71Zulu
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US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:51 am

US Airways had a football charter for Marshall going to Southern Miss and normally they would land at Hattiesburg (PIB), however this flight went down to GPT and they had to bus back up.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...5/history/20101001/1800Z/KHTS/KGPT

Somebody asked the coach about this on his radio show and he said they couldn't land at PIB because it had no control tower. Never seen a PIB charter go to GPT before.

Is it a US Airways policy that a control tower is required?

What about other airlines?
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roseflyer
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:25 pm

I would have thought that they would be willing to land at an uncontrolled airport.

Quite a few airports that have commercial service have limited control tower operation hours. Other airlines have regularly scheduled flights to airports that are uncontrolled.

[Edited 2010-10-07 08:27:03]
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pilotpip
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:30 pm

There may be a requirement in their ops spec that they land at a towered airport during normal operations or charter flights. The other thing to consider is that many times at rural airports when the tower closes, the CFR closes for the day as well. CFR on the field is a 121 requirement.

Last but not least, the two carriers I've flown for have required an instrument approach into non-towered airports. Can't do a visual. Perhaps the field didn't have an approach to meet the weather conditions and they had to divert.
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Maverick623
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:30 pm

Quoting 71Zulu (Thread starter):

Is it a US Airways policy that a control tower is required?

No.

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 2):
the CFR closes for the day as well.

This is the most likely reason.
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KELPkid
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:38 pm

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 2):
Last but not least, the two carriers I've flown for have required an instrument approach into non-towered airports. Can't do a visual. Perhaps the field didn't have an approach to meet the weather conditions and they had to divert.

That actually seems (to me) to be more dangerous than flying a visual into an uncontrolled field. Nothing like shooting an ILS into an uncontrolled field when you're going against the flow   Admittedly an extreme case, but I did lots of practice ILS'es into "indian country" up here in the Pacifc NW, a particular uncontrolled field where the active was usually not the ILS runway, and glider pilots and other yahoos who were VFR only and didn't like us flight school students using the field would do wierd things...and be rude to us on the unicom!

Or do you mean that the field must have an instrument approach to be considered as a viable destination in your ops spec?
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pilotpip
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:38 pm

No, I mean we may not conduct a visual approach at a non-towered field or a field where the tower is closed. It's against our ops spec.

Glider pilots and other "yahoos" aren't making too many approaches at midnight when the tower is closed at the airports we serve and I'm using both radios, one is monitoring unicom and I usually start making position reports about 20 miles out.
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packcheer
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:02 pm

When I was at NC State we played at Southern Mississippi as well. We chartered a DL 752 and we could not fly into Hattiesburg either. We flew into Jackson (JAN) and stayed the night, then bussed down the morning of the game. No reason why was given, but it was a long drive, even with the escort.
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pilotpip
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:40 am

May also be an issue with the runway capabilities. Perhaps it's not able to handle a 100,000 pound plus airliner.
DMI
 
71Zulu
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:04 am

Thanks for the replies everyone. Don't think it is a weight issue. In 2007, ATA brought an L-1011 in when USM went to BOI. So far this year both JetBlue and AA has been there. The CFR is supposed to be at the airport standing by whenever an airliner lands and departs. We'll see what happens the rest of the year.
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Goldenshield
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:30 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 4):
and glider pilots and other yahoos who were VFR only and didn't like us flight school students using the field would do wierd things.

When you've only got one chance to land, plus have the general right of way, it's not a wierd thing at all; just the nature of things.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 4):
Or do you mean that the field must have an instrument approach to be considered as a viable
destination in your ops spec?

This would depend on the deviations list, but for the most part, if you fly IFR 121, it's pretty much guaranteed that any airport in the C070 will have at least one viable approach based on land based navigational aids.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:29 pm

What about airport fire service? In many cases fire service is only available as long as the tower is occupied.
I think to have fire and rescue service available at the landing airport is part of the FAR 121 requirements.

Jan
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71Zulu
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:47 pm

There is no tower at PIB, it is an uncontrolled field. The airlines must notify the airport manager in advance that they will be arriving so he can make sure the crash and fire equipment is standing by when you arrive and depart. PIB only shows as AARF Index A. Do they supplement that for airline ops?
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NBGSkyGod
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:10 pm

At my airport, operators are required to notify arpt ops 24hours prior to landing if they are carrying more than 30 pax. The ARFF truck is manned 30 mins prior to 30mins after arrival and departure, even if the tower is closed. One time Dartmouth played in the NCAA Basketball tourney, chartered an Express Jet ERJ-145. They landed just as the tower closed, then departed about 30 minutes later, but the ARFF was there the whole time.
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Goldenshield
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:43 pm

Of course, if the flight is scheduled, then there's no need for prior notification. The airport already knows that you're coming.
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rduoodl
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:04 pm

Nick Saban absolutely flipped **** a few weeks ago when we told him his RDU-TCL would have to refiled for BHM. He couldn't understand why runway lights were important during a night arrival....
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RICBWI
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:25 pm

TCL doesn't have runway lights??? I thought teams fly out of there frequently after games--especially baksetball? A temp. situation I guess?

Did they divert to BHM??
 
rduoodl
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:47 pm

Quoting RICBWI (Reply 15):
TCL doesn't have runway lights??? I thought teams fly out of there frequently after games--especially baksetball? A temp. situation I guess?

Did they divert to BHM??

It was brought to the dispatcher's attention before the flight departed RDU. They may have just been out-of-service. All the extra time to refile and run new paperwork didn't help. They probably would have been better off if they just departed and diverted. I figured he would have been in a pretty good mood after smashing the Dukies....I was wrong.
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7673mech
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:24 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
What about airport fire service? In many cases fire service is only available as long as the tower is occupied.
I think to have fire and rescue service available at the landing airport is part of the FAR 121 requirements.

Good point - that is what the earlier posters meant by CFR.
 
pilotpip
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:48 am

Quoting RDUOODL (Reply 14):
Nick Saban absolutely flipped **** a few weeks ago when we told him his RDU-TCL would have to refiled for BHM. He couldn't understand why runway lights were important during a night arrival....

That's why Saban is a football coach and not a pilot/dispatcher.
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dinker225
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:45 pm

Used to work at EGE for an airline. Got a call from the tower late one night when our last flight of the night was delayed. They simply asked if our airline required the tower to be open for arrival. I'd never heard such a thing and said no but inquired why they called. They said AA required a tower to be open. During the winter AA has alot of ops into the airport and apparently the controllers were happy to sit around for them if they were late.

Maybe there it has to do with the fact that EGE is deep in the mountains and at night they need it open?

Dinker
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71Zulu
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:51 am

Must have been an EGE thing because AA has been to PIB before and there is no tower there.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...6/history/20100916/1930Z/KFOE/KPIB
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Goldenshield
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:26 am

A possibility is that AA doesn't want to spend the time/money training crews for the ILS 25 at EGE. This leaves an LDA approach with high mins (1800-3) or a GPS approach with even higher mins (2400-3.) However, the LDA approach does not require that the tower be open, except via a note in the "Alternate minimums" section of the 11-1 page. AA may have also added a restriction to their ops requiring that the note would apply to all operations.
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AAR90
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:04 pm

Quoting dinker225 (Reply 19):
They said AA required a tower to be open.

AA has standard procedures for operations when a control tower is closed. At EGE, the only additional requirement is that the "runway conditions can be verified with Operations or Dispatch."

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 21):
A possibility is that AA doesn't want to spend the time/money training crews for the ILS 25 at EGE.

According to the FAA there is no ILS-25 approach for EGE. Only LOC/DME-25 and RNAV(GPS)-25 (which AA helped design originally).

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 21):
AA may have also added a restriction to their ops requiring that the note would apply to all operations.

Nope, see above.
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Goldenshield
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:19 pm

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 22):
According to the FAA there is no ILS-25 approach for EGE. Only LOC/DME-25 and RNAV(GPS)-25 (which AA helped design originally).

You're right, because it's a plate you have to pay for from Jeppesen. Like I said, AA didn't want to bother spending the money to train the crews that might only fly in once every few years, and to add to that, buy the special plate that affords vastly improved minima.
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AAR90
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:40 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 23):
You're right, because it's a plate you have to pay for from Jeppesen.

In all honestly, I do not believe you. If the FAA has approved a full ILS approach to EGE, it has yet to list it in the FAA databases. AA would LOVE to obtain authorization for an EGE approach with lower minimums and cost is not the issue --AA paid dearly to design and qualify the RNAV(GPS) approach to EGE... even with the higher minimums (back-up for when LOC goes "down"). To date, there is no full ILS approved for EGE.
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:10 am

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 24):
In all honestly, I do not believe you. If the FAA has approved a full ILS approach to EGE, it has yet to list it in the FAA databases

Yup, 100% with you. If it was a private use airport, I could & would understand not being able to find the approach plate floating around the internet. But at a public use airport, they are going to be open for everyone.

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Goldenshield
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:53 am

Don't believe me all you want, the plate still exists: ILS OR LOC/DME RWY 25. Your lack of access to the approach is not my problem.

The Silver ILS for RNO doesn't show up on Airnav; this doesn't mean it doesn't exist, either.
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atct
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:24 pm

Quoting dinker225 (Reply 19):
the controllers were happy to sit around for them if they were late.

Overtime  
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HAL
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:33 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 4):
Admittedly an extreme case, but I did lots of practice ILS'es into "indian country" up here in the Pacifc NW, a particular uncontrolled field where the active was usually not the ILS runway, and glider pilots and other yahoos who were VFR only and didn't like us flight school students using the field would do wierd things...and be rude to us on the unicom!

AWO, BVS, or PWT?  

HAL
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dinker225
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:54 am

Quoting atct (Reply 27):
Overtime


You got that right. That time of night there was nothing going on at the airport. Maybe an odd biz jet arrival. I'd sit around for time and a half too for one delayed flight!

Dinker
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Northwest727
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:31 pm

Granted, US Airway Express (operated by Piedmont) is a separate regional airline contracted by US Airways, but they just landed in HVN the other night after the tower closed. XJ I have seen operate out of airports (LBE and APN, to be exact) when they're tower was closed, either early in the morning or late at night.
 
KELPkid
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RE: US Airways: Control Tower Required?

Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:54 am

Quoting HAL (Reply 28):
AWO, BVS, or PWT?

HAL

Actually,

It is MMV to which I refer  

No offense to anyone who regularly uses it...
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