tarzanboy
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Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:05 pm

Do airlines take in consideration in the worse case scenario what would be the course of action should both pilots in a 2 pilot airliner become unconscious for whatever reason?

Do they 'train' the cabin crew to 'fly an airplane'?
 
DashTrash
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:05 am

No. If both guys are incapacitated, the pax are in for a nasty ride.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:08 am

Quoting tarzanboy (Thread starter):
Do airlines take in consideration in the worse case scenario what would be the course of action should both pilots in a 2 pilot airliner become unconscious for whatever reason?

Do they 'train' the cabin crew to 'fly an airplane'?

I don't know of any airline that trains for that, and it's pretty safe to say that no one does. The only time I can think of that something like what you mentioned happened (Helios flight 522) it resulted in a flaming crater on the side of a mountain.

In other words, should both pilots up front pass out for whatever reason, you're pretty much SOL, unless you got a REAL (not FS) pilot amongst the cabin crew or pax, and even then...

[Edited 2010-08-13 18:09:56]
 
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Moose135
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:08 am

Unless there is some MSFS ace on board... 
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:10 am

I couldn't tell you. I'm not sure. Tat's something I can ask my department head tomorrow. As for F/A training, I know most know how to use the radios in case one pilot is out for whatever reason. Again, whether that's formal training or not IDK.

If both are out? I'll bet there are specific steps operations take that are all written but unless there is a another pilot on the plane, i'm not sure...pray!!

Even if you had a multi-guy onboard, flying a jet is MUCH different than flying a piston a/c.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:24 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 4):
I'll bet there are specific steps operations take that are all written

You'd be hard pressed to find them

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 4):
Even if you had a multi-guy onboard, flying a jet is MUCH different than flying a piston a/c.

Agreed. Jets are simpler to operate in some regards than pistons (2 levers vs 6) but of course, an airliner will have vastly more complex systems. However, all planes go up, down, left and right. Who cares if said multi pilot cant fiddle with the FMS or the A/P, there's no point.


[Edited 2010-08-13 18:26:52]
 
unattendedbag
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:29 am

Quoting tarzanboy (Thread starter):
should both pilots in a 2 pilot airliner become unconscious for whatever reason?

Best course of action would be an attempt to locate a doctor.
Slower traffic, keep right
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:37 am

Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 6):
Best course of action would be an attempt to locate a doctor.

Assuming everyone behind the cockpit is conscious as well   
 
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Web500sjc
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:40 am

Quoting moose135 (Reply 3):
Unless there is some MSFS ace on board...

you still have to get said ace in to the cockpit. which post 9/11 i doubt would happen
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Starlionblue
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:41 am

In a hypothetical scenario when both pilots suddenly dropped dead, I guess you hope there is a deadheading pilot on board. Any airline or military pilot would have at least some of the needed knowledge. Here's a question: What odds would you give, say, a 330 pilot on a 747?

Barring that, the best chance would probably be for an F/A or pax to contact someone on the radio (first obstacle) and then have said person be walked through programming the autopilots for a descent and then an autoland (assuming the aircraft has said facilities). The person would still have to operate flaps, landing gear, throttles (assuming no autothrottles) and brakes (assuming no autobrakes). You would not want the F/A or pax to actually take the controls.

I'll leave the scenario of the problem happening way out over the ocean with spotty comms as an exercise for the alert reader.

Personally, I would be torn between trying to finish the onboard liquor before we impacted landed and running up to apply my limited FS knowledge.  Wow!

All that having been said, this has happened a handful of times in aviation history at most so I'll worry more about my luggage being lost.



[Edited 2010-08-13 19:46:20]

[Edited 2010-08-13 19:47:35]

[Edited 2010-08-13 19:48:15]

[Edited 2010-08-13 19:49:07]

[Edited 2010-08-13 19:50:12]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
PGNCS
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:11 am

Quoting tarzanboy (Thread starter):
Do airlines take in consideration in the worse case scenario what would be the course of action should both pilots in a 2 pilot airliner become unconscious for whatever reason?

Do they 'train' the cabin crew to 'fly an airplane'?

No and no.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
In a hypothetical scenario when both pilots suddenly dropped dead, I guess you hope there is a deadheading pilot on board. Any airline or military pilot would have at least some of the needed knowledge. Here's a question: What odds would you give, say, a 330 pilot on a 747?

Hypothetically everyone wants to live and the A-330 pilot would be pretty motivated. I think the odds would be reasonably good. I certainly had no difficulty transitioning back and forth between manufacturers over the years, and think if I were to try to fly a model I had never flown before I could make a go of it, providing there wasn't some disasterous systems problem at the root of the crew's demise. I have a few hours in B-747-200 and DC-10 simulators though I never flew either and know nothing about either (except what's common between the 742 and 744,) and had no issues manipulating the aircraft (simulator) with no instruction or assistance. These were for simulator visual demos for some contractors who wanted to see simulator visual fidelity, and required no instruction or qualified crew, by the way.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:34 am

Thanks for info. To expand on that, how about a pilot who has only flown 737/320 or smaller trying to land a 340/777/747? Lots more inertia for starters.
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etherealsky
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:06 am

Larger airplanes indeed, but I'm not so sure that it's accurate to equate "inertia" with "manageability" since control surfaces and powerplants are also scaled up to match the increased size/weight of larger aircraft. I could be wrong, but I remember reading a post not too long ago by a 747 FO who mentioned that the 747 was actually one of the easier/more responsive airliners to fly/maneuver.

The V-speeds are a bit higher in those larger planes, but nothing too drastic, and I'd assume that a pilot who has previously flown even the smallest RJ will still be competent at managing any jet engine as well.
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wn700driver
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:10 am

Quoting tarzanboy (Thread starter):

Do they 'train' the cabin crew to 'fly an airplane'?

No. Dangerous and expensive are the two best reasons for this.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
DashTrash
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:35 am

You could have a whole extra crew sitting in the back. The outcome will still be less than stellar.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:59 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 14):
You could have a whole extra crew sitting in the back. The outcome will still be less than stellar.

Well yeah. They can't do much sitting in the back.   
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
KELPkid
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:17 am

I wish they had a plan when someone on the crew called in sick...I had a flight from ELP-DEN cancelled at the gate (by YV) the day after Christmas one year, and it was a free-for-all to mob the UA ticket counter at El Paso (imagine a CRJ-full of irate pax descending upon the hardly-manned ticket counter)   
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kanban
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:17 am

isn't there a slight problem of getting though the anti terrorist door to the cockpit.... ?
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:22 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
To expand on that, how about a pilot who has only flown 737/320 or smaller trying to land a 340/777/747?

Not a particularly big deal...the picture is going to to be different on approach (different cockpit heights), but the controls will be familiar and in similar locations with similar functions, there will be copies of the FCOM somewhere to review procedures, etc. It won't be pretty, but it would probably be safe.

Quoting kanban (Reply 17):
isn't there a slight problem of getting though the anti terrorist door to the cockpit.... ?

Not really...punch in code on keypad (all FA's should know the code), wait requisite time for the lock to wait for a flight crew "Deny" signal, which it won't receive, then walk in. We're assuming that the flight crew are incapacitated, not actively trying to keep people out of the flight deck.

Tom.
 
unattendedbag
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:14 am

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 8):
you still have to get said ace in to the cockpit. which post 9/11 i doubt would happen
Quoting kanban (Reply 17):
isn't there a slight problem of getting though the anti terrorist door to the cockpit.... ?

Even without the door code, I'm sure 30+ people with a desire to live would have no problem with the door.
Slower traffic, keep right
 
Maverick623
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:58 am

Quoting tarzanboy (Thread starter):
Do airlines take in consideration in the worse case scenario what would be the course of action should both pilots in a 2 pilot airliner become unconscious for whatever reason?

No more than we do here.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 13):

No. Dangerous and expensive are the two best reasons for this.

And pointless. Such an event is so incredibly unlikely, as well as if something did happen to both pilots, chances are the airplane structure itself is compromised.

Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 19):
I'm sure 30+ people with a desire to live would have no problem with the door.

One strong person can get through the door.

No, I am not telling you how.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:49 pm

Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 19):
Even without the door code, I'm sure 30+ people with a desire to live would have no problem with the door.

The real problem is, assuming everything else is normal, how could the pax or crew tell the pilots are dead/unconscious?

I think it would be safe to say that by the time the cabin crew realized what was going on and decided to call the cockpit via the interphone they'd be way past their destination and running very low on fuel.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:58 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
To expand on that, how about a pilot who has only flown 737/320 or smaller trying to land a 340/777/747?

Not a particularly big deal...the picture is going to to be different on approach (different cockpit heights), but the controls will be familiar and in similar locations with similar functions

I agree with this Tom, and agree with your overall analysis and conclusions, except perhaps for this...

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
there will be copies of the FCOM somewhere to review procedures, etc. It won't be pretty, but it would probably be safe.

I agree it wouldn't be pretty, and certainly chances of an incident on landing would be higher than normal, but reviewing the FCOM (or equivalent) manuals for procedures would be very difficult given the incredible diversity of formatting in use in the world (unless the pilot was, perhaps, from the same airline) and the incredible length and cumbersome nature of the manual sets for most aircraft. I just don't think most guys would take the time to read a lot right then. I could be wrong. Still this is fairly nit-picky, and I do agree with you on the ultimate outcome of the event, provided there were no serious problems with the aircraft that incapicated the pilots in the first place.
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:50 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 22):
I agree it wouldn't be pretty, and certainly chances of an incident on landing would be higher than normal

In this type of situation, I would take the landing incident over the alternative  
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flymia
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:44 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2):
REAL (not FS) pilot amongst the cabin crew or pax


As a real pilot will of course do a better job. I must say if its a 737-800 I would rather have a guy who spends his weekends on PMDG 737 all day playing around with the FMC and doing ILS auto lands then a 100 hour private pilot that does not even know how to use a G1000. Some people dint give FS the credit it respects. Yes hand flying on FS will not teach you anything in flying a real airplane. However the FMC, overhead systems, radios etc.. Are all pretty much the same thing in the payware addons. If I can set up a simulated Boeing 744 made with the help from Boeing itself to autoland on FS why cant I do the same in a real one?

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 8):
you still have to get said ace in to the cockpit. which post 9/11 i doubt would happen


I know people wont give the answer to this. But I would imagine the flight attendants have some way of getting into the cockpit.

Anyway a situation where both pilots go down is probably a terrible situation which it didn't matter who was there to fly the plane.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
Maverick623
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:01 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 24):
I know people wont give the answer to this. But I would imagine the flight attendants have some way of getting into the cockpit.

It's been answered:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
.punch in code on keypad (all FA's should know the code), wait requisite time for the lock to wait for a flight crew "Deny" signal, which it won't receive, then walk in.

Or:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
One strong person can get through the door.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
unattendedbag
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:16 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 21):
I think it would be safe to say that by the time the cabin crew realized what was going on and decided to call the cockpit via the interphone they'd be way past their destination and running very low on fuel.

example: Northwest flight 188. It wasn't until the flight attendant phoned the cockpit that the pilots realized they had overflown their destination. I imagine if several more minutes had passed with no response from the front, desisions would be made in the back.
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PGNCS
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:27 am

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 23):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 22):
I agree it wouldn't be pretty, and certainly chances of an incident on landing would be higher than normal

In this type of situation, I would take the landing incident over the alternative

You have definitely got that right!  
Quoting flymia (Reply 24):
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2):
REAL (not FS) pilot amongst the cabin crew or pax


As a real pilot will of course do a better job. I must say if its a 737-800 I would rather have a guy who spends his weekends on PMDG 737 all day playing around with the FMC and doing ILS auto lands then a 100 hour private pilot that does not even know how to use a G1000. Some people dint give FS the credit it respects. Yes hand flying on FS will not teach you anything in flying a real airplane. However the FMC, overhead systems, radios etc.. Are all pretty much the same thing in the payware addons. If I can set up a simulated Boeing 744 made with the help from Boeing itself to autoland on FS why cant I do the same in a real one?

The scenario that seemed to be under discussion and that was specifically postulated by Starlionblue was a pilot qualified on one airliner trying to fly an unrelated airliner without any training, not a 100 hour PASEL. I am relatively certain that a 100 hour PASEL would not be successful in flying a transport category jet (not for long, anyway,) but I am likewise also quite doubtful that a home simulator trained pilot would be successful, either. When you aren't in a canned environment and you have to choose, where to go, what speeds to fly, when and how to configure, who (if anyone) to talk to, what approach to fly, can it even be done to an autoland, etc., it is more challenging than a video game, regardless of how good the graphics or computer add-ons are. You are correct that I don't give MSFS any particular amount of credit, because I honestly don't know how good it is; I've never used it.

I would truly love to test this with a statistically valid number of 100 hour PASELs and MSFS gurus. The only way I can imagine this working would be to put an airliner simulator of a random aircraft type on a flightplan in cruise between two known cities, engage the autopilot and at the same place in the profile escort the individual to the cockpit of the sim, turn the motion on, and sit back and watch what happens. I think this would be a keenly interesting exercise, and would likely settle a lot of conjecture on a.net!
 
DashTrash
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:53 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
One strong person can get through the door.

I don't know about that one.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
Not really...punch in code on keypad (all FA's should know the code), wait requisite time for the lock to wait for a flight crew "Deny" signal, which it won't receive, then walk in. We're assuming that the flight crew are incapacitated, not actively trying to keep people out of the flight deck.

Won't work in an airplane with a manual deadbolt.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:07 am

Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 26):
I imagine if several more minutes had passed with no response from the front, desisions would be made in the back.

Had they not answered however, who knows how much longer would have passed before the cabin crew would have even figured out what was going on, and decided to do something about it. You burn a lot of fuel and go very far at 450+mph even if just for 10 mins.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:42 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 22):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
there will be copies of the FCOM somewhere to review procedures, etc. It won't be pretty, but it would probably be safe.

I agree it wouldn't be pretty, and certainly chances of an incident on landing would be higher than normal, but reviewing the FCOM (or equivalent) manuals for procedures would be very difficult given the incredible diversity of formatting in use in the world (unless the pilot was, perhaps, from the same airline) and the incredible length and cumbersome nature of the manual sets for most aircraft.

I really meant to say QRH there....I was thinking mostly about using the normal procedure checklists. I agree that trying to decipher an FCOM in a high pressure emergency on an unfamiliar aircraft is probably going to be unhelpful.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 28):
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
One strong person can get through the door.

I don't know about that one.

Depends on the door, but it's true for many. But, like Maverick623 said, the "how" is not appropriate here.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 28):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
Not really...punch in code on keypad (all FA's should know the code), wait requisite time for the lock to wait for a flight crew "Deny" signal, which it won't receive, then walk in. We're assuming that the flight crew are incapacitated, not actively trying to keep people out of the flight deck.

Won't work in an airplane with a manual deadbolt.

True. That's when one goes looking for the crash axe.

Tom.
 
unattendedbag
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:34 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
One strong person can get through the door.

No, I am not telling you how.

If that one strong person doesn't know how to get through the door, then he is useless. And if you aren't going to share your knowledge, then that knowledge is useless. So, I must conclude your statement to be invalid. 

[Edited 2010-08-14 23:37:10]
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cobra27
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:10 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 1):
No. If both guys are incapacitated, the pax are in for a nasty ride.
Quoting wn700driver (Reply 13):
No. Dangerous and expensive are the two best reasons for this.

No its not the dangerous at all, you just have to push the right button

A guy who studied lets say 737 CBT (or any autoland capable) or flight manual could have no difficulties configuring for autoland even if he is not a pilot or even flown an aircraft in a lifetime
 
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ManuCH
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:46 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 27):
I would truly love to test this with a statistically valid number of 100 hour PASELs and MSFS gurus. The only way I can imagine this working would be to put an airliner simulator of a random aircraft type on a flightplan in cruise between two known cities, engage the autopilot and at the same place in the profile escort the individual to the cockpit of the sim, turn the motion on, and sit back and watch what happens. I think this would be a keenly interesting exercise, and would likely settle a lot of conjecture on a.net!

I will do the test myself, as a SEP PPL, in an LX sim (I still have to decide whether it will be an A320 or an A330, depending on availability). I will get 90 minutes of instruction, then I'll play PIC for 1 hour, with an instructor sitting in the co-pilot seat. OK, that's not the same thing - you don't get the instruction if you're just thrown in the pilot seat of an airplane in cruise with both pilots unconscious. But it will still be a nice test. Apparently most private pilots, or people with advanced MSFS experience, can land the airplane themselves at the end.

If I were in the situation of 2 incapacitated pilots, good weather and a working airplane, I'd try to find a way to call the company base and get the chief pilot on the radio, to be walked through the process of programming an auto-land. But that's pure theory, as it will hardly happen that both pilots are incapacitated if the airplane is still 100% working.
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MingToo
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:40 pm

Are there not just so many permutations of possibilities for such as event that the amount and cost of training needed to make an appreciable difference just isn't going to be cost effective ?

The priority if it happened would surely be communication with someone with expertise. Minimal training of senior cabin crew on how to operate the radio in such an emergency ? Or a clear red panic button on the radio to do it for them ?

That seems about as far as you could realistically go.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:11 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 27):
I would truly love to test this with a statistically valid number of 100 hour PASELs and MSFS gurus.

At least one airline did try it with a full motion sim, and there's a good account of it somewhere in these forums, but for the life of me I can't conjure up the right keywords to get the search engine to find it.

Tom.
 
sfotom
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:56 pm

For what it's worth, back in the 70s Flying Magazine exploring the question of how well could a GA pilot do in an airliner where the crew was incapacitated, did an article where they took a GA pilot with no heavy experience and placed him in a 727 simulator set up in cruse with the autopilot on. From what I remember, the biggest challenge was using the radio. Once the radio was operating the instructor playing the part of ATC and a called in airline pilot talked him through the procedures and numbers and the sim was landed OK.

In my own experience, I have had a fair amount of success in full motion sims talking a GA pilot through a non autoland landing as long as all systems are operating normally, VFR weather conditions, ILS giving glideslope reference, and 0 wind.

the biggest support a pilot not rated in type will need are the numbers and power settings for the aircraft, in it's current configuration/ weight. Once communications and ground support are available, I would expect that any airline pilot should be able to safely land the aircraft.
 
flymia
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:46 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 27):
I think this would be a keenly interesting exercise, and would likely settle a lot of conjecture on a.net

It would be very interesting. Mythbusters on the Discovery channel did this with one of their guys.They said he had no flying experience however these guys are very smart people. However they let him try to land an A320 Level-D sim with no help and of course it was a crash. But when talked through it with a instructor on the radio he did manage to get the plane down in a landing that people would live through, maybe some injuries. And taht is someone who does not even know how to use a FMC or AP like any advanced MSFS pilot would know. You will be amazed by how realistic MSFS is with systems and FMC etc.. Flying dynamics no, its not at all.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 33):
Apparently most private pilots, or people with advanced MSFS experience, can land the airplane themselves at the end.

I agree, I think as long as the plane is flying normally. No engine failures or anything like that. Once the person in the cockpit figures out how to use ther radios and if they are over a area with radio and radar coverage they should be able to get the plane down. Not pretty but safely.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:35 pm

My Brother who is a X-plane and MS FS fan, went into a 737 Sim, and landed it. The instructor told him that the plane suffered structural damage but he landed in one piece.

After 3 more attempts he could land it safely with some crosswind.

Si I think If you keep it cool and follow instructions you can pull through it...

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bjorn14
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:34 pm

Most senior FAs are trained to read off the checklists if one of the pilots goes down so at least they have familiarity with the cockpit. They probably could be talked down. There are a lot of FAs who have PPLs.
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Aaron747
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:50 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 27):
I would truly love to test this with a statistically valid number of 100 hour PASELs and MSFS gurus. The only way I can imagine this working would be to put an airliner simulator of a random aircraft type on a flightplan in cruise between two known cities, engage the autopilot and at the same place in the profile escort the individual to the cockpit of the sim, turn the motion on, and sit back and watch what happens. I think this would be a keenly interesting exercise, and would likely settle a lot of conjecture on a.net!

This would really be an interesting exercise. Seeing as some of the MSFS add-on software available was partially developed by real world airline pilots and systems engineers, the level of accuracy and detail is, for lack of a better word, amazing. This is not a use of FS in which you turn on the game and start tooling around - it literally takes 10-15 minutes to configure aircraft power, start the APU, and engines, adjust bleed and packs settings accordingly, and align the navigation computers. Provided that the aircraft systems and controls are working properly, I would venture to guess that a person with a few hundred hours of manipulating those systems in FS would know their way around the FMC (at least enough to find v-speeds for their weight and call up destination airports and set up an RNAV or ILS procedure), know the overhead panel, know the capabilities of LNAV and VNAV modes, and have a baseline understanding of what most EICAS messages meant. What they wouldn't know are the tangibles that have been mentioned here - how to use the radios, how to properly configure the aircraft if hand-flying, how to manage energy on descent and into the landing phase, pitch sensitivity to flap/speedbrake/ground spoiler deployment, and would have particular trouble if there was no ILS at the nearest field and any inkling of IMC weather. Crosswinds...oy vey.

Suffice to say though, it would be a fun experiment.
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FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:56 pm

You inflate the automatic pilot (and ensure it stays inflated with the tube just below the belt buckle) and then you find Ted Striker and have Rex Kramer talk him down.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 38):
My Brother who is a X-plane and MS FS fan, went into a 737 Sim, and landed it. The instructor told him that the plane suffered structural damage but he landed in one piece.

I've played on MS Flight Sim quite a bit and had a handful of lessons in a Cessna and one orientation ride in an Air Force T-37 "Tweet" (only got stick time in the air there). Last summer I got a chance to play in Delta's Level D simulators in ATL. I first flew the 777-200LR and landed it without any issues at both ATL and DXB. No damage suffered and I was able to taxi it in. I then moved over to the MD-88 sim. I did the River Visual to Runway 19 at Reagan National in DC at dusk. I didn't put the plane down on the center-line but I did set it down on the runway, in one piece, and stopped with plenty of runway to spare and was able to taxi it in.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 40):
Suffice to say though, it would be a fun experiment.

They tested this on Mythbusters. Adam first tried it without anyone to talk the him down and then with someone in the tower. On the first attempt with no guidance, he didn't even come close to the airport (he couldn't find it). But with someone to talk him down, he made a pretty good landing with the plane in one piece.

[Edited 2010-08-15 15:57:06]
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:22 pm

quote=kanban,reply=17]isn't there a slight problem of getting though the anti terrorist door to the cockpit.... ?[/quote]

Quoting flymia (Reply 37):
Mythbusters on the Discovery channel did this with one of their guys.They said he had no flying experience however these guys are very smart people. However they let him try to land an A320 Level-D sim with no help and of course it was a crash. But when talked through it with a instructor on the radio he did manage to get the plane down in a landing that people would live through, maybe some injuries. And taht is someone who does not even know how to use a FMC or AP like any advanced MSFS pilot would know.

I can't remember but I think there was no wind or anything like that. So ideal conditions. Still, an interesting datapoint.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
flymia
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:00 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 42):
I can't remember but I think there was no wind or anything like that. So ideal conditions. Still, an interesting datapoint.

I am pretty sure it was perfect conditions. Now if there is no ILS avail or it is crosswinds and IMC any non commercial pilot is going to have problems. And a MSFS flyer even with a 1000 hours in a PMDG 747 ( made with the help of boeing) is going to do a terrible job. But in good conditions, I truely believe that a advanced MSFS flyer can land a plane safely.
I am confident I could do it. I am sure many feel the same.
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PGNCS
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:58 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 30):
I really meant to say QRH there....I was thinking mostly about using the normal procedure checklists. I agree that trying to decipher an FCOM in a high pressure emergency on an unfamiliar aircraft is probably going to be unhelpful.

That would be more reasonable, yes!  
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 30):
Won't work in an airplane with a manual deadbolt.

True. That's when one goes looking for the crash axe.

...which is in the cockpit...

Quoting cobra27 (Reply 32):
Quoting DashTrash (Reply 1):
No. If both guys are incapacitated, the pax are in for a nasty ride.
Quoting wn700driver (Reply 13):
No. Dangerous and expensive are the two best reasons for this.

No its not the dangerous at all, you just have to push the right button

A guy who studied lets say 737 CBT (or any autoland capable) or flight manual could have no difficulties configuring for autoland even if he is not a pilot or even flown an aircraft in a lifetime

Yes it's just that easy. Push the right button and the airplane lands itself.  
Quoting ManuCH (Reply 33):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 27):
I would truly love to test this with a statistically valid number of 100 hour PASELs and MSFS gurus. The only way I can imagine this working would be to put an airliner simulator of a random aircraft type on a flightplan in cruise between two known cities, engage the autopilot and at the same place in the profile escort the individual to the cockpit of the sim, turn the motion on, and sit back and watch what happens. I think this would be a keenly interesting exercise, and would likely settle a lot of conjecture on a.net!

I will do the test myself, as a SEP PPL, in an LX sim (I still have to decide whether it will be an A320 or an A330, depending on availability). I will get 90 minutes of instruction, then I'll play PIC for 1 hour, with an instructor sitting in the co-pilot seat. OK, that's not the same thing - you don't get the instruction if you're just thrown in the pilot seat of an airplane in cruise with both pilots unconscious. But it will still be a nice test. Apparently most private pilots, or people with advanced MSFS experience, can land the airplane themselves at the end.

If I were in the situation of 2 incapacitated pilots, good weather and a working airplane, I'd try to find a way to call the company base and get the chief pilot on the radio, to be walked through the process of programming an auto-land. But that's pure theory, as it will hardly happen that both pilots are incapacitated if the airplane is still 100% working.

Sorry, that's not the test or the situation. It could be a B-777 or an MD-80. It could be a CRJ (with no autoland) or a B-737-300. You don't get to pick the aircraft in advance and you only know the origin and destination. That's the way it would be. I won't even get into having weather thrown in, autoland inoperative, or winds exceeding autoland limits even though we deal with those things daily. You get no instruction and only have what you would actually have in the cockpit available to you. You figure everything else out as you go. It would be a nice test, and I would actually like to see it. I don't know where the conclusion "most private pilots, or people with advanced MSFS experience, can land the airplane themselves at the end" comes from, though. Was there a similar study to give credence to this; Tom also thinks so, but I haven't seen it.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 35):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 27):
I would truly love to test this with a statistically valid number of 100 hour PASELs and MSFS gurus.

At least one airline did try it with a full motion sim, and there's a good account of it somewhere in these forums, but for the life of me I can't conjure up the right keywords to get the search engine to find it.

Tom.

I would love to see this. What were the conditions and results, do you recall? I think it's a given that it was day, VMC, no wind, with a perfectly operating aircraft.

Quoting sfotom (Reply 36):
For what it's worth, back in the 70s Flying Magazine exploring the question of how well could a GA pilot do in an airliner where the crew was incapacitated, did an article where they took a GA pilot with no heavy experience and placed him in a 727 simulator set up in cruse with the autopilot on. From what I remember, the biggest challenge was using the radio. Once the radio was operating the instructor playing the part of ATC and a called in airline pilot talked him through the procedures and numbers and the sim was landed OK.

In my own experience, I have had a fair amount of success in full motion sims talking a GA pilot through a non autoland landing as long as all systems are operating normally, VFR weather conditions, ILS giving glideslope reference, and 0 wind.

the biggest support a pilot not rated in type will need are the numbers and power settings for the aircraft, in it's current configuration/ weight. Once communications and ground support are available, I would expect that any airline pilot should be able to safely land the aircraft.

I agree with you with people who are existing airline pilots, or pilots with jet time, possibly with higher time pilots with a lot of complex time. I have also had good success as a simulator instructor talking Private pilots and non-pilots to an approximately acceptably-located impact with a runway when conditions are ideal and I am there coaching their every move, but that is not the case in this situation. The person talking the aircraft down would only be able to know what the already task-saturated pilot in the seat told him. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I am certainly not buying it without a realistic study. The MSFS cheerleaders here think that understanding systems and the automation are all there is to it (in the real world the last thing on earth I would advise someone to do in this scenario is start programming the FMC,) when in reality that's the minor part of it. The major part of it is knowing what needs to be done when, how, at what pace, where in space it should be done, and how to get there.

Quoting flymia (Reply 37):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 27):
I think this would be a keenly interesting exercise, and would likely settle a lot of conjecture on a.net

It would be very interesting. Mythbusters on the Discovery channel did this with one of their guys.They said he had no flying experience however these guys are very smart people. However they let him try to land an A320 Level-D sim with no help and of course it was a crash. But when talked through it with a instructor on the radio he did manage to get the plane down in a landing that people would live through, maybe some injuries. And taht is someone who does not even know how to use a FMC or AP like any advanced MSFS pilot would know. You will be amazed by how realistic MSFS is with systems and FMC etc.. Flying dynamics no, its not at all.

The Mythbusters episode was also wholly unrealistic when they were being talked down, as the individual talking the Mythbusters had all parameters of the sim's operation, configuration, and cockpit switchology known to him, which the real-world ATC or pilot doing the talking would NOT have. In the real world the pilot in the seat would not get coaching based on knowledge of what was going on inside the cockpit.

Quoting flymia (Reply 37):
Quoting ManuCH (Reply 33):
Apparently most private pilots, or people with advanced MSFS experience, can land the airplane themselves at the end.

I agree, I think as long as the plane is flying normally. No engine failures or anything like that. Once the person in the cockpit figures out how to use ther radios and if they are over a area with radio and radar coverage they should be able to get the plane down. Not pretty but safely.

Again I ask: what studies to support your conclusion are you citing, and what were the conditions of the experiments in those studies?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 40):
Suffice to say though, it would be a fun experiment.

Yes it would! I would (seriously) like to see it, and would be happy to run the sim for it.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 41):
I've played on MS Flight Sim quite a bit and had a handful of lessons in a Cessna and one orientation ride in an Air Force T-37 "Tweet" (only got stick time in the air there). Last summer I got a chance to play in Delta's Level D simulators in ATL. I first flew the 777-200LR and landed it without any issues at both ATL and DXB. No damage suffered and I was able to taxi it in. I then moved over to the MD-88 sim. I did the River Visual to Runway 19 at Reagan National in DC at dusk. I didn't put the plane down on the center-line but I did set it down on the runway, in one piece, and stopped with plenty of runway to spare and was able to taxi it in.

And you did this with absolutely no coaching or instruction from someone inside the simulator with you, only from help you specifically asked for via the radio?

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 41):
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 40):
Suffice to say though, it would be a fun experiment.

They tested this on Mythbusters. Adam first tried it without anyone to talk the him down and then with someone in the tower. On the first attempt with no guidance, he didn't even come close to the airport (he couldn't find it). But with someone to talk him down, he made a pretty good landing with the plane in one piece.

See above. It's much easier to talk someone down if you know every detail of what's going on inside the cockpit. In the real world that is not the case.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 42):
Quoting flymia (Reply 37):
Mythbusters on the Discovery channel did this with one of their guys.They said he had no flying experience however these guys are very smart people. However they let him try to land an A320 Level-D sim with no help and of course it was a crash. But when talked through it with a instructor on the radio he did manage to get the plane down in a landing that people would live through, maybe some injuries. And taht is someone who does not even know how to use a FMC or AP like any advanced MSFS pilot would know.

I can't remember but I think there was no wind or anything like that. So ideal conditions. Still, an interesting datapoint.

See above. The datapoint would be valid if and only if no previous instruction was received, and the guidance given from the person outside the simulator was completely blind to conditions inside the simulator, i.e. wholly dependant on the person in the sim to relay conditions accurately. If the person giving guidance is using anything other than a mental construct based on what he is being told (and queried) from inside the sim, it is invalid.

Quoting flymia (Reply 43):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 42):
I can't remember but I think there was no wind or anything like that. So ideal conditions. Still, an interesting datapoint.

I am pretty sure it was perfect conditions. Now if there is no ILS avail or it is crosswinds and IMC any non commercial pilot is going to have problems. And a MSFS flyer even with a 1000 hours in a PMDG 747 ( made with the help of boeing) is going to do a terrible job. But in good conditions, I truely believe that a advanced MSFS flyer can land a plane safely.
I am confident I could do it. I am sure many feel the same.

A lot of the people on the thread feel the same, but that does not make it true. Again, if you are an MSFS ace and use a 737 model all the time, how's that MD-90 going to work out for you? Unless you train for every kind of aircraft you fly in as a passenger, you have no idea how familiar you will be with the aircraft you would actually be flying. This is why many airlines ask applicant pilots what they have flown before giving them a pre-hire simulator checkride. You have 5,000 hours in the A-320? That B-747-200 sim looks good for you. You have 10,000 hours in the B-737? Maybe this MD-80 would be an excellent testing device. Most people do fine in these tests, which is another reason I believe that most any airline pilot could successfully (if not gracefully) fly another type if pressed into action. The evidence is certainly less credible for a Private pilot or MSFS ace.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:57 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 43):
Now if there is no ILS avail or it is crosswinds and IMC any non commercial pilot is going to have problems.

I think your best bet would be to get with a military controller and have them do a Surveillance Radar Approach...in that case, you just need someone on the ground to talk the erstwhile pilot through how to get the autopilot running and how to dial in heading, speed, and descent rate. Once they've got that, configure *way* early (gear down, flaps out, speed set) and have the controller just give them heading & descent vectors all the way to touchdown, followed by "push the brakes as hard as you can." It won't be pretty, you'll probably have a runway excursion, and the landing will be really hard, but it would also probably be survivable for everyone.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 44):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 30):
Won't work in an airplane with a manual deadbolt.

True. That's when one goes looking for the crash axe.

...which is in the cockpit...

*A* crash axe is in the cockpit. There should be another one with a flight attendant somewhere (at least on many jets).

Tom.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:05 am

As someone who has 99999999hrs on flight sim, and just over 300 TT in real planes and a CFII, and a 737 type rating course under my belt, I must say that realistically odds will be strongly against MSFS pilots making a successful landing. For one, MSFS can NOT possibly teach you stick and rudder skills. Who cares if you can grease a hand flown CATI in stormy weather in MSFS, set up the FMS beautifully and know how to use the AP, chances are, you won't even be able to get the plane in to somewhere where you could do an autoland to begin with in the heat of the moment. The FMS and most of the overhead panel would be pointless to fiddle with in such a situation to begin with. And sooner or later you WILL have to hand fly the plane on your own. Sure, I used the PMDG 737 a LOT to help train for my 737 type rating, and while it definitely helped enormously in using the FMS and setting up the MCP, NOTHING, can teach you the feel of the controls on the real thing. The only reason I never crashed or killed anyone on the level D sim was because I was a real pilot as well. However, had I still been nothing more than an MSFS ace, I'm almost certain I wouldve cratered the runway. Interestingly though, some other pilots in my same type rating class with much more time than me managed to crash the sim   
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:33 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 44):
And you did this with absolutely no coaching or instruction from someone inside the simulator with you, only from help you specifically asked for via the radio?

I didn't have anyone on the radio. I just flew around and had fun. My friend who works in the Sim department was sitting in the right seat but he kept quiet and let me fly the plane. The few things he pointed out were things I already knew, such as how the VASI operates, where the landing gear and flaps are in the cockpit. He's not an instructor or a pilot either - just a simulator maintenance tech.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 44):
I believe that most any airline pilot could successfully (if not gracefully) fly another type if pressed into action. The evidence is certainly less credible for a Private pilot or MSFS ace.

I see you are an airline pilot. Why are you so threatened by this? Why are you taking this in such a threatening manner? Your tone implies that you're insulted because someone less than a certified Zipper-Suited-Sun-God (our term for pilots in the Air Force) could land a commercial plane. First off, I hope I never have to find myself in a situation where I'm landing a commercial airliner because the pilots are incapacitated and I'm the passenger that is deemed to have the most flight experience. Second, I'm not suggesting I could successfully land the plane in the worst of conditions (low visibility, strong crosswinds, severe weather) or that I would be able to land a plane in an emergency such as mechanical or engine failures. I don't think anyone here is suggesting they could in some of the worst that pilots train for. The question is could someone whose only experience is flying Cessnas or playing on MS Flight Sim land a commercial jet in fairly ideal conditions? I used to play on MS FS quite frequently, and considering my total time flying a real plane is less than 10 hours but the fact that I still landed successfully in the Level D sim has to count for something (certainly not everything - but it does count for something). I'm not even suggesting they were the prettiest landings or approaches for that matter, especially the River Visual to 19, but the plane was in one piece and still capable of being taxied after I touched down and brought the plane to a stop. I even knew how to deploy the thrust reversers. The part I found most difficult, especially at first, was taxiing the plane with the tiller but I got somewhat used to that and could keep the plane on the taxiway and on the center-line. There are obviously many factors going in to this situation. Could they navigate to an airport? Can they get a comfortable feel for how sensitive the airplane is and what the maneuverability of the aircraft is in a short time period and do so in a manner without crashing the aircraft? All important factors that vary from person to person.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 44):

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 40):
Suffice to say though, it would be a fun experiment.

Yes it would! I would (seriously) like to see it, and would be happy to run the sim for it.

I would be happy to give it a shot. I've done it before.   I'm not talking about the curveballs you've mentioned such as severe crosswinds, engine failures, etc. But I am confident I could put it on the runway in a survivable (and reusable) condition in fairly ideal conditions.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 44):
Again, if you are an MSFS ace and use a 737 model all the time, how's that MD-90 going to work out for you?

I went from landing a 777-200LR at ATL and Dubai to landing an MD-88 at Reagan National's Runway 19 in about 15 minutes moving from one Level D sim to another. I didn't have any issues going from one plane to the other when it came to the basics of flying. While the exact set-up of every commercial cockpit is different from one type to another, the basic set-up is still fairly simple - yoke or joystick, rudder pedals, throttle, flaps, spoilers, landing gear, etc. On most aircraft they are roughly located in the same position in the cockpit and on the instrument panel. The key control systems are all located in basically the same position on every commercial bird as are the most important instruments - attitude indicator, altitude, airspeed, vertical airspeed indicator, heading indicator, etc. We aerospace engineers (and our human factors counterparts) are pretty good at setting up these sort of things. We aerospace engineers are also pretty good at designing these aircraft so they handle pretty well, especially in ideal conditions, and can withstand a rougher than usual landing in the less than ideal conditions.   

[Edited 2010-08-15 22:20:01]
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
flymia
Posts: 6806
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:02 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 44):
A lot of the people on the thread feel the same, but that does not make it true. Again, if you are an MSFS ace and use a 737 model all the time, how's that MD-90 going to work out for you? Unless you train for every kind of aircraft you fly in as a passenger, you have no idea how familiar you will be with the aircraft you would actually be flying. This is why many airlines ask applicant pilots what they have flown before giving them a pre-hire simulator checkride. You have 5,000 hours in the A-320? That B-747-200 sim looks good for you. You have 10,000 hours in the B-737? Maybe this MD-80 would be an excellent testing device. Most people do fine in these tests, which is another reason I believe that most any airline pilot could successfully (if not gracefully) fly another type if pressed into action. The evidence is certainly less credible for a Private pilot or MSFS ace.

Well first thing first I think a lot of the experience MSFS user have experience in all types of aircraft. I know how to set up the FMC or a Fokker, Newer Boeing and old boeing and MD-80 aircraft. I am fimular with INS naviagation and systems of older aircraft like the 747-200 or 727. I dont think I would have a problem calling ATC, figuring out where the plane was, and setting up the AP and FMC. Again I am not saying any non experience real pilot could land a plane well and safely in anything less then almost perfect conditions. Pilots dont train years and years for nothing. I am not saying that a MSFS pilotc can do a real airline pilots job at all. Especially at the speed and efficiency airline pilots do it at. And there is NO way any MSFS or private pilot would be able to handle bad weather or an emergency situation like an airline pilot could. However put someone like me and the thousands of other people who spend a few hours a week flying around MSFS in highly detailed add on airplanes and I am very confident they would be able to land the aircraft in just about perfect conditions with no abnormalities to the airplane. Of course that is a perfect world story and the wolrd is not perfect. Thankfully a situation like this is highly unlikely in large commercial aircraft.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
PGNCS
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RE: Is There A Back Up Plan With No Flight Crew?

Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:22 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 47):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 44):
And you did this with absolutely no coaching or instruction from someone inside the simulator with you, only from help you specifically asked for via the radio?

I didn't have anyone on the radio. I just flew around and had fun. My friend who works in the Sim department was sitting in the right seat but he kept quiet and let me fly the plane. The few things he pointed out were already things I knew, such as how the VASI operates. He's not an instructor or pilot either - just a simulator maintenance tech.

Then your jaunts around the pattern went better than I would have expected.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 47):
I see you are an airline pilot.

I am.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 47):
Why are you so threatened by this?

I am not.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 47):
Why are you taking this in such a threatening manner?

I am not.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 47):
Your tone implies that you're insulted because someone less than a certified Zipper-Suited-Sun-God (our term for pilots in the Air Force) could land a commercial plane.

I am not insulted, nor do I in any way consider airline pilots superhuman. I never said otherwise, even when I was in the Air Force. The fact of the matter is this: I have a LOT of time flying airliners of various types (15,000+ hours) and a lot of simulator instruction given (4,000+ hours.) I have seen experienced pilots struggle in new types after successfully completing ground school and fixed base simulation. I have seen Private pilots fly well. I have never seen non-pilots fly well at all, and I used to participate in numerous joyrides given and sold to the public by the owner of the simulators I instructed in. If you did as well as you say, congratulations, most would not. I'm in no way threatened by the thought of a non-pilot doing well in the simulator; most can't even manage to remotely get the aircraft in trim, though, and I believe that to be much more typical than your experience, as does Fly2HMO, who has a MUCH greater background in MSFS than I do. Brain surgeons and plumbers aren't threatened by me: I can't do neurosurgery or braze a joint on copper piping; why should I be threatened by them? (I've seen both in the simulator on joyrides, by the way. The plumber did better.)

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 47):
The question is could someone whose only experience is flying Cessnas or playing on MS Flight Sim land a commercial jet in fairly ideal conditions?

You think yes; I am highly dubious. My first-hand experience supports my view.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 47):
There are obviously many factors going in to this situation. Could they navigate to an airport? Can they get a comfortable feel for how sensitive the airplane is and what the maneuverability of the aircraft is in a short time period and do so in a manner without crashing the aircraft? All important factors that vary from person to person.

That's pretty much paraphrasing what I said in my earlier replies.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 47):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 44):

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 40):
Suffice to say though, it would be a fun experiment.

Yes it would! I would (seriously) like to see it, and would be happy to run the sim for it.

I would be happy to give it a shot.

I would LOVE to see it.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 47):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 44):
Again, if you are an MSFS ace and use a 737 model all the time, how's that MD-90 going to work out for you?

I went from landing a 777-200LR at ATL and Dubai to landing an MD-88 at Reagan National's Runway 19 in about 15 minutes moving from one Level D sim to another.

It sounds like you did well flying around the pattern.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 47):
While the exact set-up of every commercial cockpit is different from one type to another, the basic set-up is still fairly simple - yoke or joystick, rudder pedals, throttle, flaps, spoilers, landing gear, etc.

But recognizing the controls and knowing what to do with them when and how is a totally different issue.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 47):
We aerospace engineers (and our human factors counterparts) are pretty good at setting up these sort of things.

In some designs more than others. I never said otherwise. I do not believe that flying around the pattern in VMC and calm winds is the same as making all the decisions involved in a successful arrival from a random point on a route at cruise. You seem to have done well in the physical manipulation of the simulator; congratulations. It sounds like you did much better than an average person of your experience would. Perhaps you could pull this off. Remembering my experience with pilots (and non-pilots) of every imaginable experience level in the sim, I am still extraordinarily dubious.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 47):
We aerospace engineers also pretty good at designing these things so they handle pretty well, especially in ideal conditions, and can withstand a rougher than usual landing in the less than ideal conditions.

I never said otherwise, and it's good thing too if this situation occurs.

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