AR385
Topic Author
Posts: 6763
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

BA Cockpit Crew Takes Off Using Less Runway

Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:33 am

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4306396f&opt=0

I chose to post this on these forum because on the civil av one it would have turned into a :

1) An A vs B bashing feast
2) Personal attacks on the crew
3) Armchair piloting

I have some questions regarding this incident:

1) First of all, why would a trained, professional BA crew choose to take off on an intersection on an airport that is already one with a short runway. Granted, sea level, light load, but still? If you have the whole runway, why choose to take-off from an intersection?
2) Can a Captain overrride an airport tower and actually suggest from where it would be more convenient for them to take-off? Does he have that authority?
3) Does BA pressure its crews so much on schedule keeping that BA Captains end up doing this type of thing?
4) I once saw an AR 747-SP take off from an intersection at MEX. It was the flight bound for LIM, so it might have been light. Trusting my memory, I would say that intersection was at the end of what in the late 80´s was the end of the international gates.

I do not intend to judge the captain. The real reason I want to learn about this is because it does seem a very strange incident to me. In that context, was the captain:

1)Negligent
2)Irresponsible
3)Suffering from get-there-itis
4)BA OPS and Scheduling pressure
5) Error tunnel vision

Again, I do not want to bash any company or crew member. This report simply seems very interesting to me and I wanted to find out as much info as possible and in this site, it can only be done in this forum. I appreciate any contributions.

Regards., AR385
 
covert
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 1:02 am

RE: BA Cockpit Crew Takes Off Using Less Runway

Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:49 am

Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
2) Can a Captain overrride an airport tower and actually suggest from where it would be more convenient for them to take-off? Does he have that authority?

I won't address the other questions, because that would define speculation, but yes a pilot may request an intersection departure, which in this case they did, and it was approved. Also, not sure of the source, but evidently taxiway A is also approved by the company, BA for departure use. Unfortunately, however, due to lack of signage and other factors the aircrew mistook taxiway B for A. ATC also apparently saw them at the wrong intersection and failed to react as well.

Fortunately the aircraft became airborne, however their T/O was calculated assuming 1900+ meters available. That means that their V1 was calculated using that runway length, and had they had to RTO, they would likely be eating grass.

And there could be many reasons for selecting an intersection departure, and in this case we don't know why, only that they were lucky.
none
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: BA Cockpit Crew Takes Off Using Less Runway

Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:36 am

Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
1) First of all, why would a trained, professional BA crew choose to take off on an intersection on an airport that is already one with a short runway. Granted, sea level, light load, but still? If you have the whole runway, why choose to take-off from an intersection?

It can mean a shorter taxi, which is always nice. However, it should be noted that departures from that intersection weren't authorized by BA (due to the length). One has to figure that the captain did not intentionally disregard that restriction (which would mean that the FO would be disregarding it as well), which means that they most likely thought they were somewhere else on the airport.

Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
2) Can a Captain overrride an airport tower and actually suggest from where it would be more convenient for them to take-off? Does he have that authority?

No. They can request an intersection, but the tower does not have to give it to them.

Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
3) Does BA pressure its crews so much on schedule keeping that BA Captains end up doing this type of thing?

Very doubtful.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Centre
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:37 pm

RE: BA Cockpit Crew Takes Off Using Less Runway

Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:58 am

by reading the title alone, I thought the passengers who warned the crew were A.net members!!
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: BA Cockpit Crew Takes Off Using Less Runway

Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:50 am

Quoting covert (Reply 1):
I won't address the other questions, because that would define speculation, but yes a pilot may request an intersection departure, which in this case they did, and it was approved.

In this case it was a mistake by the crew since they did not request an intersection B departure, somehow they goofed and departed from the wrong intersection.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...lt-777-take-off-after-taxiing.html

Quoting Flight International:
Despite specifically requesting a departure from 'A', the aircraft mistakenly taxied instead for the 'B' intersection, near the runway's midpoint, leaving available take-off distance of just 1,220m (4,000ft).


I always get a window seat and pay attention during takeoff and if I'd been on this flight I would've been scared sh*tless if we'd rotated on the numbers and barely cleared the end of the runway.
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: BA Cockpit Crew Takes Off Using Less Runway

Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:00 pm

I'm not sure what your question really is......the intersection at A was approved as requested so yes you can do that. The T/O was made from B which was done in error and could have been a disaster. It appears to have been a case of loss of SA.
 
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NZ1
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RE: BA Cockpit Crew Takes Off Using Less Runway

Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:07 pm

Please discuss this topic here Passengers Attempt To Halt BA 777 Takeoff... (by JoeCanuck Sep 1 2010 in Civil Aviation)

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