 10-15% fuel burn improvement/range/thrust required.

Is that 10-15% the maximum possible or an average estimate? Seems a hell of a lot for an aerodynamic tweak to me...

Faro
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oly720man
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:57 pm

Quoting faro (Reply 6):
Seems a hell of a lot for an aerodynamic tweak to me...

It might depend on what's being compared with what. It seems that the spiroids are additional wingspan, roughly doubled for the top and bottom horizontal elements which will give more lift compared to the baseline wing. At cruise the additional lift would mean flying at a marginally lower incidence at the same speed (assuming generated lift is rather more than the weight of the devices), potentially reducing the drag a bit, and given the drag increment due to the spiroid is lower than the drag reduction due their implementation.

Very roughly, on this photo


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Photo © Jason McDowell



the span of the spiroid part is about 1/7 to 1/8 of the span of the wing, and this will be about the increase in wing area - 15% say - given the bottom and top horizontal areas of the spiroid.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:49 pm

How heavy are they? I'm assuming they're at least as twice as heavy as regular winglets.
 
2H4
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:26 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 8):
How heavy are they? I'm assuming they're at least as twice as heavy as regular winglets.

About 250 lbs each. But in the interest of rapid prototyping and cost, they're machined out of blocks of aluminum. Production versions will carbon fiber composite.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:00 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 9):

About 250 lbs each.

Damn. That's 3 pax worth, or 4 if they're skinny, or a lot of fuel.

I'm assuming though once they're certified and they use the composite ones they may allow for an MGTOW increase.
 
2H4
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:43 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 10):
I'm assuming though once they're certified and they use the composite ones they may allow for an MGTOW increase.

I would assume that certified composite versions would indeed be much lighter.
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KELPkid
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:13 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 11):
.

I would assume that certified composite versions would indeed be much lighter.

But they sure do look cool as a single piece of billeted aluminum   
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Max Q
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:00 am

I'm Sorry but thats incredibly ugly.



Falcons are some of the best looking small jets around and that thing on the end of the wing really detracts from its elegance.



It looks like it's been in an accident..
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DocLightning
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:32 am

As it was explained to me, what they basically do is spread out the vortex so it's not really a vortex anymore. The vortex forms around the wingtip. Even if you have a winglet, you still have a wingtip. With a spiroid wingtip, you actually don't have a wingtip.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:58 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 13):
I'm Sorry but thats incredibly ugly.

Not a huge fan of it either.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
As it was explained to me, what they basically do is spread out the vortex so it's not really a vortex anymore. The vortex forms around the wingtip. Even if you have a winglet, you still have a wingtip. With a spiroid wingtip, you actually don't have a wingtip.

Makes sense. However, my guess is that what little is left of the vortex will be produced from the corners of the spiroid mostly. To completely eliminate vortices I'd imagine it would have to be almost perfectly round.
 
bohica
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:00 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 13):
I'm Sorry but thats incredibly ugly.

While there might be aerodynamic improvements, it isn't incredibly ugly, it's fugly.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:50 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
The vortex forms around the wingtip

The vortex actually comes off the trailing edge as a vortex sheet...it rolls up to form the trailing vortex about a semi-span back from the trailing edge.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 15):
To completely eliminate vortices I'd imagine it would have to be almost perfectly round.

You can't eliminate the vortex. You can spread it out so that it's impact on the near flow field is less (less induced drag) but total vorticity is pretty much pinned down by Cl.

Tom.
 
oly720man
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:31 am

The flight test hours are now building up it would seem

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N789JC
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2H4
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:29 pm

Here's another view, in case anyone is interested:


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Jason McDowell

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viv
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:34 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 13):
I'm Sorry but thats incredibly ugly.

Aircraft are not designed with prettiness as a priority. Form follows function.
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PC12Fan
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:16 pm

Quoting viv (Reply 20):

  
As the old saying goes, can't have you cake and ieat it too. If the bean counters come across something that can save 10%+ there will be definite interest.
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wingscrubber
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:45 pm

This looks much more promising to me:
http://www.gizmag.com/minix-wing-tip...ortex-aircraft-aerodynamics/15526/


Lighter, with less parasite drag added, more of a wingtip diffuser than the snake-biting-its-tail design depicted on the falcon, but not flight tested yet.
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PC12Fan
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:33 pm

I'm no aeronautical engineer, but it seems to me that other areas of the wing need some attention as well. True, at cruise, this scenario isn't as prominent, but I think this photo gets my point across.


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oly720man
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:11 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 23):
True, at cruise, this scenario isn't as prominent

Every contrail is the exhaust from the engines being drawn around the tip vortices. Sure, close to the aircraft the exhausts are distinct, but further downstream, it's the path of the tip vortices you're seeing. If the atmospheric conditions are right the plane itself can generate condensation, and again this shows around the tip vortices that can be sustained for many miles.


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Photo © Jeffwell


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Photo © Jeffwell


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Rheinbote
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:38 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
The numbers I've heard are 10-15% fuel burn improvement/range/thrust required. So not insignificant. Combined with the newer engines, this could trigger a 737 upgrade.

I seem to recall seeing a G-II with spiroids undergoing flight test in an article in AvLeak in the late 1980s. What happened in the 20 years that have passed since then, I mean with the spiroid idea?

10-15%...may be on a 70s vintage wing design. Would one get anywhere near that benefit with spiroids on a state-of-the-art wing?
 
AKviator
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:44 pm

Too ugly. Don't like.
 
oly720man
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:17 pm

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 25):
flight test in an article in AvLeak in the late 1980s

The original flights were in the late 1990s

http://aviationtrivia.blogspot.com/2010/08/spiroid-winglet.html

In the meantime I'd imagine they've been doing lots of calculations and predictions to optimise the design.
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A342
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:27 pm

Quoting oly720man (Reply 24):
Every contrail is the exhaust from the engines being drawn around the tip vortices.

I assume PC12Fan is referring to the vortices/contrails originating from the flap edges in the photo he posted.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:03 am

Quoting Wingscrubber (Reply 22):
This looks much more promising to me:

That looks useless to me. The vortex doesn't spring fully formed from the tip...it comes off the whole trailing edge as a vortex sheet that rolls up into the complete trailing vortex about one semi-span back from the tip. The pictured device is far far far too small to do anything meaningful to the flowfield...this is why all real-world winglets that have significant effects are relatively large compared to the wing they're on.

Tom.
 
oly720man
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:25 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 29):

It makes you wonder what's actually going on, from these results

http://www.minix.fr/english/determinating_result.php

unless it's a case of apples 'n oranges and the reported changes are more due to the geometry than the aerodynamics.

I'm with you in that it's just too small to do anything apart from, perhaps, disturbing the vortex core.

But others have been this way and nothing seems to have come of the initial exciting claims. The wing tip turbine, for example.

http://www.allbusiness.com/professio...research-development/314114-1.html

Slide 21, here

www.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Mason_f/WingtipDevicesS04.pdf
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PC12Fan
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:38 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 28):

Correct, I should have been more specific.
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tdscanuck
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:14 am

Quoting oly720man (Reply 30):
It makes you wonder what's actually going on, from these results
http://www.minix.fr/english/determin...t.php

I don't get that one...the claims are substantial, large enough that I immediately smell a rat because, if it was as good as claimed it should be everywhere.

At the same time, he's making very concrete, verifiable, quantitative claims that should be very easy to prove/refute.

If it does what it says it does, I have no idea how it's doing it.

Tom.
 
oly720man
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RE: Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh

Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:26 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 32):
if it was as good as claimed it should be everywhere.

An operational issue is that it's a tube and they can collect water and freeze, stopping it working... or you need a heater.

One claim is 8% reduction in _induced drag_ at low incidence where induced drag will be fairly small anyway, and when you take into account the drag of the fuselage, etc, this decrease will be considerably reduced in terms of the whole aircraft.

One set of calculations, here for a light aircraft

http://ar-5.com/condrag94.html

suggest that (presumably at cruise) the induced drag is around 3-4% of the total drag compared to the wings (28%) and fuselage (33%)

So a saving of 8% of 3% isn't really anything to take to the bank, and presumably why things don't seem to have changed since 2001, as the page on the website is dated.
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