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TK787
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Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:57 pm

Hello everyone,
I have asked this question over at Turkish Aviation threads but no answers.
TK is starting IST-LAX next March non stop with 77Ws. This would be TK's longest flight at around 6871 miles.
It might be well over 13 hours some days due to head winds.

As far as we know, these 77Ws will have 28J/63Y+/246Y

So,
What will be the crew requirements for this (cockpit/FA's) and how other airlines with similar routes handle it?

Thank you.
 
oly720man
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:43 pm

My only experience of being in the cockpit on a long flight was MAN-FRA-HKG with CX in a B744 and there were 2 cockpit crews. IIRC from FRA-HKG, one crew did the take off and first few hours, then a second crew took over and did the landing. I presume that on-duty time limits mean that the crew handling the take off couldn't then do the landing 13 or however many hours later.

I don't think such long flights operate with two sets of cabin crew.

http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com...iation:ultra-long-haul-ulh-flights
http://www.fromthecockpit.com/Crew_Rest.html
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Tristarsteve
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:04 pm

The answer is of course it depends.
Up to 8 hrs, two pilots are enough. But with some authorities this is a strict limit, others go over up to 10 hours.
Then over this a 3 man crew will do up to about 12 hours, with some sort of bunk available..
Then a four man crew is required.
Every airline and national authority has its own rules, but my experience is that the FAA has the tightest rules on this, but if you make a landing and then carry on they let you fly longer.

For cabin crew the biggest requirement is somewhere to rest. But whether this is a bunkroom, or a couple of economy seats depends on the clout of the cabin crew union.

I remember when the B747-400 was introduced, and planes started flying over 10 hours. At first the cabin crew wanted spare crew carried on board, but after massive arguments it didn't happen.

I have found that as soon as someone states a rule on crewing on here, someone else will quote a different one!
 
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TK787
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:42 pm

Thanks for the answers;
From what I know TK has crew rest areas in the belly of the 330/340 aircraft. Same with the pilots, usually having 3 on board and 330/340 have a pilot rest area in the cockpit.
I have seen pics of 77Ws having space for two to sleep over the cockpit area.
Also, since TK will be operating to LAX, does FAA has a say on how many pilots should be on board?
Thanks.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:22 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 3):
does FAA has a say on how many pilots should be on board?

No. Its up to the Turkish Authorities

Many transatlantic routes are about 8 hrs long. If it goes one minute over 8 hours, the FAA insist on a third pilot.
Most other authorities do not!
 
413X3
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:32 pm

Quoting oly720man (Reply 1):
one crew did the take off and first few hours, then a second crew took over and did the landing.

I've never heard of such a thing. There are probably 2 relief pilots on board but they only work the cockpit when in cruise. The same pilots who took off are always the same pilots who land.
 
Luftfahrer
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:44 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 3):
I have seen pics of 77Ws having space for two to sleep over the cockpit area.

Hi!
Could you define what you mean with "to sleep over the cockpit area", please? A basic crew rest bunk in the belly or actually in/near the cockpit itself? If you are able to, you can also share the pics! Thanks!

[Edited 2010-09-22 14:48:28]
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tdscanuck
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:08 am

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 6):
Could you define what you mean with "to sleep over the cockpit area", please? A basic crew rest bunk in the belly or actually in/near the cockpit itself? If you are able to, you can also share the pics!

There is no crew rest space directly over the cockpit (that's occupied by the P-5 panel and the CB panels).

However, the 777 does have an option for an overhead crew rest. If fitted, the access is through what looks like a closet door in the monument just aft of the flight deck door, and the crew rest itself is in the crown of the aircraft above the center stow bins.

Tom.
 
Vmcavmcg
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:50 am

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 5):
I've never heard of such a thing. There are probably 2 relief pilots on board but they only work the cockpit when in cruise. The same pilots who took off are always the same pilots who land.


Not true. Some airlines use a double crew with 2 Captains and 2 F/Os. And in that case, you could have the same crew do the takeoff and landing while other airlines have one crew do the takeoff and the other do the landing.
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bikerthai
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:08 pm

This link shows you where the cockpit crew rest is on the 777.

http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices.../commercial/crewrest_location.html

bikerthai
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bikerthai
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:14 pm

BTW,

The 787 crew rest would be similar.

http://www.gorbico.com/images/787cutaway.jpg

The front crew rest is for the flight deck crew, the aft crew rest (near the vertical stabilizer) is for the cabin crew.

bikerthai

[Edited 2010-09-23 12:15:02]
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Luftfahrer
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:35 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 7):
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 9):

Thanks for the insight. I had never really expected there was a crew rest in the upper section of the aircraft, rather, I only knew about the bunks in the belly, or, on some aircraft, the pilots can take a rest on blocked seats in the First/Business class.
'He resembled a pilot, which to a seaman is trustworthiness personified.' Joseph Conrad
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:01 pm

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 11):
I only knew about the bunks in the belly, or, on some aircraft, the pilots can take a rest on blocked seats in the First/Business class.

The long range BA B777 used to have bunks behind the flight deck.
They have been replaced with an overhead pilot crew rest. By juggling the galley around it has made room for some more seats.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:04 pm

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 11):
I had never really expected there was a crew rest in the upper section of the aircraft, rather, I only knew about the bunks in the belly,

Boeing touted the crown crew rest as a way to increase revenue by avoiding losing passenger seats or lower lobe cargo.
The design was done approximately 8-9 years ago for the 777.

I bet if Airbus can do this (without infringing on any patent) they would do it too.

bikerthai

[Edited 2010-09-23 13:04:35]

[Edited 2010-09-23 13:06:17]
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tdscanuck
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:13 am

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 10):
The 787 crew rest would be similar.

There a picture of it from the Farnborough airshow:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Brimley



Tom.
 
thegeek
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:07 am

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 5):
Quoting oly720man (Reply 1):
one crew did the take off and first few hours, then a second crew took over and did the landing.

I've never heard of such a thing. There are probably 2 relief pilots on board but they only work the cockpit when in cruise. The same pilots who took off are always the same pilots who land.

QF do it this way almost exclusively. Cpt & F/O must be in the front seats on take off & landing, "Second Officers" can be in the cockpit so long as either the Cpt or F/O is on duty between top of climb and start of decent. Pretty sure that the second officer is trained to be legal to land the plane from the right seat.

In Australia IIRC limits are:
8 hours block time & 11 hours duty time for 2 man crew
12:45 duty time for a 3 man crew
17:00 duty time for a 4 man crew

What this means is that the second officers are effectively deadheading on SYD-SIN (which continues to LHR or FRA) for example.

Second officer is the entry level pilot position. Why would you want that job?
 
travelavnut
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:30 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 14):
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 10):
The 787 crew rest would be similar.

There a picture of it from the Farnborough airshow:

I think I would sleep quite well in that bed!! Throw in some turbulence, my iPod, a reading light and a book and I wouldn´t mind a 12 hour flight  
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Starlionblue
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:15 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 15):
QF do it this way almost exclusively. Cpt & F/O must be in the front seats on take off & landing, "Second Officers" can be in the cockpit so long as either the Cpt or F/O is on duty between top of climb and start of decent. Pretty sure that the second officer is trained to be legal to land the plane from the right seat.

CX also has Second Officers. I believe some airlines refer to them as "cruise pilots".
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:08 pm

Quoting TravelAVNut (Reply 16):
I think I would sleep quite well in that bed!! Throw in some turbulence, my iPod, a reading light and a book and I wouldn´t mind a 12 hour flight

I heard somewhere that Boeing was considering something like this for the wide bodies (perhaps the 747--8I) as a selling point. They would build extra "modules" to put up in the crown so folks can rent out for the flight. Don't know if the cost analysis panned out.

bikerthai
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c5load
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:48 pm

I have a question somewhat related to the topic: What constitutes a crew rest area? Does it have to be completely secluded? Have its own lavatory? I know on the 764 (at least for DL), seat 7FG (when it was still F config.) would be spaced further back due to being crew rest seats. When I flew on the 763ER, there were two seats (maybe row 13?) that in the middle, were BizElite seats and they had curtains on both sides, and those were crew rest seats. But on some larger aircraft, it seems to be totally separated from the main cabin.

Those seats on the 764 that were supposed to be crew rest seats wouldn't be very comfortable IMO, due to the fact that the seats are right in the midst of first class with no separation whatsoever. So what do airlines constitute fair crew rest seating?

Picture of the 764 crew rest seats:


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Kevin E. Cook

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tdscanuck
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Sat Sep 25, 2010 12:27 am

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 18):
I heard somewhere that Boeing was considering something like this for the wide bodies (perhaps the 747--8I) as a selling point.

It was called SkyLoft. http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...oeings-skylofts-gets-new-bert.html

Quoting c5load (Reply 19):
What constitutes a crew rest area? Does it have to be completely secluded?

Not be any regulatory definition, but in several cases the pilots' contracts specify what kind of crew rest accomodation must be provided. As you might imagine, it's extremely variable between airlines all the way from nothing (you get a pax seat) to a completely isolated crew rest.

Quoting c5load (Reply 19):
Have its own lavatory?

I've never seen that yet.

Tom.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:30 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 20):
Quoting c5load (Reply 19):
Have its own lavatory?

I've never seen that yet.

The overhead pilot crew rest on the BA777 has its own lavatory.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:59 pm

Quoting tristarsteve (Reply 21):

The overhead pilot crew rest on the BA777 has its own lavatory.

That's *awesome*...airplane scavenger hunt time!

Tom.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:17 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 22):
Quoting tristarsteve (Reply 21):

The overhead pilot crew rest on the BA777 has its own lavatory.

That's *awesome*...airplane scavenger hunt time!

Little story here.
BA has fitted overhead pilot crew rest (OHCR) to about 8 B777 in the last two years. It is not a Boeing supplied system, came from another supplier, and it has a lavatory.

Now when BA ordered their new fleet of B777-300ER, they decided to buy the Boeing fitted OHCR. Looking in the catalogue it came either with, or without a lavatory. BA ordered the one with the lavatory so it was the same as the B777-200ER s they already had. This caused Boeing a problem, as they had never built one before with a lavatory.
 
speedmarque
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:43 am

Quoting tristarsteve (Reply 23):

Interesting. As far as I can see in the literature given to us Cabin Crew, the 77W at BA does not feature a lav in the OFCR. Can you confirm it does as the plan I have shows a closet where the Lav is on a 772.

Cheers
 
Tod
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:52 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 13):
Boeing touted the crown crew rest as a way to increase revenue by avoiding losing passenger seats or lower lobe cargo.
The design was done approximately 8-9 years ago for the 777.

Only after Flight Structures Inc of Marysville WA designed and installed door 3 overhead crewrests in 777 for BA and two other airlines.
 
Tod
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:55 pm

Quoting c5load (Reply 19):
I have a question somewhat related to the topic: What constitutes a crew rest area? Does it have to be completely secluded? Have its own lavatory?

Some of the BA 744 have a lav in the door 5 overhead crew rest.

Many 744 have the flight deck door installed between the 4U and 6U lavs in the upper deck making the 4U (forward most) lav only accessable from the flight deck and the flight deck crew rest located just aft of the FD on the left side.
 
767eng
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:16 am

Quoting speedmarque (Reply 24):
Interesting. As far as I can see in the literature given to us Cabin Crew, the 77W at BA does not feature a lav in the OFCR. Can you confirm it does as the plan I have shows a closet where the Lav is on a 772.

Cheers

Yes it does, it's halfway up the staircase to the crew rest area.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:24 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 15):
QF do it this way almost exclusively. Cpt & F/O must be in the front seats on take off & landing, "Second Officers" can be in the cockpit so long as either the Cpt or F/O is on duty between top of climb and start of decent. Pretty sure that the second officer is trained to be legal to land the plane from the right seat.

I think you mean Second Officers can be at the controls so long as either Capt or FO is on duty during the cruise.
Also yes the SOs are trained to land the plane etc but don't unless its an emergency (pilot incapacitation/illness, etc) situation. They would occupy whichever seat the able Capt or FO isn't occupying... ie If the Capt is ill then the FO will occupy the left seat... keeps the primary pilot (Capt/FO) in their usual seat. Of course the FO would be in command from the right seat in that example.
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zeke
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:58 am

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):

What will be the crew requirements for this (cockpit/FA's) and how other airlines with similar routes handle it?

Under EU-OPS 3 crew would be able to go up to 15 hours duty, that is the flight time plus pre-flight and post flight activities. A number of factors limit the maximum duty time, time of start, number of sectors, rest available, previous duty etc.

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 5):

I've never heard of such a thing. There are probably 2 relief pilots on board but they only work the cockpit when in cruise. The same pilots who took off are always the same pilots who land.

Not with CX, but I know SQ have used "heavy" crews in the past.

Quoting c5load (Reply 19):
What constitutes a crew rest area? Does it have to be completely secluded? Have its own lavatory?

1) depends on the regulator and the type of "rest" required.
2) No, again depends on the regulator and the type of "rest" required.
3) No
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Starlionblue
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:39 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 15):
Second officer is the entry level pilot position. Why would you want that job?


Because airlines which have second officers hire pilots with little experience at that level. It is a necessary step towards becoming a first officer.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:22 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 30):
Because airlines which have second officers hire pilots with little experience at that level. It is a necessary step towards becoming a first officer.

So I expect all the flying they get is on the simulator.
 
aklrno
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:44 am

Don't the NZ 747s have a lav in the cockpit and crew rest area? Their are two upper deck passenger lavs in the rear of the upper deck but I have never seen the crew come out to use them.
 
Tod
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RE: Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?

Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:26 pm

Quoting aklrno (Reply 32):
Don't the NZ 747s have a lav in the cockpit and crew rest area? Their are two upper deck passenger lavs in the rear of the upper deck but I have never seen the crew come out to use them.

Their configuration when new was two aft r/h lavs (8U and 16U ) in the upper deck, plus a 4U lav immediately aft of the flight deck and also on the right. A crew rest occupied the space on the left, aft of the flight deck.

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